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Female teachers having affairs with students

135

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    daithi2011 wrote: »
    Ive heard this one about every teacher, lecturer i've ever had. I put it down to idle made up gossip. One girl I know started spreading those rumors about a lecturer and her best friend told me that she was in bits one night and laid it all out to her in tears. The real story was that when she made advances to the lecturer but was rejected. Spread the stories for revenge.

    It happened in my final year in college and a girl started a rumour. . He was supervising her final year project and it was not going well.The girl was a friend of mine and I helped her research and write a different final year project without which she would not have graduated. (Totally altruistic & she never as much as bought me a sandwich).

    I also was the class rep.She told me her reason for the lie was financial as she would not have been able to repeat the year and she was desperate.

    It could have ruined her college career but as it was he ,graciously, allowed her switch and got her an all needed for extention from the Head of Department.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    Kimia wrote: »
    Several women have been sent to jail for years, do you think they deserved it? Do you think it's the same as child abuse when the 'child' involved is almost an adult - maybe 16/17/18?

    It is call equality. You cannot discriminate according to sex. So yes.
    If you Jail men for riding young female students as sex crimes, then you should jail female teachers for riding young male students. It is only fair.

    Even at 16/17/18, they still impressionable and easily misled, immature with all that sexual hormones going around. The Teachers are meant to be responsible they should be punished for been irresponsible as the students can easily be manipulate teachers to give good grades for lousy work.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    limklad wrote: »
    If you Jail men for riding young female students as sex crimes, then you should jail female teachers for riding young male students. It is only fair.

    It is easier not to discuss the value system which may allow this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    CDfm wrote: »
    How many ?

    14 year old boys usually like 14 year old girls.

    It is pretty well known how much of a fantasy that would be for most 14 year old boys. A large amount of conversations between boys that age in school will be about the "hot" teacher.

    The key word though is fantasy. Having a crush on your teachers, perfectly normal. Having a relationship with her, not so great. Most men just remember the crushes they had on their teachers and think that it would have been great if they came true. I imagine that the kids involved in these cases (especially those under 16) will think very differently in years to come.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Hey, but hormonally teenagers of both genders are all over the place.

    Lots of people have crushes but don't act on them. Adults in positions of authority ought not to.

    With a guy it is fairly clear cut - you know that there are lines not to cross and the punishments if they are.

    You don't have the same clarity for girls and women.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Giselle


    CDfm wrote: »

    You don't have the same clarity for girls and women.


    I think this thread shows how clear it is to most people, that its as heinious for a female instigator as for a male.

    I think Parker Kent is right in saying that at the time most 16 year old guys will be positive about the experience, but in later times they'll change that position.

    I think its true too of the reverse if a 16 year old girl gets with an older male teacher, she might see it as a badge of maturity at the time, but as real maturity sets in she'll see it for the explotation of authority that it is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Its a bit of a minefield. But say you got a woman predator targeting a teenage girl you would get more outrage than you would get with a boy being targeted by the same woman.

    It is just an odd mindset and there is no doubt in my mind that the reason some guys dont is that the law is so clear and the messages are unambiguous.

    Everyone knows the rules as it is criminalised and it is talked about and discussed because it is criminalised. Whereas, with women and boys( and boys hit puberty later than girls) the rules are not codified or actions criminalised or enforced to the same degree and may not even warrant a garda investigation,

    In that way, people are less "aware" and it is almost an academic concept or moral & ethical issue when it is discussed as opposed to a crime with criminal penalties which gets discussed and reported in the media.

    That in my mind is the distinction, and, of course, if a boy were to come forward with a complaint there is very little that can be done in terms of prosecution or investigation in Ireland as it is neither in our culture or laws to deal with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭johnn


    I agree, when you read what they did, such as the case of Pamela Rogers Turner, but then when you see what she looks like, you really have to ask your self; "WTF???!!!"

    Nice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    johnn wrote: »
    Nice.
    Ahh, that may be your first reaction (and in fairness it was mine too), but when you think about it how comfortable would you be with your 13-year old daughter sleeping with Brad Pit or Johnny Depp?


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭LilMsss


    I'm a teacher, mainly 16 + and Further Education, and although many of my students are 18 and over, there is not a chance in hell that I would ever even consider having a relationship with one of them! Apart from the ethical concerns, and professional repercussions, my students are sooo young to me, both emotionally and physically. I'm 30 BTW.

    Many of my male students have asked me out, or have made comments of a sexual nature to me (before anyone freaks out, some of the work I have done has been in education centres with troubled teens, so many of them are doing it to provoke a reaction, or for attention - even negative, so it's generally managed there and then, as opposed to how it would be handled in a formal school setting).

    I am involved in the emotional and educational development of my students, and there is just no way a situation like that would be allowed to arise in my classroom. Even if the student is the one attempting to initiate such a relationship, I am the professional, and couldn't fathom why any adult would want to have a relationship with a student (or child) in their care, regardless of the age difference.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    @lilmiss - and that is absolutely the way it should be.

    Thing is , not everyone thinks that way and the danger always is that those who do not will look on the profession you undertake ethically as an opportunity. It would be a shame, my mother was a remedial teacher and taught very disadvantaged boys.

    In that way, as we have seen in other areas , it is the exceptions that make the rules.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    CDfm wrote: »
    @lilmiss - and that is absolutely the way it should be.

    Thing is , not everyone thinks that way and the danger always is that those who do not will look on the profession you undertake ethically as an opportunity. It would be a shame, my mother was a remedial teacher and taught very disadvantaged boys.

    In that way, as we have seen in other areas , it is the exceptions that make the rules.

    And some are attracted to the profession for the opportunity it affords. I am ashamed to say I know a man who upon finding his attraction to men become younger and younger nearly decided to train as a Jesuit.

    Lil miss- I do not think it is acceptable for you to have to put up with sexual harrassment from your students.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    I agree, when you read what they did, such as the case of Pamela Rogers Turner, but then when you see what she looks like, you really have to ask your self; "WTF???!!!"

    Yeah but, being good-looking doesn't preclude you from being a sexual predator, which she is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,018 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    What about when one goes to University? Assuming the student is of legal age, should that duty of care argument prevent a teacher and student hooking up? Where does one draw the line?
    I've had one attractive lecturer in my time at university. She was doing a postdoc, quite young, attractive. Had she, or the opportunity, presented themself, I would not have seen anything wrong in having a relationship with her, as it were. It might have made things a little awkward if people found out, granted, but that would be up to us to consider.
    What about lab demonstrators and tutors who may easily be the same age as the students?

    (I'm not trying to use any of this as an argument that "female teachers having affairs with students" is okay - but the 'duty of care' concept has never been entirely clear to me...)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Ficheall wrote: »
    (I'm not trying to use any of this as an argument that "female teachers having affairs with students" is okay - but the 'duty of care' concept has never been entirely clear to me...)

    To me the duty of care arises when the person is in a position of care over a potentially vulnerable person. Ditto the power that they may hold over that person. A teacher is supposed to present a safe environment where kids are free to learn and grow. Having sex with them is not giving such an environment.

    The official description of the duty of care for teachers in Ireland is as follows. I think having sex with the students would not exactly count as acting like a reasonably prudent parent!
    The following general principles apply:

    Teachers must take reasonable care to ensure that their students do not meet with foreseeable injury. They have a duty to protect the children against foreseeable risks of personal injury or harm.

    The standard of care is that of a reasonably prudent parent. The degree of care depends on such factors as the age of the students.

    There must be an effective system of supervision in operation in the school.
    The duty of care applies while the students are on the school premises during school opening hours. It may also apply if the students are present outside of official school hours, e.g., if they arrive early or leave late and the teacher/school has agreed to the students being present

    The same duty of care applies if a teacher voluntarily supervises children.

    Teachers are required to follow good standards and approved practice. Risky classes and activities require a greater degree of supervision. If goggles, protective clothing, etc., are supplied for certain activities, it is the teacher's duty to ensure that they are worn

    Teachers are not insurers and cannot be responsible for every accident in school hours. The courts accept that some accidents will happen no matter how well supervision is carried out and, in such cases, the teacher/school cannot be held liable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,434 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Ficheall wrote: »
    What about when one goes to University? Assuming the student is of legal age, should that duty of care argument prevent a teacher and student hooking up? Where does one draw the line?
    I've had one attractive lecturer in my time at university. She was doing a postdoc, quite young, attractive. Had she, or the opportunity, presented themself, I would not have seen anything wrong in having a relationship with her, as it were. It might have made things a little awkward if people found out, granted, but that would be up to us to consider.
    What about lab demonstrators and tutors who may easily be the same age as the students?

    (I'm not trying to use any of this as an argument that "female teachers having affairs with students" is okay - but the 'duty of care' concept has never been entirely clear to me...)
    And if you had ended up in a relationship with her, would she have been able to guarantee it wouldn't have changed the nature of her teaching role with you? She wouldn't have graded you easier, or given you tips about what's coming up in an exam?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭nesbitt


    Any teacher having an affair with a student is wrong in my view...

    Thinking back to my own school days and I would rather have poked my eyes out with a sharp stick than go near any of them...:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Ficheall wrote: »

    (I'm not trying to use any of this as an argument that "female teachers having affairs with students" is okay - but the 'duty of care' concept has never been entirely clear to me...)

    It probably is in the same category as sleeping with your boss.

    If everything goes OK , then it is great, it is when it doesn't that there is a problem.

    The risk to the member of staff is that if it does they face a sexual harrassment issue which a normal person would not want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,018 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    28064212 wrote: »
    And if you had ended up in a relationship with her, would she have been able to guarantee it wouldn't have changed the nature of her teaching role with you? She wouldn't have graded you easier, or given you tips about what's coming up in an exam?

    Hot swedish blonde > few extra marks in a piss-easy subject, to be honest.

    But fine - I won't have sex with any of the people in my tutorials.
    sigh...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I 'spose it is very academic unless you get someone saying well I was in the situation or my friend was sleeping with an underage guy and I intervened/did not intervene.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    You don't need new laws, just enforce what's there

    Give them the same consequences if it was a male teacher with a female student. But then legal ages are different

    In the event the law is different I'd say

    If the student is underage, charge the teacher and bring them to court.
    If the student is of age, dismiss the teacher


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,434 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Ficheall wrote: »
    Hot swedish blonde > few extra marks in a piss-easy subject, to be honest.
    I didn't say marks were your motivation for wanting to do it. That's irrelevant. The problem is that any kind of relationship makes it impossible for her to remain objective. Part of her job description is to treat all students fairly and equally. She can't do that if she's sleeping with one of them. And even if she could, it would raise still attract resentment from the rest of the class
    Ficheall wrote: »
    But fine - I won't have sex with any of the people in my tutorials.
    sigh...
    Go ahead, just prepare to be fired.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    LilMsss wrote: »
    I'm a teacher, mainly 16 + and Further Education, and although many of my students are 18 and over, there is not a chance in hell that I would ever even consider having a relationship with one of them! Apart from the ethical concerns, and professional repercussions, my students are sooo young to me, both emotionally and physically. I'm 30 BTW.

    Many of my male students have asked me out, or have made comments of a sexual nature to me (before anyone freaks out, some of the work I have done has been in education centres with troubled teens, so many of them are doing it to provoke a reaction, or for attention - even negative, so it's generally managed there and then, as opposed to how it would be handled in a formal school setting).

    I am involved in the emotional and educational development of my students, and there is just no way a situation like that would be allowed to arise in my classroom. Even if the student is the one attempting to initiate such a relationship, I am the professional, and couldn't fathom why any adult would want to have a relationship with a student (or child) in their care, regardless of the age difference.
    28064212 wrote: »
    I didn't say marks were your motivation for wanting to do it. That's irrelevant. The problem is that any kind of relationship makes it impossible for her to remain objective. Part of her job description is to treat all students fairly and equally. She can't do that if she's sleeping with one of them. And even if she could, it would raise still attract resentment from the rest of the class


    Go ahead, just prepare to be fired.

    These kind of nail a lot of it down for me - its about values and ethics and safety.

    Education is about learning , growth & development for the student & not for intimate relationships by the teacher/carer.

    And, those values/rules should be enforced irrespective of gender.

    The huge question hanging off the cliff here is whether or not it happens here in ireland ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    This post has been deleted.
    I'm afraid not always:

    "[Judge Reynolds] pointed out that the maximum sentence she can hand down under this legislation is a term of seven years in prison.

    'Had this being a case of a male person being convicted - a much longer sentence would be allowed under more recently amended legislation. A man convicted of incest can be jailed up to a maximum of a life sentence,' she said."


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0122/roscommon.html

    If course, that appertains to cases of incest, but what is more worrying is that this discrimination is as a result of "recently amended legislation".
    The discrepancy exists because the girl can become pregnant. If the law disregarded gender, the very fact of a pregnancy could be adduced as evidence to prove a girl guilty of a criminal offense—meaning that a girl who had become pregnant by her underage boyfriend might be less likely to seek antenatal care and might even resort to a backstreet abortion in an effort to evade the criminal charge of having engaged in sexual activity with a minor.
    Which is of course utterly ridiculous, because as I posted earlier, neither should be charged. It is a disgusting, sexist law - effectively you've just admitted that it is just pleading the belly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 390 ✭✭Reward


    Notice how when its a female teacher and a student its always refereed to as "an affair" or "a romance" rather that it being presented as rape, or abuse.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 390 ✭✭Reward


    This post has been deleted.


    Its the same thing when female sex tourism is reported they are said to be "looking for romance" while a male sex tourist as we all know is evil. I do think there is a complete over reaction when it comes to male teacher with female student and a complete under-reaction when it is the other way around.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,434 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    This post has been deleted.
    The typical mistake is not realising that the two are not mutually exclusive. Just because it might be the teenager's dream does not mean it's not a predatory adult. Report's presenting it from one point of view does not mean the other is not true. If there was a 15 year-old fully-developed cheerleader who used her charms to get an attractive older man, there would be plenty of people saying she was opportunistic. It doesn't make what he did any less wrong

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