Trainerroad

Macy0161 · 07-02-2018 2:42pm

Tempted to try the ramp test as the clearing effort for the 20 minute test due in a couple of weeks? Just spin through the clearing effort in the test work out, or would the ramp test have me just too fecked?

Chumpski · 07-02-2018 2:52pm

Not sure, if you try it, let us know how it went. Ill wait till it becomes official. Even at that, ill probably wait till end of season.

By the way, the trainerroad podcast is brilliant. They talk about so much, including training, plans, nutrition and race tactics.

JimmiesRustled · 07-02-2018 3:09pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Tempted to try the ramp test as the clearing effort for the 20 minute test due in a couple of weeks? Just spin through the clearing effort in the test work out, or would the ramp test have me just too fecked?

Ramp test had me in a heap after. Similar type of test to the lactate and vo2 testing they do in trinity in terms of a workout. The test in trinity is set to 3 minute steps as opposed to 1 minute on TR. If you do it properly I can’t imagine having the will or power to get through anything but recovery/endurance.

Macy0161 · 12-03-2018 2:06pm

On a recovery week, so another go at the ramp test next week.

Saturday's workout did have me thinking again about a smart turbo v power meter. I was going to get a power meter, but realistically, most of my training is going to be done inside for the foreseeable. So bar giving me data afterwards from outside rides, rather than dictating the spins, does a power meter still trump a smart turbo?

bp_me · 12-03-2018 3:21pm

Most smart trainers don't have a power meter built in. In my experience tacx flux under reads about 10w up to 200w after which it's accurate. Tacx vortex is down about 10% everywhere.

joey100 · 12-03-2018 3:29pm

I've found the kickr (version 1) to read high. I use a power2max power meter with it. Honestly I don't use the smart trainers features enough, I got a little bored of zwift and find trainer road better for training. I haven't really used erg mode either, not out of any decision or any thinking on it, I just do the sessions as they come up and do my best to hit the numbers. If it were me I'd be buying a power meter, you can use that outside too and we race outside (mostly!). Power meter gives you power data inside and out, smart trainer will give you power data inside and some extra features but no power outside.

Macy0161 · 12-03-2018 3:45pm

joey100 wrote: »

Most smart trainers don't have a power meter built in. In my experience tacx flux under reads about 10w up to 200w after which it's accurate. Tacx vortex is down about 10% everywhere.

I'm not too bothered once it's consistent really.

joey100 wrote: »

If it were me I'd be buying a power meter, you can use that outside too and we race outside (mostly!). Power meter gives you power data inside and out, smart trainer will give you power data inside and some extra features but no power outside.

Well that was my original thinking, but my head is getting a bit fried left side v total v dual, and compatibility between bikes (and cost of pedal options).

It was actually for erg mode that I thought a smart turbo would be an advantage, as I'm finding gear selection a pain in the arse to hit suggested cadence targets, especially during microburst sets.

I guess my thinking was along the lines I'll get power data outside, but what am I actually going to do with that data?

joey100 · 12-03-2018 4:01pm

I wouldn't say there is any one fits all solution, it's going to be down to your individual situation, budget and goals.

I'm not sure erg mode will help during micro bursts, would the turbo be quick enough responding before the end of the interval, I've never used it but if it responds like it does on zwift it takes a few seconds to catch up with the change in gradient. Something to look into anyway.

Chumpski · 12-03-2018 4:08pm

I find ERG mode helpful during the microbursts so i dont go too hard and fry myself too early.

Im on a Tacx Neo. It does take a couple of seconds to catch up and hit the power target and for microbursts the overall power target you hit will be lower when you finish each burst. For me im usually 30 watts under. But i figure thats better than being way over for a set and then not being able to do the rest.

jamesd · 12-03-2018 4:08pm

joey100 wrote: »

I wouldn't say there is any one fits all solution, it's going to be down to your individual situation, budget and goals.

I'm not sure erg mode will help during micro bursts, would the turbo be quick enough responding before the end of the interval, I've never used it but if it responds like it does on zwift it takes a few seconds to catch up with the change in gradient. Something to look into anyway.

Find my vortex slow to respond for the bursts.

Macy0161 · 12-03-2018 4:17pm

Thanks all - food for thought (and more inaction!

)

bp_me · 12-03-2018 4:47pm

For trainers that are slow in ERG mode you probably have smoothing set in the software doing the control.

Irish Raven · 12-03-2018 5:07pm

I have a smart turbo...tacx bushido....the so called wattage vampire!! and i have power meter pedals. when using turbo I train in erg mode, its perfect...only difference is the numbers...I have a turbo ftp...and a road ftp....smart trainer reads up to 60watts less of a difference to the vectors...so i train with the turbo ftp and its consistent...thats whats key...is consistancy....if your aim is to use structure on turbo trainer....a smart turbo is all you need....

doozerie · 12-03-2018 11:34pm

I prefer training by power rather than heart rate, I train to the numbers so I ideally want consistency of power measurement for every session, I favour turbo sessions in erg mode, and as much as I dislike FTP tests outdoors I dislike them even more on the turbo, all of which dictate my choice of training tools below.

So, the options I’d look at personally, from most to least preferred:

1) A reliable power meter on my bike (and preferably one that measures both legs independently) that I can use both outdoors and on the turbo, for “guaranteed” consistency of power measures across all sessions. Do an outdoor FTP test, choose a slightly lower FTP for indoor sessions. Use erg mode on the turbo, based on power measured from the power meter. Masochistically happy.

2) A power meter on bike for outdoors, a trustworthy measure of power built into the turbo. As above, do outdoor FTP test, derive (lower) indoor FTP from that. Use erg mode on the turbo, based on its own power measurement. Masochistically content.

3) A trustworthy measure of power built into the turbo. Do an indoor FTP test, from that derive my training heart rate zones and train to those for outdoor sessions. Use erg mode on the turbo. Not happy.

4) A non-smart turbo, use TrainerRoad to measure virtual power (so pick a turbo which they describe as “accurate”). Indoor FTP test, derive heart rate training zones from that for outdoor sessions. No erg mode. Very sad.

5) Sell/burn bikes. Buy lots of Haagen-Daz Belgian Chocolate ice-cream and a big TV. Death by chocolate. Messy but glorious.

doozerie · 12-03-2018 11:40pm

Chumpski wrote: »

Im on a Tacx Neo. It does take a couple of seconds to catch up and hit the power target...

This behaviour probably varies according to the software you use to control erg mode but on TrainerRoad it ramps up the resistance in the 2 or 3 seconds before the interval. So you get the appropriate resistance for the full interval - well, almost the full interval, it ramps it back down again for the last 2 or 3 seconds.

That gives you the chance to adjust your cadence (and it the chance to adjust the resistance in response) before the interval starts, should you want to.

Chumpski · 13-03-2018 12:28am

doozerie wrote: »

This behaviour probably varies according to the software you use to control erg mode but on TrainerRoad it ramps up the resistance in the 2 or 3 seconds before the interval. So you get the appropriate resistance for the full interval - well, almost the full interval, it ramps it back down again for the last 2 or 3 seconds.

That gives you the chance to adjust your cadence (and it the chance to adjust the resistance in response) before the interval starts, should you want to.

Yep, for microbursts though, typically 15 seconds, I mean that there isn’t a chance for the power to average out in such a way so you hit the power target exactly as ERG mode seems to keep you near target rather than compensating for the first few seconds building up.

Am I mis understanding you? Maybe. I’m not sure it’s possible to hit power target dead on for those really short intervals.

doozerie · 13-03-2018 9:30am

Chumpski wrote: »

Yep, for microbursts though, typically 15 seconds, I mean that there isn’t a chance for the power to average out in such a way so you hit the power target exactly as ERG mode seems to keep you near target rather than compensating for the first few seconds building up.

Am I mis understanding you? Maybe. I’m not sure it’s possible to hit power target dead on for those really short intervals.

Yeah, I think microbursts are a challenge for erg mode and realistically I don't think it's possible to match and maintain the target power exactly for such a short effort.

I don't see that as a problem though, certainly for any of the sessions that I do such short bursts are always either a sprint or a high cadence burst. In either case, and particularly with a sprint, you'll always produce a spike(s) or maybe a sloped line rather than a flat line in terms of power output, erg mode or not, and I think there is no need as such to try to achieve a flat line.

Erg mode is a funny one when it comes to sprints, set the target power too low and you'll spin out, set it too high and you could almost grind to a halt. It took me a few attempts before I settled on target power figures that put me somewhere in the middle where it felt like the mix of cadence and resistance was about "right" i.e. felt more like I'd expect a sprint on the road to feel.

Macy0161 · 13-03-2018 10:01am

Thanks all. With the micro bursts, and even the short sprint intervals it's more the recoveries that I was really struggling with for the cadence - Chad was telling me to maintain leg speed in the valleys, but I just couldn't do the gear changes in the time frame. I think I could/ should reduce the power smoothing for those workouts too, as I feel that probably lead to me overshooting at the start of bursts too.

Anyway, probably back to plan A of a power meter, given that it's one or the other really (unless the price of power meters and smart direct drive both continue their current price drops!).

Chumpski · 13-03-2018 10:19am

Id bet its a hell of alot easier to do such workouts with erg mode aiding you. Its pretty much training with your brain off, forget about gear and resistance, just hit your cadence target. I love erg mode for that.

Macy0161 · 13-03-2018 10:32am

Chumpski wrote: »

Id bet its a hell of alot easier to do such workouts with erg mode aiding you. Its pretty much training with your brain off, forget about gear and resistance, just hit your cadence target. I love erg mode for that.

Yeah, well that's where my thought process was going as well. But on reflection I think someone did ask the question on a recent enough TrainerRoad podcast (with the very same turbo I have) and they went power meter over turbo upgrade.

joey100 · 13-03-2018 10:45am

On a recent podcast they recommended not using erg mode for all your workouts too, that it was good for you to figure out what it felt like to put out the required power using different cadences and efforts, that in a way erg mode can hide what it actually feels like to put out the power because you can turn off your brain and the turbo will alter the resistance to make sure you hold the power.

dahat · 14-03-2018 9:06pm

As I'm unable to do road atm but I'm still aiming to make the W200 so looking to do the 8 week Climbing Road Race (low volume) + an endurance weekend spin.

It will be interesting to train for the W200 Alonso exclusively indoors!

bp_me · 14-03-2018 9:14pm

dahat wrote: »

As I'm unable to do road atm but I'm still aiming to make the W200 so looking to do the 8 week Climbing Road Race (low volume) + an endurance weekend spin.

It will be interesting to train for the W200 Alonso exclusively indoors!

What about the century plan?

dahat · 14-03-2018 9:27pm

bp_me wrote: »

What about the century plan?

Looks a decent plan but as I'm sort of hoping to train for a return to racing I'd wonder if the century plan would be suitable?

I need to train for W200 while maintaining race level training as best I manage.

bp_me · 14-03-2018 9:29pm

dahat wrote: »

Looks a decent plan but as I'm sort of hoping to train for a return to racing I'd wonder if the century plan would be suitable?

I need to train for W200 while maintaining race level training as best I manage.

Makes sense. In that case I'ld be inclined just to keep going for the race training at the highest volume I could tolerate and just drop W200 into it at a sensible intensity level on the day. Of course having not done the event then maybe Im under-estimating it.

dahat · 14-03-2018 9:34pm

bp_me wrote: »

Makes sense. In that case I'ld be inclined just to keep going for the race training at the highest volume I could tolerate and just drop W200 into it at a sensible intensity level on the day. Of course having not done the event then maybe Im under-estimating it.

Having done it last year off race fitness(A4 level) alone with no specific W200 training I'm hoping that the CRR plan + 1 endurance spin will get me to a certain level.
It will be an interesting experiment as the earliest ill be back on the road is end of April.

Macy0161 · 20-03-2018 10:51am

Did the ramp test again last night - dropped the power smoothing to 1 second and tried to undershoot on the way up. Haven't had the official post, but going on the 0.76 of max minute it's exactly the FTP I was working to already, but much better than the results I got the previous two times (in terms of test result v FTP I was working to fine already).

On the one hand, I'm still don't think it's ideal with a dumb/ non smart trainer. Gear selection was definitely an issue rather than just hold it consistent I think. But at the same time, I was definitely not as fresh as I would've needed to be to do a decent 20 minute test. I just did a half hour workout afterwards (volunteer), but I am also thinking a longer warm up first might help me too (a dialled down taku, or just a freeride).

dahat · 20-03-2018 8:52pm

With regards to VO2 intervals, are the TrainerRoad guidelines of 100rpm plus correct for these intervals?
I'm personally finding 100rpm plus though and always have tbh especially over 3 min intervals.

JimmiesRustled · 20-03-2018 10:49pm

dahat wrote: »

With regards to VO2 intervals, are the TrainerRoad guidelines of 100rpm plus correct for these intervals?
I'm personally finding 100rpm plus though and always have tbh especially over 3 min intervals.

For VO2 intervals id stick with whatever is comfortable between 85-105 rpm. Increasing cadence taxes your cardiovasucular system more which for most is desirable.

VO2 max intervals should be all about training power at whatever cadence is comfortable. Use the enndurance/recovery workouts or even sweetspot workouts to try and get used to a higher cadence if that makes sense.

dahat · 27-03-2018 10:50pm

Is there a way to import the workout to a Garmin 520?

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