Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Irish Naturalisation : processing time and final stage

135

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,611 ✭✭✭maninasia


    That's a pity, 3 years is just WAY too long. I know they process them at different speeds according to if you are married to an Irish spouse, non-EU and EU citizen. It states this on the CitizensInformation website. Beyond that it's like a black hole as to what process the Ministry follows. BTW, why does the Ministry of Justice still decide immigration policy, I though that an Immigration Dept. was going to be set-up?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,611 ✭✭✭maninasia


    double post


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 507 ✭✭✭portomar


    Three years i way too long...what's the law regarding migrant workers (non-eu) sponsored in ireland, being allowed to remain in a ''resident'' sort of way? sorry, im living in australia at the moment and am using their terminology i know! I knew two people i worked in a pub with in dublin, one from ukraine one from South Africa, who had to apply for their visa every year even though they had been there, law abiding, tax paying for about 8 years. it just seems disgraceful to me that these people should be treated like this after acting as responsible society members for so long. my opinion, residency after two years law abiding and in employment. that really wouldn't be a whole heap of people given most of our immigrants are EU and not subject to same laws anyway. met so many bangladeshis in dublin just hanging on for their irish passport, felt bad for them that our f**k wit political establishment doesn't appreciate how much they love ireland and want to contibute. the system seems needlessly arbitrary and confrontational to me

    /topic a bit i know


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Abed


    maninasia wrote: »
    That's a pity, 3 years is just WAY too long. I know they process them at different speeds according to if you are married to an Irish spouse, non-EU and EU citizen. It states this on the CitizensInformation website. Beyond that it's like a black hole as to what process the Ministry follows. BTW, why does the Ministry of Justice still decide immigration policy, I though that an Immigration Dept. was going to be set-up?

    I really don't think it makes any difference if you are married to an Irish citizen regarding speeding up your application. (I'm married to an Irish citizen myself and have been waiting long enough). the only category with quicker procedures is refugees of which I know two people who had their applications processed in 8 months only. both of them were granted citizenship, non of them has ever worked!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    maninasia wrote: »
    That's a pity, 3 years is just WAY too long. I know they process them at different speeds according to if you are married to an Irish spouse, non-EU and EU citizen. It states this on the CitizensInformation website. Beyond that it's like a black hole as to what process the Ministry follows. BTW, why does the Ministry of Justice still decide immigration policy, I though that an Immigration Dept. was going to be set-up?

    that was lip service talk. cant see it happening to be honest. sure it will probably take another year, considering lisbon and the economy is to be dealt with, before the immigration bill of 2008 comes into power. (of course there is now a section in the department inis)


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    that was lip service talk. cant see it happening to be honest. sure it will probably take another year, considering lisbon and the economy is to be dealt with, before the immigration bill of 2008 comes into power. (of course there is now a section in the department inis)

    they are one of the few departments in government to turn a profit due to all the processing fees, i cant find the figures now but its a significant amount and can probably cover paying extra part time clerical staff (god forbid they hire more full time public sector workers with a job for life! pensions and all that)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭walrusgumble


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    they are one of the few departments in government to turn a profit due to all the processing fees, i cant find the figures now but its a significant amount and can probably cover paying extra part time clerical staff (god forbid they hire more full time public sector workers with a job for life! pensions and all that)

    shhhooooo you will begin to start talking sense

    sure once the application comes through, i think the applicant then has to pay circa €700 + before being sworn in, for the priviledge of citizenship.

    but ye, its a bit of a money racket alright, ya would not want to be losing your green card whilst on the lash etc €100 a pop


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    Abed wrote: »
    I know two people who had their applications processed in 8 months only. both of them were granted citizenship, non of them has ever worked!


    Great just what the Country needs in exchange for Citizenship more waster on the take, more reason why stringent tests/interviews should be carried out before the value of an Irish Passport is granted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭Mort5000


    SWL wrote: »
    Great just what the Country needs in exchange for Citizenship more waster on the take, more reason why stringent tests/interviews should be carried out before the value of an Irish Passport is granted.

    I'd have to say, being a person that has successfully naturalised, I think that the state should put some tests in place.

    At the final stage of my naturalisation (preparing to appear in court), I was in a room surrounded by 20 or 30 other applicants.
    The representative from the justice department stood at the front of the room giving instructions.
    It was alarming how few people could even follow such a basic set of instructions...

    The UK version is probably appropriate:
    - knowing some history
    - life in UK test
    etc..


  • Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    My situation could only be given the nightmare status after giving Ireland 12 years of my life (1995-2008)

    I studied in Dublin (Masters in IT, Bachelor in IT and MBA in business management) and worked full time in IT for 4 years (under college intership with the full knowledge of the immigration office)

    I applied using Form5, collected it in October 2002 from the DOJ after meeting one of their officials. There were no notifications, no information either on their website nor on any documentation they provided of the impending changes of the naturalization law. (this information is confirmed by the DOJ by a request made under the Freedom of information act)

    At that time (October 2002) I had 7 years residency and paid tax for 4 years, which was more than they required. By the time my application was received by their offices which was AFTER Novermber 2002 (11 days late) I was told in 2005 that I am not eligible since the law had changed, applicants who had years under student visas will not be counted, I had 7 years.

    I fought them from 2005 until 2007, after having a high court case in may 2007, the Judge stated that the Minister would not have to notify the changes to the public!!! I lost. I am stuck in a gray area as I was told by the judge.

    I tried contacting the Minister directly to look into my cas, but since they had been changing all the time (McDowell,Lenihan to Ahern). none seemed to care.

    I was forced to leave everything in Dublin in jan 2008 (my life, all my belongings and even my Dog!) as my permit had expired and I did not wish to stay illegally.

    Now I am trying to find employment in Ireland online, to return and build up my life form the start. I am divestated, upset and angry but this won't help me.

    Is this fair? NO but what can I do!!!!


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    Suff wrote: »
    My situation could only be given the nightmare status after giving Ireland 12 years of my life (1995-2008)

    I studied in Dublin (Masters in IT, Bachelor in IT and MBA in business management) and worked full time in IT for 4 years (under college intership with the full knowledge of the immigration office)

    I applied using Form5, collected it in October 2002 from the DOJ after meeting one of their officials. There were no notifications, no information either on their website nor on any documentation they provided of the impending changes of the naturalization law. (this information is confirmed by the DOJ by a request made under the Freedom of information act)

    At that time (October 2002) I had 7 years residency and paid tax for 4 years, which was more than they required. By the time my application was received by their offices which was AFTER Novermber 2002 (11 days late) I was told in 2005 that I am not eligible since the law had changed, applicants who had years under student visas will not be counted, I had 7 years.

    I fought them from 2005 until 2007, after having a high court case in may 2007, the Judge stated that the Minister would not have to notify the changes to the public!!! I lost. I am stuck in a gray area as I was told by the judge.

    I tried contacting the Minister directly to look into my cas, but since they had been changing all the time (McDowell,Lenihan to Ahern). none seemed to care.

    I was forced to leave everything in Dublin in jan 2008 (my life, all my belongings and even my Dog!) as my permit had expired and I did not wish to stay illegally.

    Now I am trying to find employment in Ireland online, to return and build up my life form the start. I am divestated, upset and angry but this won't help me.

    Is this fair? NO but what can I do!!!!

    wow i feel really bad after reading that, what a disgrace the DOJ are, please do keep us updated this is just crazy :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Abed


    SWL wrote: »
    Great just what the Country needs in exchange for Citizenship more waster on the take, more reason why stringent tests/interviews should be carried out before the value of an Irish Passport is granted.

    I absolutely agree! I feel that the whole thing is being undervalued when I hear of such cases.

    I speak both English and Irish and know more than most average Irish people about Itish history ...etc my wife is Irish, so is my daughter who goes to a gaelscoil , well paid job and two masters from Ireland. However someone who barely speaks English collecting SW every month is looked at more favourably in terms of processing time.

    Absolute madness


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    shhhooooo you will begin to start talking sense

    sure once the application comes through, i think the applicant then has to pay circa €700 + before being sworn in, for the priviledge of citizenship.

    €1000.00 a pop actually. Small price to pay for the priviledge of attaining citizenship in ones adopted country, in my view.

    While I do agree the processing times are simply taking the piss, it's quite obvious they're sitting on the applications. Nobody can be that incompetent... I must say that I would prefer, and this from someone who's currently undergoing the process, that they were more strict/had some form of test/adopted or copied the UK version.

    At present it seems it's simply a paper excersise to attain one's new passport.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 qweqwe12


    Mena wrote: »
    €1000.00 a pop actually. Small price to pay for the priviledge of attaining citizenship in ones adopted country, in my view.

    While I do agree the processing times are simply taking the piss, it's quite obvious they're sitting on the applications. Nobody can be that incompetent... I must say that I would prefer, and this from someone who's currently undergoing the process, that they were more strict/had some form of test/adopted or copied the UK version.

    At present it seems it's simply a paper excersise to attain one's new passport.

    Hi Mena,
    No one is paying just €1000.00 only to apply for this so called privilege.
    On average every applicant IN PROCESS is waiting for almost 8 years and is LEGAL TAX PAYING Residence. You can count how much most of High Skilled Immigrants (which account for majority of immigrants from NON-EEA countries) have contributed to this adopted country = 8x12x1000 and many more in VAT's n what not.
    For what, yea limitless amount of immigration visits to Long waits in queues and 3 years + wait for Naturalisation (Keep in mind naturalisation's very first check is Legality i.e. how long legally one has been in Ireland)
    As for test/adopted country.... if you meant Irish History fair enough thats a valid thing... If u meant Irish Language... I wont mind... but language seem to have lost in own cause... I work under HSE and not a single word of Gaelic is spoken.. So why to force another paper exercise.
    Regards
    Ozzie


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    qweqwe12 wrote: »
    Hi Mena,
    No one is paying just €1000.00 only to apply for this so called privilege.
    On average every applicant IN PROCESS is waiting for almost 8 years and is LEGAL TAX PAYING Residence. You can count how much most of High Skilled Immigrants (which account for majority of immigrants from NON-EEA countries) have contributed to this adopted country = 8x12x1000 and many more in VAT's n what not.
    For what, yea limitless amount of immigration visits to Long waits in queues and 3 years + wait for Naturalisation (Keep in mind naturalisation's very first check is Legality i.e. how long legally one has been in Ireland)
    As for test/adopted country.... if you meant Irish History fair enough thats a valid thing... If u meant Irish Language... I wont mind... but language seem to have lost in own cause... I work under HSE and not a single word of Gaelic is spoken.. So why to force another paper exercise.
    Regards
    Ozzie

    For about the tenth time now it’s isn’t a so called privilege it is a privilege and if you don't value it don’t apply for it. You have the right to apply; the privilege is to have the Minister grant you Citizenship.

    Irish people have to pay PRSI, PAYE & VAT, not just foreigners, you have opted to work and live here you’re end of the deal is you pay taxes like everybody else in Irish society including Irish people, reading your post you would think only foreigners pay them, if you don’t like it work somewhere where you will also pay similar taxes.

    Also I think a balanced conclusion is to view the opportunities you receive from working in Ireland, rather than the tedious I pay taxes now give me what I want. Nobody forced you here in chains so stop acting like it

    Finally refer to Abed post no 73 on English language skills.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    SWL wrote: »
    For about the tenth time now it’s isn’t a so called privilege it is a privilege and if you don't value it don’t apply for it.

    Finally refer to Abed post no 73 on English language skills.

    minister is that you? :D

    if it is please answer why it takes 3 years here to push few paper around desks while it takes 1 month over in the UK for same procedure

    anyone who ever watched Dail debates sees this brought up every so often by TD's only to have the minister of justice give the same waffle over and over

    @SWL we are talking about peoples hopes and dreams here, we need every highly educated and tax paying "foreigner" (notices the inverted commas) we can get our hands on, if you don't agree i sure hope you never find yourself in a hospital here needing expert advice


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SWL wrote: »
    For about (.....)anguage skills.

    Wonderful piece of work there - ignoring all the valid points while getting ones own resentful rant in.

    He's talking about the inefficiency of the Department in question. He's perfectly entitled to question why its such a convoluted mess, just as much as I am.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 qweqwe12


    SWL wrote: »
    For about the tenth time now it’s isn’t a so called privilege it is a privilege and if you don't value it don’t apply for it. You have the right to apply; the privilege is to have the Minister grant you Citizenship.

    Irish people have to pay PRSI, PAYE & VAT, not just foreigners, you have opted to work and live here you’re end of the deal is you pay taxes like everybody else in Irish society including Irish people, reading your post you would think only foreigners pay them, if you don’t like it work somewhere where you will also pay similar taxes.

    Also I think a balanced conclusion is to view the opportunities you receive from working in Ireland, rather than the tedious I pay taxes now give me what I want. Nobody forced you here in chains so stop acting like it

    Finally refer to Abed post no 73 on English language skills.

    :):) My bad privilege ...
    As for taxes, i didnt say that Foreigners only pay taxes, all i meant was cost of naturalisation
    is way more than 1000 euros as ppl in queue contribute. All i wanted to share is frustration people in queue for naturalisation face.. and kind of lame words thrown at them. Nothing personal... i love this place and people no doubt abt it..
    Regards
    Ozzie


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    minister is that you? :D

    if it is please answer why it takes 3 years here to push few paper around desks while it takes 1 month over in the UK for same procedure

    anyone who ever watched Dail debates sees this brought up every so often by TD's only to have the minister of justice give the same waffle over and over

    @SWL we are talking about peoples hopes and dreams here, we need every highly educated and tax paying "foreigner" (notices the inverted commas) we can get our hands on, if you don't agree i sure hope you never find yourself in a hospital here needing expert advice

    Only a matter of time before the race card was played - if you read the thread you will see that I don't have problem with naturalisation of individuals, however just because people apply, don't mean they should automatically get which is what most are saying. Checks and procedures should be carried out, and the points I have made are being agreed with by naturalised citizens.


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    Nodin wrote: »
    Wonderful piece of work there - ignoring all the valid points while getting ones own resentful rant in.

    He's talking about the inefficiency of the Department in question. He's perfectly entitled to question why its such a convoluted mess, just as much as I am.

    Try reading the entire thread before jumping in with your usual view.
    Read post no 73 (from a naturalised citizen) before getting your own resentful rant in. If you can look beyond your victim mentality.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SWL wrote: »
    Only a matter of time before the race card was played -


    I was unaware there was a race referred to as "Foreigner".

    SWL wrote: »
    don't mean they should automatically get which is what most are saying. -


    No, most refer to the amount of time it takes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    Nodin wrote: »
    [/color]

    I was unaware there was a race referred to as "Foreigner".



    No, most refer to the amount of time it takes.

    Try reading the context of his post,

    I have viewed your attempts on other forms to sideline the thread for your own rants so bye bye.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SWL wrote: »
    Try reading the context of his post,

    I did, as I did the many other posters on the thread. They refer to inconsistencies, delays and inneffecieny. A person applying to this country to get in is entitled to an answer in a reasonable period of time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 qweqwe12


    SWL wrote: »
    Only a matter of time before the race card was played - if you read the thread you will see that I don't have problem with naturalisation of individuals, however just because people apply, don't mean they should automatically get which is what most are saying. Checks and procedures should be carried out, and the points I have made are being agreed with by naturalised citizens.

    Hi SWL,
    I do agree with your point of checks and balances.. I have no issue with that..
    All am saying is lack of transparency in the process and amount of delays..I know am not automatically entitled to citizenship...
    I guess you have never faced INIS or immigration department that is why you can talk. Anyways all in all, this thread is about naturalisation so i added my input to it.

    Regards
    Ozzie


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 qweqwe12


    Abed wrote: »
    I would like to clarify few points:
    Finally, I think the question we all have to answer is what can we do to improve things and not to whinge and moan and show off for the simple fact that we pay tax.

    Ok Lets not whinge and moan, lets hear what have you got in mind that will improve these things ? Specially to do with Naturalisation (Title of this thread) .. Any suggestions/things whereby we can highlight, improve or push some/any change in regards to naturalisation?
    Regards
    Ozzie


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Abed wrote: »
    I find the arrogant comments of some individuals regarding paying tax... etc quite unjustified. SWL rightly mentioned that every person working in Ireland does the same. in exchange for this revenue the state provides services such as the roads they use to go to work, the schools their children go to, and many many other services.
    No. Paying tax is not a duty of citizenship but of residency, to begin with.

    Additionally, if we accept the Hobbesian contract, then tax payers - be they citizens or not - are perfectly entitled to complain. After all, we pay taxes for those aforementioned services and protections and if what we see is poor value for our money, or is frankly not even delivered, then the government is in breach of its end of that contract.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    No. Paying tax is not a duty of citizenship but of residency, to begin with.

    Additionally, if we accept the Hobbesian contract, then tax payers - be they citizens or not - are perfectly entitled to complain. After all, we pay taxes for those aforementioned services and protections and if what we see is poor value for our money, or is frankly not even delivered, then the government is in breach of its end of that contract.

    These people are truly stuck in limbo for 8-10 years (need over 5 to apply and then a long long many years for St. Peter to decide :D)

    Yes they have to work and pay taxes in that time, you wont get naturalized if you were on the dole in that time period for example, and no they can not vote in elections for most part, so here we have taxation without representation...

    TDs and even EU keeps bringing up the disastrous state of our bureaucracy in this area, other EU members get to deal with huge volumes of applications as percentage and in volume, but of course this section of the public sector really does make a name for itself for wrong reasons


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 qweqwe12


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    These people are truly stuck in limbo for 8-10 years (need over 5 to apply and then a long long many years for St. Peter to decide :D)

    Yes they have to work and pay taxes in that time, you wont get naturalized if you were on the dole in that time period for example, and no they can not vote in elections for most part, so here we have taxation without representation...

    TDs and even EU keeps bringing up the disastrous state of our bureaucracy in this area, other EU members get to deal with huge volumes of applications as percentage and in volume, but of course this section of the public sector really does make a name for itself for wrong reasons

    Well said both of you. pretty much in context highlighting plight of Legal Immigrants in various queues.
    That was what i wanted to highlight in me previous replies but was misunderstood.
    Article below highlights it bit more:

    http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/press_detail.php?id=91

    Either way all we can do for now and wait patiently.
    Regards
    Ozzie


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Abed


    No. Paying tax is not a duty of citizenship but of residency, to begin with.

    Additionally, if we accept the Hobbesian contract, then tax payers - be they citizens or not - are perfectly entitled to complain. After all, we pay taxes for those aforementioned services and protections and if what we see is poor value for our money, or is frankly not even delivered, then the government is in breach of its end of that contract.

    You don't make any sense at all by quoting that passage of my post! I have never sugessted that tax is a duty of citizenship and not residency !!!

    Having clarified that, paying tax does not give you the right to get everything you wish. I don't think any right minded individual will listen to someone arguing that he/she should be accepted as a Garda by the Garda Commissioner and imposes a time frame on him just because he/she passes the eligibility criteria for applying and pays tax.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Abed wrote: »
    You don't make any sense at all by quoting that passage of my post! I have never sugessted that tax is a duty of citizenship and not residency !!!
    The passage followed one where you discussed citizenship, so it was a reasonable assumption to make. Nonetheless, it was the lesser of the two points I made.
    Having clarified that, paying tax does not give you the right to get everything you wish. I don't think any right minded individual will listen to someone arguing that he/she should be accepted as a Garda by the Garda Commissioner and imposes a time frame on him just because he/she passes the eligibility criteria for applying and pays tax.
    Indeed, however you never suggested this; you only cited the "roads they use to go to work, the schools their children go to, and many many other services" and frankly if tax payers don't get value for money for these, then they are perfectly entitled to complain, just as they are entitled to complain about perceived mismanagement of public money, such as the nationalization of NIB.

    Indeed, I actually believe that non-citizen taxpayers have a right to complain about such things a lot more than citizens that pay no tax (and no, I don't think that duty on alcohol and tobacco counts as paying tax in this regard).


Advertisement