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Why so few historic buildings in Ireland?

  • 01-09-2020 9:42am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭


    Just curious as to why there are so few historic buildings in Irish towns (when compared to Britain)? No timber framed Tudor frontages from 500 years ago, few Cromwellian houses in the middle of towns. Not saying that they don't exist in Ireland it's just that there are so many of them across the water, which begs the question why so few here?

    So many ancient pubs in England & Wales too, hundreds of years old, not so many here. Why?

    Curious.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,630 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Suspect originally built with poorer, substandard materials to start with. Lack of maintenance too.
    The mania for "new" things has put paid to many a traditional bar esp from 60s and 70s onwards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,335 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    We where an impoverished colony ruled by landlords from London. No need for nice houses or pubs


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Man with broke phone


    British probably burned them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    We where an impoverished colony ruled by landlords from London. No need for nice houses or pubs

    So either they never existed in the 1st place because we were so poor and impoverished or the British burned them, really? Surely there must have been some Tudor timber framed buildings in Ireland, or did London forbid it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    A few cathedrals aside, there are only a handful of urban buildings surviving in Ireland that predate 1700. This is the result partly of the relative poverty of the country (buildings were not built to last or, if built to last, were replace with newer, larger buildings when times became more prosperous) and partly of the relatively warlike condition of the country (towns were sacked, and buildings trashed or destroyed).

    There's any number of older buildings in rural areas - tower houses are common and, of course, a lot of monastic ruins survive. But they were stone-built, whereas urban buildings tended to be timber-framed, with rubble infill and plaster render; only the chimneystacks would be made of brick. We don't get many all-brick houses in Ireland before the 18th century.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭antimatterx


    I think Irish architecture is poor, especially compared to the British. Irish buildings are very plain and lack any sort of imagination.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,088 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Ormond Castle in Carrick on Suir would be mostly Tudor, I think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,793 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    A few cathedrals aside, there are only a handful of urban buildings surviving in Ireland that predate 1700. This is the result partly of the relative poverty of the country (buildings were not built to last or, if built to last, were replace with newer, larger buildings when times became more prosperous) and partly of the relatively warlike condition of the country (towns were sacked, and buildings trashed or destroyed).

    There's any number of older buildings in rural areas - tower houses are common and, of course, a lot of monastic ruins survive. But they were stone-built, whereas urban buildings tended to be timber-framed.

    That's my take on it too. Just thinking about the towns I frequent and aside from medieval ruins, the next oldest buildings are from the 18th and 19th centuries. The Tudor or "Cromwellian" (I've never heard that phrase used to describe architecture) buildings the OP mentions don't seem to have lasted 200 years, never mind 500.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    That's my take on it too. Just thinking about the towns I frequent and aside from medieval ruins, the next oldest buildings are from the 18th and 19th centuries. The Tudor or "Cromwellian" (I've never heard that phrase used to describe architecture) buildings the OP mentions don't seem to have lasted 200 years, never mind 500.

    Cromwellian, as in from that period of history.

    Yes, apart from the odd castle and stately home there are very few towns where you can walk through the doors and be transported back three, four, five or six hundred years as you sit beside a giant fireplace and sip on a pint.
    That's what I'm talking about.


  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat




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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I think Irish architecture is poor, especially compared to the British. Irish buildings are very plain and lack any sort of imagination.
    For much of the time, Irish architecture is basically the same as British architecture, but with less money spent on it.

    There are a couple of exceptions - Irish plasterwork of the 18th century, at its best, is superior to anything you will find in Britain, for example. But in general Irish architecture was the poor provincial relation of British architecture.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    So where have so many of our ancient buildings gone, and why are there so many if them still standing across the water?

    Not talking quality of plasterwork, or ornate frontages, just common historic buildings from town centres.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Many of the old country houses were burned down during and after the War of Independence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    ...I know that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,335 ✭✭✭SouthWesterly


    ...I know that.

    So why are you asking? :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Why am I asking?

    But my question was about historic structures in town centres. Not stately homes burnt out during the 1920s. Sounds like they just didn't last for whatever reason, shame :(

    Bray Town centre is a good example, the old Town hall (now McDonald's), certainly looks the part (beautiful structure) but was only built in 1883, and not 1653 (for example), as many town centre historic buildings would be in Britain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Why am I asking?

    But my question was about historic structures in town centres. Not stately homes burnt out during the 1920s. Sounds like they just didn't last for whatever reason, shame :(

    Bray Town centre is a good example, the old Town hall (now McDonald's), certainly looks the part (beautiful structure) but was only built in 1883, and not 1653 (for example), as many town centre historic buildings would be in Britain.
    There would be few municipal buildings dating from before the 17th century in England. In an ancient city like York, for example, the site of the municipal buildings has been in use for civic buildings since the fifteenth century, but the oldest part of the buildings now standing there dates only from 1811, earlier structures having all been replaced over the years.

    Still, there would be more urban buildings from the 17th century and before in England than in Ireland, and this is for three reasons. First, England was a much more urbanised society than Ireland, and therefore there were more urban buildings to begin with, both private and civic. Secondly, England was much richer, and could build to a higher standard, and spend more on maintenance and repair. Thirdly, England was peaceful.

    Stone-built buildings will stand for a long time, but otherwise, until people started building in brick, very few buildings lasted more than 100 years, and the great majority lasted less than 50 years. Brick didn't become an affordable building material in England until the seventeenth century, and in Ireland until the eighteenth. Much before that, you had to be fabulously wealthy to build in brick. And nobody in Ireland was fabulously wealthy.

    There are a few brick houses surviving in Irish towns from the seventeenth century, mostly incororporated into later structures and remodelled so that they no longer look like seventeenth century houses. I'm not aware of any that are open to the public. Castles, churches, cathedrals and Newgrange aside, the oldest building in Ireland that you can visit would, I think, be the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham - construction started in 1680. It's brick-built.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Why am I asking?

    But my question was about historic structures in town centres. Not stately homes burnt out during the 1920s. Sounds like they just didn't last for whatever reason, shame :(

    Bray Town centre is a good example, the old Town hall (now McDonald's), certainly looks the part (beautiful structure) but was only built in 1883, and not 1653 (for example), as many town centre historic buildings would be in Britain.


    Bray was a collection of mud huts before the coming of the railway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭F5500


    Leamaneh is over the road from me and it's in pretty good nick.

    Always thought it would be lovely if it was restored as the likes of Bunratty, but I'm sure it'd cost many millions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    The minute the Viking settlement at Wood Quay was built on I kind of gave up.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    Kilkenny has retained some of its medieval architecture.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 7,941 Mod ✭✭✭✭Yakult



    So many ancient pubs in England & Wales too, hundreds of years old, not so many here. Why?

    "Seans Bar" in Athlone

    "Sean's Bar is a pub in Athlone, Ireland, notable for its claim of being established around AD 900, which would make it the oldest bar in Ireland and possibly all of Europe."


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Addle wrote: »
    Kilkenny has retained some of its medieval architecture.

    It has indeed, lovely spot altogether.

    There are a lot of castles around the place, mostly either in ruins or restored and are now high end hotels.

    OP, it is a question that kind of answers itself, but is very sad just the same.

    When you look at village greens in England and how much has been preserved it is unreal. Some really fabulous spots in England. Have relatives who live in Thame in Oxfordshire. It pains me every time we visit, because so much of the ancient High Street is still there, and it is really picturesque. But it is a working town, and I doubt the natives even see it anymore now. But we did!.

    Same goes for a lot of English heritage, their National Trust works hard to keep it going.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Waterford has some fine Georgian buildings esp on the Mall, Parnell Street, down the Quays, Georges Street and city end of O'Connell Street.

    Waterford City can boast the finest collection of eighteenth-century architecture in any city in Ireland outside Dublin. This period of Georgian elegance began with the construction in 1741 of the Church of Ireland Bishop’s Palace to a design by the celebrated Richard Castle (d. 1751); the palace was completed by the Waterford-born John Roberts (1712-96).

    https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/places-to-visit/waterford/waterford-waterford-bishops-palace/


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Waterford has some fine Georgian buildings esp on the Mall, down the Quays, Georges Street and city end of O'Connell Street.


    https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/places-to-visit/waterford/waterford-waterford-bishops-palace/

    So has Limerick and Dublin.

    I think what OP was referring to was the ANCIENT stuff, like the Norman churches, the timber framed housing, the pubs extant since the 16th c or before with uneven floors, the thatched cottages in a cluster, the village green, and so on.

    Stratford on Avon is one example.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,705 ✭✭✭✭Hello 2D Person Below


    Ancient buildings were destroyed by the Brits and various other conquests over the centuries.

    Ireland wasn't as backward or destitute as people make out. If not for Irish monks a lot of European history would have been lost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭selectamatic


    Many town structures and buildings were burned down/destroyed during times of violence too so it's definitely not something confined to stately homes.

    Widespread destruction in Dublin during the 1916 rising

    The burning of cork
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Cork

    In Ballaghaderreen Numerous premises burned down in retaliation for the ratra ambush including the 2 of the largest buildings in the town.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/ira-headquarters-refused-request-to-defend-ballaghaderreen-1.4037571

    Many other examples of conflict resulting in widespread damage to buildings in towns all over Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    So has Limerick and Dublin.

    I think what OP was referring to was the ANCIENT stuff, like the Norman churches, the timber framed housing, the pubs extant since the 16th c or before with uneven floors, the thatched cottages in a cluster, the village green, and so on.

    Stratford on Avon is one example.

    Well Tudor styles in Ireland were basically mud huts! Just like in England for the agrarian populace.

    Some "baronial halls" do exist like Carrick as mentioned but considering the centuries of conflict and retribution it's probably not a shock that few "domestic" structures of that era exist. It should be said some exist but as sections of a more modern structure so can be hard to spot.

    One of that type in Waterford that is very central in T&H Doolans which was build in 1710 but has features from the 11th century.

    th-doolan-s-pub.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Well Tudor styles in Ireland were basically mud huts! Just like in England for the agrarian populace.

    Some "baronial halls" do exist like Carrick as mentioned but considering the centuries of conflict and retribution it's probably not a shock that few "domestic" structures of that era exist. It should be said some exist but as sections of a more modern structure so can be hard to spot.

    One of that type in Waterford that is very central in T&H Doolans which was build in 1710 but has features from the 11th century.

    th-doolan-s-pub.jpg

    How did that survive? Is it the original or a pastiche do you know..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    This was a place our relatives took us for lunch. On the banks of the Thames not far from London in Wolvercote. Absolutely gorgeous spot.

    Be rather difficult to find similar here.

    The Trout Inn. Sitting outside on the banks of the river was magical, and the place is ancient also. Just saying, and that was just ONE place we visited in the area, all delightful. But sure when you're on holliers everything looks great I know that, but still.

    https://www.thetroutoxford.co.uk/


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