Call for reintroduction of Saint Patrick's Day alcohol ban

Pat Mustard · 13-04-2017 2:32pm #1

The Intoxicating Liquor Act 1927 banned the sale of alcohol "at any time on Christmas Day, Good Friday, or Saint Patrick's Day."

The Saint Patrick's Day ban was lifted by subsequent legislation but the ban has remained for Christmas Day and Good Friday.

Presently, there moves afoot to repeal the Good Friday ban.

However, I saw this article, in which a Cork City Councillor has called for the reintroduction of the Saint Patrick's Day ban on alcohol sales:

I want to ask that before Fine Gael Justice Minister undoes the fine work of her colleague 90 years ago by declaring Good Friday a wet day that she would consider re-declaring St Patrick's Day a dry day once more.

In calling for the reintroduction of the Saint Patrick's Day alcohol ban, he made veiled references to domestic abuse associated with alcohol abuse:

My concern is with what happens on St Patrick's Day once the parade is over and everybody goes home.

My own opinion is that this legislation was brought in for its religious significance at a time when the vast majority of Irish people strongly identified as Catholic. The alcohol ban served a religious purpose once but that purpose no longer exists for a great number of the population. It seems nonsensical too attempt to justify keeping that legislation on the books on the basis that it is no more than a minor inconvenience.

I presume that the Cork County Councillor is trying to draw attention to himself in some way, by adopting this unusual approach but who knows, perhaps he is serious?

Any other opinions?

Peregrinus · 19-04-2017 10:32am

I'm not sure the ban ever did serve a religious purpose - at least, not predominantly. The Catholic church doesn't forbid the use of alcohol on Good Friday, and neither does any other Christian tradition. And, although the ban was introduced by the Free State in 1927 and not by the previous British administration, it's very much part of a pattern of such bans throughout former British possessions, in many of which the Catholic church was never very influential anyway.

I think it probably has more to do with a puritan-influenced temperance tradition, which didn't like to see public holidays marked by alcohol consumption, and which focussed on the resulting social evils (as indeed does the Cork counsellor today).

Xterminator · 24-04-2017 3:28pm

Heres the thing though.

Deeply religious people can continue to abstain from alcohol on good friday. they just cant force their dogma on everyone else in the country.

Seems like a simple thing really.

Pat Mustard · 24-04-2017 3:41pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think it probably has more to do with a puritan-influenced temperance tradition, which didn't like to see public holidays marked by alcohol consumption, and which focussed on the resulting social evils (as indeed does the Cork counsellor today).

I wasn't aware of that. Interesting to know.

Yourself isit · 24-04-2017 3:44pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not sure the ban ever did serve a religious purpose - at least, not predominantly. The Catholic church doesn't forbid the use of alcohol on Good Friday, and neither does any other Christian tradition. And, although the ban was introduced by the Free State in 1927 and not by the previous British administration, it's very much part of a pattern of such bans throughout former British possessions, in many of which the Catholic church was never very influential anyway.

I think it probably has more to do with a puritan-influenced temperance tradition, which didn't like to see public holidays marked by alcohol consumption, and which focussed on the resulting social evils (as indeed does the Cork counsellor today).

Latter paragraph is very true. While Catholic Ireland was banning alcohol on one or two days, the protestant US was banning it everywhere.

Peregrinus · 25-04-2017 3:10am

Xterminator wrote: »

Heres the thing though.

Deeply religious people can continue to abstain from alcohol on good friday. they just cant force their dogma on everyone else in the country.

Seems like a simple thing really.

No, here's the thing; it's wisest to read through a thread before you contribute to it.

As already pointed out, the "deeply religious" have no objection to consuming alcohol on Good Friday; it's red meat and fowl that they have a problem with. There's no church prohibition on drinking alcohol on Good Friday.

So, presenting the pub closure rule as "forcing dogma on everybody" is basically ignorant. There's no dogma at stake here. I think if you're going to oppose the pub closure rule, it helps to undertstand the reason it was imposed in the first place, and this isn't it.

tedpan · 25-04-2017 3:47am

Yeah, really good idea. Telling all the Brits, Americans and other tourists that they can't drink on Paddy's day..

silverharp · 25-04-2017 8:40am

Yourself isit wrote: »

Latter paragraph is very true. While Catholic Ireland was banning alcohol on one or two days, the protestant US was banning it everywhere.

In the US it was the protestant churches that wanted the bans and the catholics wanted the gov. to stay out of it

were protestants behind it then in Ireland?

The_Valeyard · 25-04-2017 8:46am

silverharp wrote: »

were protestants behind it then in Ireland?

Perfect use of a Father Ted quote for there!

As far as I'm aware the Catholic Church is not really concerned or bothered by the ban.

Im undecided about the ban to Paddy's day. Maybe reduced opening hours or no off Licences. Just to reign in the madness that tends to happen.

Ash.J.Williams · 25-04-2017 8:49am

he lost me here

I want to ask that before Fine Gael Justice Minister undoes the fine work of her colleague 90 years ago by declaring Good Friday a wet day that she would consider re-declaring St Patrick's Day a dry day once more.

G0bsh1te

Clareman · 25-04-2017 8:55am

What amuses me about all the discussions about banning the sale of alcohol that it's all about the person buying it, how about the person selling it? Maybe the bans were put in place to allow bar staff to spend some time with their families, Christmas, Easter and St. Patrick's Day are 3 of the more popular holidays in Ireland, maybe the ban was to allow bar staff have some time off then? Am I the only 1 that remembers the "Holy Hour" on a Sunday? for those that don't remember it was when pubs were shut from 2-4 on a Sunday, it was known as the Holy Hour but really it was nothing to do with anything Holy, it was to allow everyone have some time to have Sunday lunch with their families.

quadrifoglio verde · 25-04-2017 2:27pm

Barbie!sBitch wrote: »

What amuses me about all the discussions about banning the sale of alcohol that it's all about the person buying it, how about the person selling it? Maybe the bans were put in place to allow bar staff to spend some time with their families, Christmas, Easter and St. Patrick's Day are 3 of the more popular holidays in Ireland, maybe the ban was to allow bar staff have some time off then? Am I the only 1 that remembers the "Holy Hour" on a Sunday? for those that don't remember it was when pubs were shut from 2-4 on a Sunday, it was known as the Holy Hour but really it was nothing to do with anything Holy, it was to allow everyone have some time to have Sunday lunch with their families.

I've yet to meet a barman who only has good Friday and Christmas day off.
This argument for keeping it is ludicrous

Clareman · 25-04-2017 2:29pm

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

I've yet to meet a barman who only has good Friday and Christmas day off.
This argument for keeping it is ludicrous

The owner of my local is the only barman for his pub since his father died and his mother got sick.

quadrifoglio verde · 25-04-2017 2:39pm

Barbie!sBitch wrote: »

The owner of my local is the only barman for his pub since his father died and his mother got sick.

And there is nothing to stop him closing on Monday and Tuesday's if he wishes. He is the owner. He can do that if he wants. He can also work every day if he wants.

I'm on about the employed bar man. They don't work 363 days of the year.

Pat Mustard · 25-04-2017 4:41pm

Barbie!sBitch wrote: »

What amuses me about all the discussions about banning the sale of alcohol that it's all about the person buying it, how about the person selling it? Maybe the bans were put in place to allow bar staff to spend some time with their families, Christmas, Easter and St. Patrick's Day are 3 of the more popular holidays in Ireland, maybe the ban was to allow bar staff have some time off then? Am I the only 1 that remembers the "Holy Hour" on a Sunday? for those that don't remember it was when pubs were shut from 2-4 on a Sunday, it was known as the Holy Hour but really it was nothing to do with anything Holy, it was to allow everyone have some time to have Sunday lunch with their families.

I couldn't find this in Dáil debates and it appears to me that the reference to 1925 is not correct but see the quoted text from the linked article:

The regulations had been introduced by Cumann na nGael Minister Kevin O'Higgins in 1925.

In doing so, Mr O'Higgins remarked, "No more will St Patrick's Day be celebrated with drunkenness, nor Good Friday disgraced by tipsy rowdies in the street."

No mention of a holiday for bar and off-licence staff, etc.

Although when the law was introduced, it banned alcohol sales on Saint Patrick's day.

Peregrinus · 26-04-2017 2:54am

silverharp wrote: »

In the US it was the protestant churches that wanted the bans and the catholics wanted the gov. to stay out of it

were protestants behind it then in Ireland?

I think certainly some of them would have been supportive of it, yes. There was a significant Protestant-influenced temperance movement. The Protestant Parliament for a Protestant People in Northern Ireland also enacted Good Friday licensing restrictions; we can hardly blame sinister forces in Rome for this.

But perhaps it's a mistake to analyse this primarily in denominational, or even in religious terms. There was a worldwide temperance movement which was motivated at least as much by social as by religious considerations. A contemporary analogy might be the movement to abolish the death penalty; there are religious voices prominent in that movement, and many people's involvement is inspired by their religious conviction. But many others are not religious at all, and I don't think you would characterise the movement as a whole, or the objectives which it seeks, as "religious".

I think in Ireland the temperance movement did have a large religious element, because Ireland was a society strongly marked by religious identity. But most likely Ireland would have been affected by the temperance movement whether or not it was a particularly religious nation. And it's noteworthy, as already pointed out, that the Catholic church doesn't generally oppose alcohol consumption, either in general or on Good Friday (or St. Patrick's Day or Christmas Day). So, if anything, what you see here is Catholicism being pressed into service by the temperance movement, rather than the other way around.

Victor · 26-04-2017 6:01am

Peregrinus · 26-04-2017 6:24am

Fascinating!

I see two possible (not very serious) explanations:

1. We have more sex when on holidays. This is pretty plausible, actually. We're less stressed, we have free time, we have a sense that a degree of recreation (there's a clue in the 'create' part of that word!) and indulgence is just what the doctor ordered.

2. This is a deeply-rooted evolutionary trait. For survival in a hunter-gatherer society, the best times to pop a sprog are Sep/Oct (when the harvest is in - there's little work to be done, and food supplies are plentiful) and spring (when the sowing has been done, the hunting is good and there's plently of growing food to be gathered. Bad times are late winter (when the larder is running down) and high summer (when dry weather means limited harvesting of plant food sources). So, evolution has favoured those who get to feeling a bit frisky in midwinter (for those Sep/Oct babies) and the summer (for those mid-March to mid-May babies).

I note, from the dearth of babies from late October through to mid-December, that we're obviously having very little sex in January and February.

It would be interesting to compare this with similar charts for other countries, both similar to ours, geographically and culturally, and different.

Pat Mustard · 26-04-2017 10:18am

Interesting chart to plan baby's arrival at a time of low maternity ward usage, in the (possibly unsafe) hope that staff don't go on holiday at those times.

silverharp · 26-04-2017 10:19am

I don't know if I'd use the term evolutionary as such but more naturally aligned with the local conditions. Its clear humans in the past would be in worst shape/spirits around Feb/March in a cold northern climate, food low, Vit D and UV deprived etc.

Pat Mustard · 26-04-2017 10:22am

Also interesting that there are 14 reds for summer conceptions but 21 reds for Christmas and New Year conceptions, combined.

That seems to point more towards alcohol and close quarters rather than rest and relaxation!

Ash.J.Williams · 26-04-2017 12:08pm

Barbie!sBitch wrote: »

What amuses me about all the discussions about banning the sale of alcohol that it's all about the person buying it, how about the person selling it? Maybe the bans were put in place to allow bar staff to spend some time with their families, Christmas, Easter and St. Patrick's Day are 3 of the more popular holidays in Ireland, maybe the ban was to allow bar staff have some time off then? Am I the only 1 that remembers the "Holy Hour" on a Sunday? for those that don't remember it was when pubs were shut from 2-4 on a Sunday, it was known as the Holy Hour but really it was nothing to do with anything Holy, it was to allow everyone have some time to have Sunday lunch with their families.

they have a lie on most mornings

L1011 · 23-07-2017 3:34am

Clareman wrote: »

it was to allow everyone have some time to have Sunday lunch with their families.

Like that ever happened.

Also the Holy Hour was daily - daily nonsense.

NONE of the restrictions were put in place with bar staff in mind - how on earth did you get that idea?

I'm entirely in favour of all restrictions on alcohol sale being removed in the vague hope we become more like our southern european brethren. The norhern european countries seem to specialise in both alcoholism and restrictions on sale of alcohol; yet nobody ever sees a link.

Treat adults like children about something and you have no right to be surprised when they act like children

Locking alcohol away behind time restrictions, or even better, the insane display restrictions proposed under current legislation*, and people will feel "entitled" to it during the allowed time. Ensure that drinking is not special and not restricted and peoples insanity about it being special will dissapate

There'll be a while where its worse, but it'll pass. The Iberians have similar genetics/history/etc to us and can buy beer in any corner shop and drink it on the street; or get beer at 4am; and they aren't alcos. Next years Good Friday is likely to be a mess due to people deliberately rebelling - but in 2019 it'll be the Friday of a bank holiday and hence dead everywhere in Dublin.

*the documents relating to the proposed rules on hiding alcohol in shops had a drawing of a supermarket with a "beer cave". How can you possibly tell kids that drinking isn't alluring when there's closed-off boxes for drinkers in shops called "beer cave"s. Idiots.

Peregrinus · 24-07-2017 8:32am

I'm a bit suspicious of the suggestion that a society's drinking culture is formed in reaction to its licensing laws. It seems to be more plausible to suggest that the licensing laws are a response to the drinking culture, and more plausible again to suggest that both the licensing laws and the drinking culture are a product of wider culture and history.

And possibly geography. It's not a coincidence that your "northern European" group in includes Catholic and post-Catholic Ireland, Anglican and post-Anglican England, Presybterian and post-Presbyterian Scotland, Lutheran and post-Lutheran Scandinavia/Baltic states and Orthodox and post-Orthodox Russia. And the southern European group, if not quite as diverse, is nevertheless diverse.

So what unites the two groups? Alcohol tradition in the nothern group are based on grain - beer, whiskey, schnapps, vodka. Grape-based drinks are mostly imported and have traditionally been seen as more of a luxury item. Whereas the reverse is true in southern Europe. My wild guess is that this may be at the root of different drinking cultures, and the licensing laws are more of a response to that than an expression of of it.

All of which would suggest that simply changing the licensing laws isn't going to to change a great deal about the way we drink, or the problems and benefits that we derive from it.

Pat Mustard · 27-07-2017 11:02am

Mod:

Troll deleted and replies to troll removed.

Adamocovic · 27-07-2017 12:30pm

Ban will never be reintroduced. Just someone saying stirring something with the sole intention of getting their name out their, in my opinion.

Outlaw Pete · 17-03-2019 2:58pm

Can't buy alcohol until 4pm in my local Lidl today.

Laughable.

votecounts · 17-03-2019 3:04pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Can't buy alcohol until 4pm in my local Lidl today.

Laughable.

Why?
1230 surely

Outlaw Pete · 17-03-2019 3:17pm

They said the Gardai had imposed an order to all supermarkets across the city.

Dial Hard · 17-03-2019 3:20pm

Outlaw Pete wrote:

They said the Gardai had imposed an order to all supermarkets across the city.

That is utter, utter nonsense. Gardai can't make unilateral licensing calls like that. Either you're having us on or someone in your local Lidl needs a serious talking-to.

17-03-2019 4:16pm

Dial Hard wrote: »

That is utter, utter nonsense. Gardai can't make unilateral licensing calls like that. Either you're having us on or someone in your local Lidl needs a serious talking-to.

https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-off-licences-patricks-day-1363370-Mar2014/
Just back from a local off-licence that said they wouldn't sell until after 4

Call for reintroduction of Saint Patrick's Day alcohol ban

Comments