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Irish Rail Issue Tender for 600 Electric / Battery Carriages

245

Comments

  • #32
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    GM228 wrote: »
    50%, not sure where you got that from?

    12% of the ICR fleet is assigned to Commuter work (which includes the GCD services ).

    Only 1 x 29000 set is assigned 1 x return to Rosslare daily and 2x29000 sets to the Sligo on a Friday only, they work Commuter services in between.

    You said 30 22s are in service on commuter routes on a daily basis. Im told there is typically 54-56 sets in some form of service per day (depending on the day) so that would make over 50% of ICRs on commuter services.

    12% sounds more like it but could you clarify the 30 from previous post.

    Edit assume 30 is coaches not trains?


  • #33
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    You said 30 22s are in service on commuter routes on a daily basis. Im told there is typically 54-56 sets in some form of service per day (depending on the day) so that would make over 50% of ICRs on commuter services.

    12% sounds more like it but could you clarify the 30 from previous post.

    Edit assume 30 is coaches not trains?

    The list is number of vehicles, not sets, there are 234 22000s.


  • #34
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    L1011 wrote: »
    Electric trains will be faster than diesel on frequently stopping services or lines with frequent speed limit changes; due to better acceleration and later braking

    Which describes all the lines in scope; especially Maynooth.

    Faster of the mark but more unreliable. There is an issue with new units in Scotland. The traction motors are cooked. Stop-start diagrams. AC motors and equipment.


  • #35
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Faster of the mark but more unreliable. There is an issue with new units in Scotland. The traction motors are cooked. Stop-start diagrams. AC motors and equipment.

    Experience over decades shows electric units to be vastly more reliable than diesel. Teething problems on one class mean nothing


  • #36
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Faster of the mark but more unreliable. There is an issue with new units in Scotland. The traction motors are cooked. Stop-start diagrams. AC motors and equipment.

    Electric units are vastly more reliable, those trains you are talking about are the first time that the design (AT-200) has been used in the UK so of course there is going to be more problems than most, especially when the product is new. See also, Bombardier and their Aventra product.

    For an example the Golden Spanner results for modern trains in the UK based on Miles per Technical Incident (MTIN)

    First generation new EMU
    Class 350/2 – London Midland/King’s Heath depot/Porterbrook (164,481 MTIN)
    (followed by different variants of the same train)

    Second generation new EMU
    Class 379 – Greater Anglia/Ilford depot/Macquarie European Rail (93,329 MTIN)

    First generation new DMU
    Class 185 – TransPennine Express/Ardwick depot/Eversholt (26,684 MTIN)


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  • #37
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That the 350 and 185 are the EMU and DMU of the *same design* should be pointed out here to compare the figures.


  • #38
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    devnull wrote: »
    Electric units are vastly more reliable, those trains you are talking about are the first time that the design (AT-200) has been used in the UK so of course there is going to be more problems than most, especially when the product is new. See also, Bombardier and their Aventra product.

    For an example the Golden Spanner results for modern trains in the UK based on Miles per Technical Incident (MTIN)

    First generation new EMU
    Class 350/2 – London Midland/King’s Heath depot/Porterbrook (164,481 MTIN)
    (followed by different variants of the same train)

    Second generation new EMU
    Class 379 – Greater Anglia/Ilford depot/Macquarie European Rail (93,329 MTIN)

    First generation new DMU
    Class 185 – TransPennine Express/Ardwick depot/Eversholt (26,684 MTIN)

    I am not saying electric units are unreliable (BR 3rd rail Mk1 units did 400,000 miles+ between faults btw), but there are issues with units that use AC motors rather that DC.

    The 350 & 379 units run long distances between stops at speed. The issue in Scotland is that on some routes around Glasgow, the units are constantly either underpower or using the re-gen braking at low speeds. The motors are self ventilated (like your bog standard electric tool) and there is insufficient airflow to cool the motors.


  • #39
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    The increase in carriage stock is great and all but with the volume of increase that this order is suggested would all of it be used Daily? Am I right in thinking only the ppt line can really handle any major degree of frequency increase and at at that only if they can be terminated at docklands?


  • #40
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Going to be some monster batteries for anything other than really short runs.. Will these be self charging hybrids?

    Is there a plan to electrify any of the IC lines?


  • #41
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    We're not going to be using AC so I'm not sure why it was ever thought to be relevant for this thread. The claim that the units would be less reliable was outright incorrect.


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  • #42
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    I am not saying electric units are unreliable (BR 3rd rail Mk1 units did 400,000 miles+ between faults btw), but there are issues with units that use AC motors rather that DC.

    The Desiro 350 is running on AC.
    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The 350 & 379 units run long distances between stops at speed. The issue in Scotland is that on some routes around Glasgow, the units are constantly either underpower or using the re-gen braking at low speeds. The motors are self ventilated (like your bog standard electric tool) and there is insufficient airflow to cool the motors.

    The Desiro 3xx EMU range is generally aimed at the commuter market with many stops on-route due to their strong acceleration when built. They do not run limited stop express services very often at all.

    A typical 379 calling pattern from London Liverpool Street
    Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Roydon, Harlow Town, Harlow Mill, Sawbridgeworth, Bishop's Stortford, Stansted Mountfitchet, Elsenham, Newport, Audley End, Great Chesterford, Whittlesford Parkway, Shelford, Cambridge

    A typical 350 calling pattern from London Euston
    Watford Junction, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Canley, Tile Hill, Berkswell, Hampton-in-Arden, Birmingham International, Marston Green, Birmingham New Street.

    A typical 360 calling pattern from London Liverpool Street
    Stratford, Shenfield, Chelmsford, Hatfield Peverel, Witham, Kelvedon, Marks Tey, Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich.


  • #43
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    The increase in carriage stock is great and all but with the volume of increase that this order is suggested would all of it be used Daily? Am I right in thinking only the ppt line can really handle any major degree of frequency increase and at at that only if they can be terminated at docklands?

    This fleet order is just one part of the Dart Expansion, which will effectively double the passenger capacity in the Greater Dublin Area. There was a meeting on it recently, with some very interesting slides. In the short to medium term, they're planning on going from 26000 passengers during peak hour to 52000.

    The planned reconfiguration of Glasnevin Junction would allow PPT to switch tracks easily.

    https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1131258079897694208


  • #44
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Will these be self charging hybrids?

    Oh please don't fall for Toyotas bull**** marketing!

    A hybrid is a vehicle with a petrol or diesel engine and a very small battery that charges when you brake (regenerative breaking). They are still very much ICE vehicles.

    These will seemingly have no diesel engine of any kind. Only electric motors powered either by battery or overhead wires.

    And yes, they probably will have regenerative breaking, but the amount of power they would receive by that is tiny, they will get most of their power by charging from overhead cables or plugging them in at the station.


  • #45
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    bk wrote: »
    Oh please don't fall for Toyotas bull**** marketing!

    A hybrid is a vehicle with a petrol or diesel engine and a very small battery that charges when you brake (regenerative breaking). They are still very much ICE vehicles.

    These will seemingly have no diesel engine of any kind. Only electric motors powered either by battery or overhead wires.

    And yes, they probably will have regenerative breaking, but the amount of power they would receive by that is tiny, they will get most of their power by charging from overhead cables or plugging them in at the station.

    would that mean that lines could be part electrified for charging?


  • #46
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lawred2 wrote: »
    would that mean that lines could be part electrified for charging?

    Yes, that sounds like it is part of the plan. You could electrify just in and near stations so that they can get a top-up charge while stopped.


  • #47
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    I like the sound of that


  • #48
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    bk wrote: »
    Oh please don't fall for Toyotas bull**** marketing!

    A hybrid is a vehicle with a petrol or diesel engine and a very small battery that charges when you brake (regenerative breaking). They are still very much ICE vehicles.

    These will seemingly have no diesel engine of any kind. Only electric motors powered either by battery or overhead wires.

    And yes, they probably will have regenerative breaking, but the amount of power they would receive by that is tiny, they will get most of their power by charging from overhead cables or plugging them in at the station.


    I saw somewhere recently that regenerative breaking can actually save/regenerate 10% of charge over a journey. Would welcome more info or correction


  • #49
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    They should have re-generative breaking no problem, many of the fleets in the UK have as standard in the last decade with others having the ability retrofitted.


  • #50
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Dats me wrote: »
    I saw somewhere recently that regenerative breaking can actually save/regenerate 10% of charge over a journey. Would welcome more info or correction

    With frequent stopping, at least that.


  • #51
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,131 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The entire DART fleet has had regenerative braking since day 1


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  • #52
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    The entire DART fleet has had regenerative braking since day 1

    They didn't from day 1.

    The 8100s got retrofitted during refurbishment from 2005 onwards, the 8200s don't have it and the 85XXs got retrofitted between 2008 and 2013 I believe.


  • #53
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    This is one of these things where I'm fairly certain I saw claims in school books in the 90s of them having it; but that could be a false memory or an inaccurate book!


  • #54
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,439 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    L1011 wrote: »
    This is one of these things where I'm fairly certain I saw claims in school books in the 90s of them having it; but that could be a false memory or an inaccurate book!

    We had this in the 1930's! :D

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumm_Battery_Train

    https://www.independent.ie/life/flashback-1931-first-journey-of-batterypowered-train-34252634.html


  • #55
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    bk wrote: »
    Yes, that sounds like it is part of the plan. You could electrify just in and near stations so that they can get a top-up charge while stopped.

    Sounds like a typical Irish approach to transport projects....battery power for what IE want isn't workable.


  • #56
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    loyatemu wrote: »
    the LHB Darts will be retired

    Noooooooooooooooooo


  • #57
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    L1011 wrote: »
    We're not going to be using AC so I'm not sure why it was ever thought to be relevant for this thread. The claim that the units would be less reliable was outright incorrect.

    All units use AC motors now regardless of the supply. For example, all the electric units built in the UK since the early 90s use AC motors even although they run off a 750-800v DC third rail supply or 25kv. They could run from 1500v Dc if required.

    Any future Irish units will have AC traction motors. Its industry standard now unless specified.


  • #58
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Given that the future DART services will be covering longer distances (i.e. Drogheda and Maynooth), it might be an idea to have future fleets fitted with on-board toilet facilities. What do y'all reckon?

    Some of these journeys could be up to 2 hours!


  • #59
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭Qrt


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    Given that the future DART services will be covering longer distances (i.e. Drogheda and Maynooth), it might be an idea to have future fleets fitted with on-board toilet facilities. What do y'all reckon?

    Some of these journeys could be up to 2 hours!

    This was mentioned before, and pretty sure it was shut down. Pearse has ticketside toilets so you could get off the DART there, have a wizz, then get back on the next one. I think they’re eventually meant to be every five minutes, very wishful thinking mind.


  • #60
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Agree that AC traction motors (as opposed to input from the overhead) is the way things are going. Wouldn't surprise me if the 201 repowering happens that AC traction will be part of the package. Look at constructors like MotivePower who have switched to AC in their Tier 4 MP40 commuter engines vs DC in their prior offerings in the same family.

    http://www.republiclocomotive.com/ac-traction-vs-dc-traction.html

    I see there is a proposal to have a depot on the Maynooth line - I would argue that the sooner the better to build that, and ideally to be able to constructed with some capacity to store/daily service DMUs while waiting for the new units. However, is upgrading Maynooth now enough or should the expectation be to have improved/electric service at least as far as Enfield?

    As for Talgo, we may very well see them push hard for involvement in this order, since the NTSB just put a big dent in their brand and likely market prospects in North America with the report into Amtrak 501 and the crashworthiness of the Series VI stock.


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  • #61
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Qrt wrote: »
    This was mentioned before, and pretty sure it was shut down. Pearse has ticketside toilets so you could get off the DART there, have a wizz, then get back on the next one. I think they’re eventually meant to be every five minutes, very wishful thinking mind.
    Given the coming demographic bulge, I feel transit operators are really missing the need for more bathrooms both on and off trains...


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