Jessica Yaniv refused service at gynaecologist's office

Calhoun · 05-12-2019 11:51pm

Sir Oxman wrote: »

?

At this stage, Squats n Coke was adding more to the thread than you are with this line of quackery.

One person has enough of walls of text bull****tery from one person
versus
An activist(?) who I guess uses Twitter to spread his message likely utilising a blocklist of hundreds maybe thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of users some of which (me) have never interacted with him.
Of course he's welcome to do that - just like Gemma.

Non-bubble
versus
Bubble.

This is very true, its the twitter bubble that generally leads to the dangerous practices as its re-enforcing some really questionable behavior. Especially in the Irish sense there is a little bubble around Dublin for certain types.

As i said in an earlier post, the topless swim session that Yaniv was pushing for was only in response to other trans activists being denied a topless session for youths of 12-24.

Its threads a very fine line and who thought it was a good idea i don't know. We haven't quite got there yet at home the battle we are fighting over is going to be the likes of self ID and what age a person can start transition. The end goal i would say for those activists will be around 12 or pre-puberty and when its more socially acceptable i would say we will see them being more bullish about it.

05-12-2019 11:52pm

This is gas. There are significant difference between male and female anatomy. Just bizarre that they would go to a gynae. Better to go to a urologist. Never seen a female get prostate cancer.

TheW1zard · 05-12-2019 11:54pm

Im outraged

One eyed Jack · 05-12-2019 11:55pm

Rodin wrote: »

People can call themselves whatever they want.

But doctors deal with biological entities, not legal ones.

This person is not a woman who needs a gynaecologist. And no court order can change that.

The difference between biology and legal gender is grossly underappreciated.

It’s not nearly as simple as that unfortunately. Doctors deal with biological entities according to the law, which causes all sorts of problems for people who are transgender as regards their healthcare. Screening for example, is one of the areas where it’s a bit of a minefield. I’m not even going to begin to attempt to explain the permutations involved here but I’d suggest you don’t just take my word for it -

Information for trans people - NHS Screening Programme

AndrewJRenko · 05-12-2019 11:58pm

Calhoun wrote: »

This is very true, its the twitter bubble that generally leads to the dangerous practices as its re-enforcing some really questionable behavior. Especially in the Irish sense there is a little bubble around Dublin for certain types.

As i said in an earlier post, the topless swim session that Yaniv was pushing for was only in response to other trans activists being denied a topless session for youths of 12-24.

Its threads a very fine line and who thought it was a good idea i don't know. We haven't quite got there yet at home the battle we are fighting over is going to be the likes of self ID and what age a person can start transition. The end goal i would say for those activists will be around 12 or pre-puberty and when its more socially acceptable i would say we will see them being more bullish about it.

1) What's the connection between the Dublin Twitter bubble and some strange person in Canada?

2) What is the 'battle you are fighting over the likes of self ID' given that it has been in place in Ireland for a few years now?

3) Who is the 'we' that you're speaking for?

Calhoun · 06-12-2019 12:08am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

1) What's the connection between the Dublin Twitter bubble and some strange person in Canada?

2) What is the 'battle you are fighting over the likes of self ID' given that it has been in place in Ireland for a few years now?

3) Who is the 'we' that you're speaking for?

A re-enforcing bubble leads to situations that breed the likes of Yaniv or the less extreme Encompass group who come up with ideas like topless swim parties for youths of 12-24.

The battle currently being fought is for self ID to be all that is needed to kick off gender transformation.

The we is Ireland in general as in we have yet to see the extremes of Yaniv in a domestic sense. If Ireland saw a loosening of when we did our transformations we could possibly see some of those extremes.

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2019 12:10am

Dante7 wrote: »

Again, what human rights are trans people being denied?

Just so I’m clear then on your position - you’re arguing against self-ID laws, which would mean denying people their human rights, but you’re asking me what human rights are trans people being denied?

So your whole “us men must stand up and defend women’s sex based rights” nonsense earlier was based upon what exactly? Because nobody is being denied their human rights from what I can see, apart from your arguing that people should be denied their human rights because some people are pricks.

That isn’t how human rights law operates.

AndrewJRenko · 06-12-2019 12:16am

Calhoun wrote: »

A re-enforcing bubble leads to situations that breed the likes of Yaniv or the less extreme Encompass group who come up with ideas like topless swim parties for youths of 12-24.

The battle currently being fought is for self ID to be all that is needed to kick off gender transformation.

The we is Ireland in general as in we have yet to see the extremes of Yaniv in a domestic sense. If Ireland saw a loosening of when we did our transformations we could possibly see some of those extremes.

1) Yaniv and ENcompass have nothing to do with Ireland. What is the connection with the Dublin Twitter bubble?

2) There is no battle being fought for self id. The battle is over. The war is won. Self ID has been in place here for a few years now.

3) You don't speak for Ireland in general.

Dante7 · 06-12-2019 12:21am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Just so I’m clear then on your position - you’re arguing against self-ID laws, which would mean denying people their human rights, but you’re asking me what human rights are trans people being denied?

So your whole “us men must stand up and defend women’s sex based rights” nonsense earlier was based upon what exactly? Because nobody is being denied their human rights from what I can see, apart from your arguing that people should be denied their human rights because some people are pricks.

That isn’t how human rights law operates.

Yada, yada, yada. You said that trans people were being denied human rights. For the fourth time, could you please explain what human rights trans people are being denied?

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2019 12:31am

Dante7 wrote: »

Yada, yada, yada. You said that trans people were being denied human rights. For the fourth time, could you please explain what human rights trans people are being denied?

No, what I said was that I disagree with anyone being denied their human rights, which is what happened before the self-ID laws which you are arguing against, were introduced. Now nobody is being denied their human rights, not even women, as you proclaimed earlier that “us men” should stand up for.

Stand up for what exactly when nobody is being denied their human rights?

Rodin · 06-12-2019 12:31am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s not nearly as simple as that unfortunately. Doctors deal with biological entities according to the law, which causes all sorts of problems for people who are transgender as regards their healthcare. Screening for example, is one of the areas where it’s a bit of a minefield. I’m not even going to begin to attempt to explain the permutations involved here but I’d suggest you don’t just take my word for it -

Information for trans people - NHS Screening Programme

I actually think that document is very fair.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 12:36am

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Seems ridiculous at first, but read the twitter thread and I feel she may have a point...

https://twitter.com/trustednerd/status/1201665480504668162

her three other tweets in that thread:

How do you feel about this?

I'm not too sure, Trans people should have access to services they need, but I don't know if every gynaecological surgery should or could be able to handle cases like these...

There are very people who are more pro trans rights than me, I’ve had many’s the argument on boards about it. But this is actually ridiculous. It’s fighting a battle that shouldn’t be fought.

ingalway · 06-12-2019 2:00am

Why is it/should it be a human right to self I'd yourself as anything you choose based on an internal feeling and not on biological reality?
Why should women make way in single sex spaces for men who say they feel they are women? Being a woman is not a feeling, it's a biological fact and a lived experience that you don't suddenly acquire because you put a dress on.
The largest union of college and uni lecturer's in the UK, University and College Union state:
"UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being Black, disabled, LGBT+ or women"
Anyone here that feels self ID is a human right - do you equally believe it is a human right to self ID as black, disabled? I notice they only specify "women". Funny that.
Self ID is not a human right, Genuine body dysmorphia needs careful handling and support and when appropriate transition over a period of time. Transition does not mean putting on a dress, loads of makeup, high heels and long hair, all that does is reinforce gender stereotypes, exactly what the trans activists say they are fighting against!
Simply declaring yourself something is meaningless if you are not that. If I tell you I am a black, disabled man, you would plainly see if I were in front of you I am non of those but self id is a human right therefore you must indulge me.
Pandering to narcissists is not the answer.

One eyed Jack · 06-12-2019 3:37am

ingalway wrote: »

Why is it/should it be a human right to self I'd yourself as anything you choose based on an internal feeling and not on biological reality?
Why should women make way in single sex spaces for men who say they feel they are women? Being a woman is not a feeling, it's a biological fact and a lived experience that you don't suddenly acquire because you put a dress on.
The largest union of college and uni lecturer's in the UK, University and College Union state:
"UCU has a long history of enabling members to self-identify whether that is being Black, disabled, LGBT+ or women"
Anyone here that feels self ID is a human right - do you equally believe it is a human right to self ID as black, disabled? I notice they only specify "women". Funny that.
Self ID is not a human right, Genuine body dysmorphia needs careful handling and support and when appropriate transition over a period of time. Transition does not mean putting on a dress, loads of makeup, high heels and long hair, all that does is reinforce gender stereotypes, exactly what the trans activists say they are fighting against!
Simply declaring yourself something is meaningless if you are not that. If I tell you I am a black, disabled man, you would plainly see if I were in front of you I am non of those but self id is a human right therefore you must indulge me.
Pandering to narcissists is not the answer.

Human rights for starters anyway were never based upon biological realities. They are entirely based upon feelings, morals, values, principles, ideals.

Asking why should women make space in single sex spaces for men who say they are women is a bit like asking why should anyone make space for anyone in any given space. The answer is simply because no rights are absolute - so in just the same way as men had to make room for women in the workplace, so too do women have to make room for men who say they are women in women’s spaces.

It’s not a human right to identify oneself as either black or disabled if one is neither black nor disabled, and that’s not a right I personally would have any interest in supporting. Could it become a human right at some point in the future? Possibly. But at the moment there doesn’t appear to be any demand for it, unlike the circumstances of people who are transgender or non-binary.

I do agree with you that body dysphoria and dysmorphia does need careful handling, and that’s why I don’t particularly care for someone like Yanniv who IMO is frankly taking the piss. I don’t support the idea of ‘transitioning’ though because as you’ve already pointed out - it’s biologically impossible, and at best all will ever be achieved is an approximation of the sex they aspire to be, whether that be either male or female. There are a growing number of people identifying themselves as transgender who have no inclination to undergo any kind of medical treatment, instead simply satisfying themselves with social transition (or pulling on a dress, makeup and high heels, if you prefer), and there are those people for whom the results of their medical treatments are unsatisfying, and they revert to their previous physiology before medical or surgical transition (or try to anyway, with mixed and often unfortunate results). The point I’m making is that in just the same way as we are often reminded that women are not a hive mind, neither are people who are transgender - they all have their own ideas and it’s a pretty murky rabbit hole between ”truscum” and “tucutes” (don’t look at me, I don’t come up with these terms :pac:).

Simply declaring yourself something is of course meaningless, but if you are legally recognised in law as whatever you claim to be, then that is exercising what is, contrary to your opinion, a human right. It would be pandering to narcissists if we were simply to allow anyone to declare what are or aren’t human rights based upon their own internal feelings, and that’s why human rights law doesn’t pander to your opinion for example. I’m not suggesting you’re a narcissist, but that’s the definition of a narcissist, and you’re right, it’s not the answer - no one individual should have the power to determine what human rights another individual is or isn’t entitled to. Human rights are recognised and protected by the State, and so in just the same way as you aren’t obligated to indulge anyone you don’t want to, they too have the same right not to indulge you if they choose not to. They also have the right to be recognised in law as their preferred gender by the State.

ingalway · 06-12-2019 7:47am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Human rights for starters anyway were never based upon biological realities. They are entirely based upon feelings, morals, values, principles, ideals.

Asking why should women make space in single sex spaces for men who say they are women is a bit like asking why should anyone make space for anyone in any given space. The answer is simply because no rights are absolute - so in just the same way as men had to make room for women in the workplace, so too do women have to make room for men who say they are women in women’s spaces.

It’s not a human right to identify oneself as either black or disabled if one is neither black nor disabled, and that’s not a right I personally would have any interest in supporting. Could it become a human right at some point in the future? Possibly. But at the moment there doesn’t appear to be any demand for it, unlike the circumstances of people who are transgender or non-binary.

I do agree with you that body dysphoria and dysmorphia does need careful handling, and that’s why I don’t particularly care for someone like Yanniv who IMO is frankly taking the piss. I don’t support the idea of ‘transitioning’ though because as you’ve already pointed out - it’s biologically impossible, and at best all will ever be achieved is an approximation of the sex they aspire to be, whether that be either male or female. There are a growing number of people identifying themselves as transgender who have no inclination to undergo any kind of medical treatment, instead simply satisfying themselves with social transition (or pulling on a dress, makeup and high heels, if you prefer), and there are those people for whom the results of their medical treatments are unsatisfying, and they revert to their previous physiology before medical or surgical transition (or try to anyway, with mixed and often unfortunate results). The point I’m making is that in just the same way as we are often reminded that women are not a hive mind, neither are people who are transgender - they all have their own ideas and it’s a pretty murky rabbit hole between ”truscum” and “tucutes” (don’t look at me, I don’t come up with these terms :pac:).

Simply declaring yourself something is of course meaningless, but if you are legally recognised in law as whatever you claim to be, then that is exercising what is, contrary to your opinion, a human right. It would be pandering to narcissists if we were simply to allow anyone to declare what are or aren’t human rights based upon their own internal feelings, and that’s why human rights law doesn’t pander to your opinion for example. I’m not suggesting you’re a narcissist, but that’s the definition of a narcissist, and you’re right, it’s not the answer - no one individual should have the power to determine what human rights another individual is or isn’t entitled to. Human rights are recognised and protected by the State, and so in just the same way as you aren’t obligated to indulge anyone you don’t want to, they too have the same right not to indulge you if they choose not to. They also have the right to be recognised in law as their preferred gender by the State.

Well I'm glad we agree that no one can ever change their sex and that what we are really talking about here are cross dressers. No problem with a cross dresser but as we agree a woman it does not make so they have no rights to women's spaces, sports etc.
If you choose self id in this scenario then you must be prepared for all the crazy scenarios such as black and disabled that are coming and their claims must be no less legitimate than women being told that women can have a penis.
BTW - thanks for all the great jobs you gave us. Very kind.

suicide_circus · 06-12-2019 9:28am

participating in a lie always has the potential for negative consequences.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 9:33am

ingalway wrote: »

Well I'm glad we agree that no one can ever change their sex and that what we are really talking about here are cross dressers. No problem with a cross dresser but as we agree a woman it does not make so they have no rights to women's spaces, sports etc.
If you choose self id in this scenario then you must be prepared for all the crazy scenarios such as black and disabled that are coming and their claims must be no less legitimate than women being told that women can have a penis.
BTW - thanks for all the great jobs you gave us. Very kind.

Here’s some facts:

Gender dysmorphia is a very real issue that needs to be treated.

People can legally change their gender.

Here’s some opinions:

Accepting the above doesn’t mean we have to accept that people can identify as anything they like, in a legal sense.

If someone wants to identify as disabled, grand, but they can’t be given disability allowances because they don’t actually have a disability.

If someone wants to identify as black. Grand, go for it. Why does it matter? You’re harming no one and get zero benefits for it. It’s not as if you change you race to black legally.

ingalway · 06-12-2019 10:09am

Brian? wrote: »

Here’s some facts:

Gender dysmorphia is a very real issue that needs to be treated.

People can legally change their gender.

Here’s some opinions:

Accepting the above doesn’t mean we have to accept that people can identify as anything they like, in a legal sense.

If someone wants to identify as disabled, grand, but they can’t be given disability allowances because they don’t actually have a disability.

If someone wants to identify as black. Grand, go for it. Why does it matter? You’re harming no one and get zero benefits for it. It’s not as if you change you race to black legally.

Give me strength.
There is no point in me stating yet again that that having men in women's single sex (not gender) spaces and sports is harmful to women and girls, especially girls. There is no point saying that because you and TRAs don't care about that, the ONLY important thing is that men get whatever they want.
And you really see no other issue of white people pretending to be black? Blackface would be the social transition version I suppose?
Or non disabled pretending to be disabled other than not getting their fantastic disability allowance?
Why should their legal status not reflect how they 'truly' feel. Who are we to gatekeep their true feelings of race or disability?
Self Identification surely can't only be about what sex you think you have the right to choose to be, it has to encompass all possibilities of how you wish to identify your special self?
Or is it actually only really about men getting what they want?
The attached copy of a tweet sums it up well.

suicide_circus · 06-12-2019 10:13am

plenty of m to f transitions seem to happen later in life, when these people have married and had families. where are the f to m people transitioning in their 50s ?

wellwhynot · 06-12-2019 10:18am

85% of trans women keep their penis. They are male. They were born a man and will die a man. Why should women be forced to accept a man in a dress into their spaces so as not to upset the mans feelings? Toilets, changing rooms, refuges, safe spaces, sports and prisons.

Trans activists have successfully managed to remove the word/symbol for women out of periods and pregnancy. In some countries it is now pregnant person rather than pregnant woman. It is biologically impossible for a man to ever get pregnant so why are we pondering to this nonsense. They are trying to erase women. If trans women do not feel safe in male spaces why not fight for a third?

I will not refer to Yaniv as she/her for the same reason as I would not agree that an anorexic is fat. It is not true and I would be lying if I said it.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 10:29am

ingalway wrote: »

Give me strength.
There is no point in me stating yet again that that having men in women's single sex (not gender) spaces and sports is harmful to women and girls, especially girls. There is no point saying that because you and TRAs don't care about that, the ONLY important thing is that men get whatever they want.

You're turning an incredibly complicated trans issue into black and white issue of misogyny. I don't understand why you are so intent in oversimplifying the issue.

I don't think trans women should be allowed compete in women's sports. There are clear scientific reasons why the have an advantage.

Trans women in women's spaces? It's a head breaker.

I didn't mention either of these in my post, so I am not sure why you're addressing them to me though. My point was that it's complicated and far from as simple as you make out.

And you really see no other issue of white people pretending to be black? Blackface would be the social transition version I suppose?
Or non disabled pretending to be disabled other than not getting their fantastic disability allowance?
Why should their legal status not reflect how they 'truly' feel. Who are we to gatekeep their true feelings of race or disability?
Self Identification surely can't only be about what sex you think you have the right to choose to be, it has to encompass all possibilities of how you wish to identify your special self?

You're attempting to make a point by arguing it to the absurd.

I honestly couldn't care less how people self identify. It doesn't mean I believe they should have legal protection to do so.

So I'm fine with people self identifying any way they want, as long is it doesn't harm anyone. Why do you care so much? Apart of arguing to the absurd.

Or is it actually only really about men getting what they want?
The attached copy of a tweet sums it up well.

This is a new argument I've been hearing more of recently. Some feminists believe this is about men attempting to reassert themselves as they lose power. I'm concerned it might be true in Some cases. However that doesn't overrule the rights of trans people, both male to female and female to male.

The person in the OP is a provocateur who is doing more harm than good to the trans cause IMO.

I absolutely don't support everyone's right to be outraged, which seems to be the real core of this argument. Trans people get outraged, transphobic people get counter outrages, people in the middle get outraged by both sets of outrage and the circular discussion starts again.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 10:30am

suicide_circus wrote: »

plenty of m to f transitions seem to happen later in life, when these people have married and had families. where are the f to m people transitioning in their 50s ?

Why do you care?

Brian? · 06-12-2019 10:32am

wellwhynot wrote: »

85% of trans women keep their penis. They are male. They were born a man and will die a man. Why should women be forced to accept a man in a dress into their spaces so as not to upset the mans feelings? Toilets, changing rooms, refuges, safe spaces, sports and prisons.

Trans activists have successfully managed to remove the word/symbol for women out of periods and pregnancy. In some countries it is now pregnant person rather than pregnant woman. It is biologically impossible for a man to ever get pregnant so why are we pondering to this nonsense. They are trying to erase women. If trans women do not feel safe in male spaces why not fight for a third?

I will not refer to Yaniv as she/her for the same reason as I would not agree that an anorexic is fat. It is not true and I would be lying if I said it.

Did you ever look into why 85% of transgender people don't get gender reassignment surgery? Or are you happy to make a snap judgement on it.

06-12-2019 10:40am

Brian? wrote: »

Did you ever look into why 85% of transgender people don't get gender reassignment surgery? Or are you happy to make a snap judgement on it.

Would you comply and refer to anorexic people as fat if they identified as overweight?

Sir Oxman · 06-12-2019 10:42am

Brian? wrote: »

Why do you care?

Brian? wrote: »

Did you ever look into why 85% of transgender people don't get gender reassignment surgery? Or are you happy to make a snap judgement on it.

Make your mind up.
That looks like either everyone should shut up and ask zero questions or everyone should ask questions.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 10:44am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would you comply and refer to anorexic people as fat if they identified as overweight?

Complete false equivalency.

And not even remotely related to the post you quoted. Bizarre.

Brian? · 06-12-2019 10:46am

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Make your mind up.
That looks like either everyone should shut up and ask zero questions or everyone should ask questions.

Those 2 statements don’t contradict each other in the least, you’re being silly. Possibly a silly goose.

One is in response to someone expressing an opinion on transgender people.

One is asking a simple clarifying question. I’m not saying they have no right to ask.

suicide_circus · 06-12-2019 10:48am

Brian? wrote: »

Why do you care?

because i think its an interesting question. The trans issue as a whole is interesting because it's so filled with absurdity and contradiction.

AndrewJRenko · 06-12-2019 10:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you comply and refer to anorexic people as fat if they identified as overweight?

Does that happen much?

Brian? · 06-12-2019 11:04am

suicide_circus wrote: »

because i think its an interesting question. The trans issue as a whole is interesting because it's so filled with absurdity and contradiction.

I’d agree. The strangest one worth studying, imo, is the disparity in numbers between FTM and MTF trans people. It’s a gaping wide question that I can’t really see an answer to. Lately some people have filled that gap with arguments that they’re probably not all really trans.

I sometimes wonder if there’s validity to that. But it’s hard to look into without looking like you’re questioning all trans people.

Jessica Yaniv refused service at gynaecologist's office

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