Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

13567162

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    They are played to drive not comment on the colour of bus or the routes. Once their terms and conditions don't change they should be told to drive the bus or we'll find someone else who's willing to

    But their T&Cs will change.

    Marked in drivers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    brokenarms wrote: »
    But their T&Cs will change.

    Marked in drivers.

    How will they change if they get the same starts, lunches and finishes?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    brokenarms wrote: »
    I still dont know how this is going to go through with the unions.

    How do you take a marked in route off one driver let alone a 100 drivers without an all out strike?

    Even painting the busses to look the same as go ahead will be an issue.

    I tried to explain Bus connect to a marked in long term driver last week, and he laughed at me.
    I cant see it happen anytime soon. I hope it does happen, but I know how resistant to change people can be.

    There will be lots of friction.

    I assume you are a DB driver.

    If so can I ask you a question about how the marking in system works. Are drivers who are marked in ever moved from one route to another from time to time? Say a route is discountinued just like many routes were during network direct what would happen drivers who were marked in those routes, would be marked in on a different route or do they revert back to being spare?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I assume you are a DB driver.

    If so can I ask you a question about how the marking in system works. Are drivers who are marked in ever moved from one route to another from time to time? Say a route is discountinued just like many routes were during network direct what would happen drivers who were marked in those routes, would be marked in on a different route or do they revert back to being spare?

    As marking in is at least 8 years away for me, I cant answer that.

    But i know they drive the same route each day unless they swap or do overtime.
    They also know what time they start for a year plus in advance.
    Or until the timetable changes.
    Which in its self is a draw out process of rejection until its voted for.

    A spare driver (me) gets what ever is left on all routes.

    In fairness. It what nearly all drivers aspire to achieve. Being marked in.
    Just like you know you will be at work from 9-5 Monday Friday.

    If that was taking from you. It would be unfair.

    I am very open to correction from another driver here. I dont pay much attention to it TBH.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I assume you are a DB driver.

    If so can I ask you a question about how the marking in system works. Are drivers who are marked in ever moved from one route to another from time to time? Say a route is discountinued just like many routes were during network direct what would happen drivers who were marked in those routes, would be marked in on a different route or do they revert back to being spare?


    They would go back spare or may change route by applying themselves.

    It happened years ago when the 45 was axed.

    They keep their hours for a few months but then revert back spare unless marking in on another route occurs.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    They would go back spare or may change route by applying themselves.

    It happened years ago when the 45 was axed.

    They keep their hours for a few months but then revert back spare unless marking in on another route occurs.

    Did they get any sort of buy out?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    brokenarms wrote: »
    Did they get any sort of buy out?

    I believe there was a small amount given for the removal or major change.

    I can't comment fully as I wouldn't know exact amount.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Also if this NTA plan goes ahead whats going to happen to current DB staff such as bus inspectors, revenue protection officers and controllers. Are they all going to become NTA employees or is Go Ahead going to provide its own (not exactly intergrated transport if thats the case).

    There will surely have to be some sort of TFL style iBus system but it will be a tall order to get current DB controllers and inspectors to transfer over to the NTA which could lead to industrial unrest. DB revenue protection is currently made up of inspectors and drivers who have been repositioned as ticket inspectors.

    After 2019 when all three CIE companies and Transdev's are contract is up for renewal is the NTA going to set up its own revenue protection unit for all operators.

    This all seems like a whole heap of trouble just to tender out 10% of DB routes. They could have gotten DB to operate the routes and saved both money and trouble as the potential for union trouble is pretty high. Whether you like it or not unions in CIE are powerful and aren't going anywhere anytime soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    i would imagine go-ahead will be expected to employ all the staff it needs to operate the service including revenue protection, inspectors and so on. i can't imagine the NTA will set up their own revenue protection units or other grades.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭markpb


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    It will be a tall order to get current DB controllers and inspectors to transfer over to the NTA which could lead to industrial unrest. [...] This all seems like a whole heap of trouble just to tender out 10% of DB routes. They could have gotten DB to operate the routes and saved both money and trouble as the potential for union trouble is pretty high. Whether you like it or not unions in CIE are powerful and aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

    I can't speak for the NTA but I think you've answered your own question. Why do the NTA want to split up the operation of buses in Dublin across multiple operators? Because the unions are so powerful that change is a pain in the ass for everyone. Network Direct stretched on for years because the unions had to be consulted about everything and vetoed lots of changes. Bus Connects will likely be the same. What you're suggesting is that we should keep giving our lunch money to the school bully because he's powerful and not going anywhere.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    "marking in" is up there with some of the most archaic and illogical work practices out there. Take the more experienced drivers, give them unchanging work; give the complicated stuff needing advanced knowledge to the greenhorns. Needs to end entirely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    markpb wrote: »
    I can't speak for the NTA but I think you've answered your own question. Why do the NTA want to split up the operation of buses in Dublin across multiple operators? Because the unions are so powerful that change is a pain in the ass for everyone. Network Direct stretched on for years because the unions had to be consulted about everything and vetoed lots of changes. Bus Connects will likely be the same. What you're suggesting is that we should keep giving our lunch money to the school bully because he's powerful and not going anywhere.

    But unions are likely going to object and make the tender process a misery for the NTA. Unions will more than likely still be there in Go Ahead so it won't be much different to Dublin Bus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    L1011 wrote: »
    "marking in" is up there with some of the most archaic and illogical work practices out there. Take the more experienced drivers, give them unchanging work; give the complicated stuff needing advanced knowledge to the greenhorns. Needs to end entirely.

    Rubbish....


    Its there for all its actually archaic it now takes so long...


    Drivers were inticed in on the method of marking in would happen at 5 years or before.

    I agree the whole thing needs changing but its ridiculous to think its okay to say at 20, 30 or more years that you don't know what you will be working but wait don't you know your days off so suck it up.


    Its been mentioned already how would you or many like if say you are a 9-5 working day where tomorrow they say we will let you know the day before the time you start and finish.

    You can't plan a thing or say you definitely would be around.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    i would imagine go-ahead will be expected to employ all the staff it needs to operate the service including revenue protection, inspectors and so on. i can't imagine the NTA will set up their own revenue protection units or other grades.

    Not exactly intergrated transport is it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭markpb


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    But unions are likely going to object and make the tender process a misery for the NTA. Unions will more than likely still be there in Go Ahead so it won't be much different to Dublin Bus.

    You're making two assumptions/suggestions that I can't agree with at all:

    1. The unions and work practices in GA will be just as unhelpful as the ones in DB.
    2. The unions and work practices in DB are unhelpful but we should make no effort to fix it because it's hard work.

    You've no proof of the first and the second is laziness of the highest order.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub



    Its been mentioned already how would you or many like if say you are a 9-5 working day where tomorrow they say we will let you know the day before the time you start and finish.
    That's actually pretty **** but what I'm talking about is that like a cleaning company. You work your 9 to 5 but today you could in in company a and tomorrow b. You're paid to clean. The new routes will make this easier.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    That's actually pretty **** but what I'm talking about is that like a cleaning company. You work your 9 to 5 but today you could in in company a and tomorrow b. You're paid to clean. The new routes will make this easier.

    No it won't as each duty is different and each route has many many different styles of duty.

    Some are short and many runs and some are long etc.

    Its actually so out dated its unreal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    No it won't as each duty is different and each route has many many different styles of duty.

    Some are short and many runs and some are long etc.

    Its actually so out dated its unreal.

    My understanding of Bus Connects is all routes are for the chop.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    markpb wrote: »
    You're making two assumptions/suggestions that I can't agree with at all:

    1. The unions and work practices in GA will be just as unhelpful as the ones in DB.
    2. The unions and work practices in DB are unhelpful but we should make no effort to fix it because it's hard work.

    You've no proof of the first and the second is laziness of the highest order.

    I wouldn't call it laziness but rather realism. The NTA say they'll have some of these routes tendered out by the end of next year which I can't see happening for a number of reasons. Getting DB stops and buses rebranded in NTA livery will take more than a year and the fact that GA don't even have a depot yet let alone drivers and staff.

    All this for what having not 50 not 40 not 30 not 20 but 10% of routes out to tender. Its more than it's worth both finacially and opportunity wise. Realistically what can GA do that DB can't if its properly resourced.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Getting DB stops and buses rebranded in NTA livery will take more than a year and the fact that GA don't even have a depot yet let alone drivers and staff.

    GoAhead will most likely get brand new buses that come in from the NTA orders and so will have the new brand from the start and they only need to replace the bus stops on the routes that GoAhead will be operating on. They have already rolled out those new stops in Cork and they look great, won't be difficult to do it on the 10% of GA routes.

    As for the rest of DB buses and stops, that obviously isn't going to happen over night, but then it doesn't need to. It will likely be rolled out on a phased basis, probably along with the usual bus painting schedule.

    It wouldn't be ideal, but as long as they take the same leap cards at the same price, it isn't the end of the world.

    I really don't see either of the above being a major issue, certainly no sort of blocker. Getting a depot set up and drivers hired will be the challenge for GA.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    bk wrote: »
    GoAhead will most likely get brand new buses that come in from the NTA orders and so will have the new brand from the start and they only need to replace the bus stops on the routes that GoAhead will be operating on. They have already rolled out those new stops in Cork and they look great, won't be difficult to do it on the 10% of GA routes.

    As for the rest of DB buses and stops, that obviously isn't going to happen over night, but then it doesn't need to. It will likely be rolled out on a phased basis, probably along with the usual bus painting schedule.

    It wouldn't be ideal, but as long as they take the same leap cards at the same price, it isn't the end of the world.

    I really don't see either of the above being a major issue, certainly no sort of blocker. Getting a depot set up and drivers hired will be the challenge for GA.

    Also what about stops that serve both DB and GA routes stopping at them. The amount of stops that GA operated services will be stopping at is a lot larger than just 10% I'd say the figure would more like 30-40% of stops will have a GA operated service stopping at it.

    I agree with you for GA to get a depot and getting staff hired will be the major issue for them. Given that even DB were having difficulty getting staff GA will have their work cut out.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Also what about stops that serve both DB and GA routes stopping at them. The amount of stops that GA operated services will be stopping at is a lot larger than just 10% I'd say the figure would more like 30-40% of stops will have a GA operated service stopping at it.

    I assume those stops will all get the new NTA poles, just as the BE stops in Cork have already gotten.

    The new stop signs have space for both operators names and multiple route numbers.

    It is just replacing poles, not rocket science!

    Plus it was going to happen anyway, they just started down in Cork.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    bk wrote: »
    I assume those stops will all get the new NTA poles, just as the BE stops in Cork have already gotten.

    The new stop signs have space for both operators names and multiple route numbers.

    It is just replacing poles, not rocket science!

    But it does take time and cost money. There are many better to spend money than on replacing stops.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    I have a question over the type of contract awarded to Go Ahead....

    Here in North Wicklow there is a community campaign underway to link the adjacent towns of Kilcoole and Newtown by a more direct bus route. Currently the only bus option to travel between the two towns is to take a very inconvenient and time wasting endurance of a route 184 (bus to newtown) and 84 (bus to Kilcoole) changeover in Greystones. The community suggestion is that the 84 which currently terminates in Newcastle should continue to Newtown, therefore connecting the two villages by a far more direct and shorter route.

    Does anyone know if the decision to award the 184 to a private operator will now prohibit the possibility of any other bus taking passengers to and from Newtown?

    If I was a private operator awarded a specific route, I would not be happy about another operator then being allowed to operate in my patch, no matter how much the community called for it.

    Am I right to be concerned that the new arrangement might put a stop to any associated route changes that could affect traffic on the newly contracted privately operated service?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Ger Roe wrote: »
    I have a question over the type of contract awarded to Go Ahead....

    Here in North Wicklow there is a community campaign underway to link the adjacent towns of Kilcoole and Newtown by a more direct bus route. Currently the only bus option to travel between the two towns is to take a very inconvenient and time wasting endurance of a route 184 (bus to newtown) and 84 (bus to Kilcoole) changeover in Greystones. The community suggestion is that the 84 which currently terminates in Newcastle should continue to Newtown, therefore connecting the two villages by a far more direct and shorter route.

    Does anyone know if the decision to award the 184 to a private operator will now prohibit the possibility of any other bus taking passengers to and from Newtown?

    If I was a private operator awarded a specific route, I would not be happy about another operator then being allowed to operate in my patch, no matter how much the community called for it.

    Am I right to be concerned that the new arrangement might put a stop to any associated route changes that could affect traffic on the newly contracted privately operated service?

    The PSO routes which the 184 is one, are owned by the NTA and are operated by Dublin Bus under contract from the NTA, the only difference is that a different operator will be now running the bus service, existing fares, routes and timetables will apply unless otherwise decided by the NTA.

    There is no change at all from the situation as it is of now regardless of who are operating the route, it will be like London wherr there are multiple operators all acting under the one brand, for example there are over 10 bus operators in London but most of the passengers would have no idea of this because the system is fully intergrated.

    Operators of PSO services have no say whatsoever about any of what you fear so there is nothing for you to worry about and commercial services cannot compete or set rules either since no commercial services can conflict with PSO routes.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    The NTA has released a list of questions and answers on the process:
    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/BMO.pdf


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    But it does take time and cost money. There are many better to spend money than on replacing stops.

    That is your opinion, I strongly disagree.

    The new bus stop signs are fantastic. Clear, modern and very informative. Much easier for visitors and people new to a route to use.

    They are vastly superior to the old BE and DB stop signs.

    They are one of the small, but important design features that make using public transport easier and more pleasant to use. Along with other features like RTPI, spider maps, Leap cards, next stop signs, etc.

    Either way bus stop signs eventually have to be replaced. The ones in Cork were WAY past they use by date, falling over, rusted and unpainted. They needed to be replaced either way and many DB signs are looking rough too now.

    This isn't really a GoAhead issue, this is something that should be happening either way and is very welcome IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    bk wrote: »
    That is your opinion, I strongly disagree.

    The new bus stop signs are fantastic. Clear, modern and very informative. Much easier for visitors and people new to a route to use.

    They are vastly superior to the old BE and DB stop signs.

    They are one of the small, but important design features that make using public transport easier and more pleasant to use. Along with other features like RTPI, spider maps, Leap cards, next stop signs, etc.

    Either way bus stop signs eventually have to be replaced. The ones in Cork were WAY past they use by date, falling over, rusted and unpainted. They needed to be replaced either way and many DB signs are looking rough too now.

    This isn't really a GoAhead issue, this is something that should be happening either way and is very welcome IMO.

    I'm not giving my opinion I'm stating fact because the fact of the matter is that replacing over 7,000 stops isin't cheap. Maybe in a city with a small network like Cork it is easy to bring these things but not in Dublin where there is a growing network of 110 routes with over 7,000 stops.

    Whenever DB do rebrand they don't pulling up every single pole and replacing it they generally just rebrand in the new colours and new branding rather than pull it up and replace it. I don't know about Cork because I don't live there but I find that DB's stops are generally well kept and up to date. Yes there are some stops which could do with timetables and shelters but stops generally aren't much of issue with regards to DB.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    My understanding of Bus Connects is all routes are for the chop.

    No its not the routes that are indentified to be working fine will be kept the ones that aren't will be changed or scrapped.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Generally the standard of information at stops is far below what is provided in other countries and the NTA proposals for stop information design are far better than what we have at the moment for a number of reasons of which have been covered before.

    The trueform stops in the City Center were initially a great idea especially when they were provided with maps, but now they don't have maps and also the non trueform stops outside the city center are upkept far worse and there are still too many stops over the network with no name on them, no list of what routes stop there and poor or non existant information.

    It will also stop the lunacy that we see in an ever increasing number of stops with several poles right next to each other that looks quite frankly a complete mess as the new system will allow sharing of stops between operators to prevent this madness and will make more space as well.


Advertisement