Tenants made multiple changes to the property

pasquale83 · 07-10-2018 12:08am #1

Hi all,

I have tenants since a 4 months or so. They have been paying rent so far but they have made multiple changes to the property I didn't ask for and they didn't ask me permission for.

They have:
- landscapes the garden
- added a tap in the garden making a hole through the wall
- added a wooden stove in the sitting room
- changed the main door keys
- painted the walls
- changed the washing machine, fridge and electric oven

The guy is a builder, handy man, painter. They didn't ask for money yet. I've always made clear I'd like to be notified if they were going to make changes but they never did.

I'm getting a bit worried as it would be difficult to get the property back in the future. I've asked them to post me the new key. Honestly the house is in a shape better than before, but I'm also thinking they might request ownership because of all those changes.

I've an indefinite contract with them, registered to the RTB.

Not sure what to do. I don't I think it will be easy to evict them now.

Any advice ?

Thank you

Jack Moore · 07-10-2018 12:14am

pasquale83 wrote: »

Hi all,

I have tenants since a 4 months or so. They have been paying rent so far but they have made multiple changes to the property I didn't ask for and they didn't ask me permission for.

They have:
- landscapes the garden
- added a tap in the garden making a hole through the wall
- added a wooden stove in the sitting room
- changed the main door keys
- painted the walls
- changed the washing machine, fridge and electric oven

The guy is a builder, handy man, painter. They didn't ask for money yet. I've always made clear I'd like to be notified if they were going to make changes but they never did.

I'm getting a bit worried as it would be difficult to get the property back in the future. I've asked them to post me the new key. Honestly the house is in a shape better than before, but I'm also thinking they might request ownership because of all those changes.

I've an indefinite contract with them, registered to the RTB.

Not sure what to do. I don't I think it will be easy to evict them now.

Any advice ?

Thank you

All fixtures installed immediately become the property of the landlord

pasquale83 · 07-10-2018 12:18am

Jack Moore wrote: »

All fixtures installed immediately become the property of the landlord

Thanks for the reply. Am I entitled to get a copy of the house key at least?

I really don't understand their game. Why are they doing all of that?

Garibaldi? · 07-10-2018 12:23am

They should have asked permission.

pasquale83 · 07-10-2018 12:24am

Garibaldi? wrote: »

They should have asked permission.

Ya I know but they didn't. What can I do now?

jam_mac_jam · 07-10-2018 12:27am

Have you tried talking to them about it? They should have asked but if they are improving the place maybe they don't realise it's such a big problem. It's a bit of a jump suggestin that you won't get the property back.

Garibaldi? · 07-10-2018 12:28am

Check the rental agreement. The section where you listed all of the items on the property. You have the right to have those items re-instated.

pasquale83 · 07-10-2018 12:32am

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Have you tried talking to them about it? They should have asked but if they are improving the place maybe they don't realise it's such a big problem.

I did. I've asked in the past and also went home today and they showed me around and they are keeping it well but why don't they just tell me? Really don't understand if they don't realize it (they said they're happy I like it, they were worried I won't) or if they just don't care.

They said they are going to put it back the way it was if they have to leave the house, but they are not making changes easy to revert back to the original situation.

dennyk · 07-10-2018 12:35am

A tenant painting the walls is generally considered acceptable and permission to do so can't generally be denied without a good reason (e.g. you have special walls that would be damaged by painting or something). Landscaping also really shouldn't be an issue, unless they've torn out actual existing landscaping work and replaced it with their own; tenants will naturally want to arrange their gardens as they see fit, especially if they aren't done up at all in the first place. Changing the white goods could be getting iffy, but if they've safely stored the original units to be put back when they leave and they didn't cause any damage in the process then there's really no cause to object. (If they did cause damage or they've disposed of your original items, that's not really acceptable, though...)

Adding an outdoor tap (knocking a hole in the wall in the process) and adding a stove (if they also put in a chimney/flue or made other structural changes to accommodate it) without permission is going a bit beyond the bounds of acceptable behaviour, and changing the locks without permission is definitely unacceptable (what if you had to access the property due to an emergency situation?).

All that said, none of that could possibly give them any sort of claim of "ownership" of your property. Hell, even if they knocked down the walls and did a complete down-to-the-studs renovation, that wouldn't mean they own the place. Whether they'll be problem tenants who will overhold at the end of their tenancy is another matter, though; certainly putting in a lot of work around the place could make some people feel they've a right to stay longer and could make them ornery if the landlord decides to end the tenancy, and by doing these things without consulting you and getting permission, they've definitely demonstrated that they don't have much respect for proper boundaries in the tenant-landlord relationship, so that is certainly cause for concern.

As they've only been in there four months, they do not yet have Part 4 tenancy rights. Are they on a fixed term lease? If not, you can give them notice at any time before they've been there for six months for no reason at all; just be sure to do this quickly before they do hit that six-month mark. If they are under a fixed term lease, is there a clause in there that states the tenant cannot make changes to the property without the landlord's approval? Any proper lease should have a term to that effect. If so, then they have likely violated the terms of the lease and that should give you cause to terminate it. If there is no such clause, I'm afraid you might be a bit stuck, though; you can't end a fixed term lease early unless the tenant has violated it, and after six months they will acquire security of tenure for six years and cannot be removed even after the fixed term lease expires, except for an allowable reason (you require the property for yourself or an immediate family member, or you are selling it or performing extensive renovations that require vacant possession).

BoneIdol · 07-10-2018 12:40am

Sounds like they have upgraded the house off their own bat. You should consider a months free rent or a discount at least. Fair is fair.

pasquale83 · 07-10-2018 12:46am

dennyk wrote: »

A tenant painting the walls is generally considered acceptable and permission to do so can't generally be denied without a good reason (e.g. you have special walls that would be damaged by painting or something). Landscaping also really shouldn't be an issue, unless they've torn out actual existing landscaping work and replaced it with their own; tenants will naturally want to arrange their gardens as they see fit, especially if they aren't done up at all in the first place. Changing the white goods could be getting iffy, but if they've safely stored the original units to be put back when they leave and they didn't cause any damage in the process then there's really no cause to object. (If they did cause damage or they've disposed of your original items, that's not really acceptable, though...)

Adding an outdoor tap (knocking a hole in the wall in the process) and adding a stove (if they also put in a chimney/flue or made other structural changes to accommodate it) without permission is going a bit beyond the bounds of acceptable behaviour, and changing the locks without permission is definitely unacceptable (what if you had to access the property due to an emergency situation?).

All that said, none of that could possibly give them any sort of claim of "ownership" of your property. Hell, even if they knocked down the walls and did a complete down-to-the-studs renovation, that wouldn't mean they own the place. Whether they'll be problem tenants who will overhold at the end of their tenancy is another matter, though; certainly putting in a lot of work around the place could make some people feel they've a right to stay longer and could make them ornery if the landlord decides to end the tenancy, and by doing these things without consulting you and getting permission, they've definitely demonstrated that they don't have much respect for proper boundaries in the tenant-landlord relationship, so that is certainly cause for concern.

As they've only been in there four months, they do not yet have Part 4 tenancy rights. Are they on a fixed term lease? If not, you can give them notice at any time before they've been there for six months for no reason at all; just be sure to do this quickly before they do hit that six-month mark. If they are under a fixed term lease, is there a clause in there that states the tenant cannot make changes to the property without the landlord's approval? Any proper lease should have a term to that effect. If so, then they have likely violated the terms of the lease and that should give you cause to terminate it. If there is no such clause, I'm afraid you might be a bit stuck, though; you can't end a fixed term lease early unless the tenant has violated it, and after six months they will acquire security of tenure for six years and cannot be removed even after the fixed term lease expires, except for an allowable reason (you require the property for yourself or an immediate family member, or you are selling it or performing extensive renovations that require vacant possession).

Thank you for the extensive reply dennyk. So you recommend to give them notice to go ASAP?

Or maybe just getting the new house key would be enough, closing one eye for the rest they've done?

Thanks a million.

the_pen_turner · 07-10-2018 12:50am

i think i would politly remind them that they are breaking the lease and that you could serve them notice but you wont because they are keeping the place great. explain that you need to give written permission before any works are carried out
get a coppy of the key . and do regular check ups

dennyk · 07-10-2018 1:05am

pasquale83 wrote: »

Thank you for the extensive reply dennyk. So you recommend to give them notice to go ASAP?

That's really something you will have to judge; presumably you have spent some time with these folks and done your vetting work and gotten references, etc. on them, so you'll have a better idea of their nature and history than we do. The fact that they've done these things without permission might be a red flag that they're going to be headstrong and troublesome tenants, but it could also simply be a misunderstanding or a miscommunication (e.g. they're just trying to make their place nicer and they assumed you'd appreciate the upgrades, or their previous landlord allowed such things and they just failed to consider that not all landlords would feel the same way, or perhaps they mentioned fixing the place up a bit at some point during your discussions and took a lack of clear objection from you as tacit agreement). In the latter case, having a discussion with them and setting some firm and clear boundaries on what they can and can't do without obtaining permission from you (preferably in writing) might be all that's needed.

bertsmom · 07-10-2018 1:10am

I definitely would NOT be happy with this. Who is liable if the stove is fitted poorly and carbon monoxide harms or kills someone? Is your landlord insurance still valid with the introduction of the stove and any other changes etc.
At the least I would draw up a VERY comprehensive lease forbidding ANY further alterations in any way without prior written permission from yourself. If they have installed their own white goods where then are the ones that were in the house stored? A shed where they will rust and decay?
I am not a landlord I do own my own home now but before this I rented for years and would never dream of doing this.
Personally I think I would prefer to get them out of my property, they seem to have very blurred lines as regards the boundaries that need to be respected.
If you do let the tenancy continue (I wouldn't) demand a key IMMEDIATELY and do extremely regular inspections.

Hitman3000 · 07-10-2018 1:16am

With the exception of changing the locks it sounds all good. Remind them who owns the property in a friendly manner. I know it sounds counter intuitive but they may have for them a genuine reason for changing the locks. It does sound like you have good tenants.

zapper55 · 07-10-2018 1:23am

These are changes by someone who expects to be in the property for quite a while. They are costly and in some cases permanent.

I'd be alarmed without the fact that they changed the locks.

If it was my house I'd be consulting a solicitor to see how I can get them out asap before they have more legal rights.

Jack Moore · 07-10-2018 1:24am

pasquale83 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. Am I entitled to get a copy of the house key at least?

I really don't understand their game. Why are they doing all of that?

Yea

Jack Moore · 07-10-2018 1:25am

pasquale83 wrote: »

I did. I've asked in the past and also went home today and they showed me around and they are keeping it well but why don't they just tell me? Really don't understand if they don't realize it (they said they're happy I like it, they were worried I won't) or if they just don't care.

They said they are going to put it back the way it was if they have to leave the house, but they are not making changes easy to revert back to the original situation.

They are not entitled to change it back. Fixtures become part of the building and as I said ownership transfers

Iodine1 · 07-10-2018 1:37am

bertsmom wrote: »

I definitely would NOT be happy with this. Who is liable if the stove is fitted poorly and carbon monoxide harms or kills someone? Is your landlord insurance still valid with the introduction of the stove and any other changes etc.
At the least I would draw up a VERY comprehensive lease forbidding ANY further alterations in any way without prior written permission from yourself. If they have installed their own white goods where then are the ones that were in the house stored? A shed where they will rust and decay?
I am not a landlord I do own my own home now but before this I rented for years and would never dream of doing this.
Personally I think I would prefer to get them out of my property, they seem to have very blurred lines as regards the boundaries that need to be respected.
If you do let the tenancy continue (I wouldn't) demand a key IMMEDIATELY and do extremely regular inspections.

Agreed. Looks very like they are taking liberties with YOUR property. And when they leave they will take the white goods with them saying they bought them, and yours will be useless having been dumped in outside shed if they are even there at all. And any changes made whether they are improvements or not are not refundable. No one is entitled to incur expense on someone else's behalf.

troyzer · 07-10-2018 9:49am

Why is everyone most shocked at the locks?

I've done this at every place I've ever rented and immediately made a copy for the land lord. God knows who has a copy of the original from previous tenants.

To be honest, the next time I rent a place I'm going to ask that the landlord change the locks. It should be a basic part of preparing a house for a new tenant.

MSVforever · 07-10-2018 9:50am

Are these guys Irish?

Just asking as in other countries this would be allowed.
In Germany you basically rent the shell and can nearly do what you want with the place.
However after ending the tenancy they must change everything back as it was beforehand.

studdlymurphy · 07-10-2018 9:53am

the_pen_turner wrote:

i think i would politly remind them that they are breaking the lease and that you could serve them notice but you wont because they are keeping the place great. explain that you need to give written permission before any works are carried out get a coppy of the key . and do regular check ups

This is what i would do. Keep them on side anyway

Teyla Emmagan · 07-10-2018 9:54am

I would go and talk to them. They sound like potentially great tenants as long as they realise they have to run everything by you in future. To me it just sounds like they are nesting. But not giving you a new key is totally unacceptable and the only thing there that would raise any flags for me. Your man may simply be enjoying himself, people who love DIY will do DIY all day. Everything they have done so far sounds like an improvement to your property. However where did they put your white goods? Do they understand that the new stuff they bought is now yours?

Why don't you ring the RTB, get all your ducks in a row and then talk to them? I wouldn't assume any malice on their part as yet, they may not realise they are crossing a line.

GarIT · 07-10-2018 9:56am

troyzer wrote: »

Why is everyone most shocked at the locks?

I've done this at every place I've ever rented and immediately made a copy for the land lord. God knows who has a copy of the original from previous tenants.

To be honest, the next time I rent a place I'm going to ask that the landlord change the locks. It should be a basic part of preparing a house for a new tenant.

I agree that changing the locks should be standard. However changing the locks prevents the landlord from accessing their property which they have a right to do. Changing locks without the landlords permission is against most leases and is grounds for an eviction even in a part 4 tenancy according to the RTB.

If they had of just asked and didn't make it difficult for the landlord to get a key that probably wouldn't have been an issue.

07-10-2018 10:03am

I can't believe the amount of posters advising evicting these people.
That sound like perfect tenants. Yes ask for a key, obviously. But otherwise it seems like they are making a home for themselves, they are planning on staying quite a while I would imagine.
Why anyone would want to get rid of tenants who treat the house like their own home & make improvements is beyond me!

troyzer · 07-10-2018 10:06am

GarIT wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Why is everyone most shocked at the locks?

I've done this at every place I've ever rented and immediately made a copy for the land lord. God knows who has a copy of the original from previous tenants.

To be honest, the next time I rent a place I'm going to ask that the landlord change the locks. It should be a basic part of preparing a house for a new tenant.

I agree that changing the locks should be standard. However changing the locks prevents the landlord from accessing their property which they have a right to do. Changing locks without the landlords permission is against most leases and is grounds for an eviction even in a part 4 tenancy according to the RTB.

If they had of just asked and didn't make it difficult for the landlord to get a key that probably wouldn't have been an issue.

Why ask for permission? If they say no, I'd change the locks anyway. It's a basic requirement for security.

So to avoid souring a relationship, do it anyway and the first they hear of it there's a key in their hand. They really can't complain, especially if you upgrade the lock.

Agree though that to find out weeks after the fact and have to ask for the key is poor form.

jamesbondings · 07-10-2018 10:09am

pasquale83 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. Am I entitled to get a copy of the house key at least?

I really don't understand their game. Why are they doing all of that?

I do a small renovation whenever I move in somewhere. The last place I was in, I done the garden(plant removal and new beds) stripped all wallpaper, painted... Removed all carpets and put down laminated flooring throughout, cleared the chimney and put up shelving units..... All at my own time and expense. Why? Because if I have to spend 2 or more years in a property they I would like to ensure it is comfortable and not some bog standard rental that has barely had a lick of paint in 5 years.

Not everyone wants to live in an overpriced hovel. (I am not intimating your property was btw) Some of us just want somewhere nice and clean to relax with our family after a day's/weeks work. You appear to have tenants that care about the state of the place they live. They won't let it get into disrepair. Be thankful.

Of course take precautions legally and whatnot but it shouldn't be a cause for concern in my opinion

GarIT · 07-10-2018 10:14am

bubblypop wrote: »

I can't believe the amount of posters advising evicting these people.
That sound like perfect tenants. Yes ask for a key, obviously. But otherwise it seems like they are making a home for themselves, they are planning on staying quite a while I would imagine.
Why anyone would want to get rid of tenants who treat the house like their own home & make improvements is beyond me!

The only thing I'd worry about is that the extra pipe is done well so the OP doesn't have to be fixing leaks down the line and that they don't take the appliances they bought when they leave and put back OP's appliances which may be damaged from improper storage or been recycled already.

Savage_Henry · 07-10-2018 10:14am

Are they Irish? (They dont sound Irish)

GarIT · 07-10-2018 10:18am

troyzer wrote: »

Why ask for permission? If they say no, I'd change the locks anyway. It's a basic requirement for security.

So to avoid souring a relationship, do it anyway and the first they hear of it there's a key in their hand. They really can't complain, especially if you upgrade the lock.

Agree though that to find out weeks after the fact and have to ask for the key is poor form.

You ask for permission because it's not your property.

If that was done on me you'd be getting your 14 days notice and you'd be losing whatever from your deposit that it costs someone to put the old lock back or if the lock is gone for a new lock to be made to fit the old key and make sure the door hasn't been altered or damaged in any way fitting the new lock.

GarIT · 07-10-2018 10:20am

jamesbondings wrote: »

Removed all carpets and put down laminated flooring throughout

Same as the above post but you'd be out on your ear for wrecking the house with that trash and I'd be using the deposit to put carpet back in the rest all seems positive though.

Unless you were willing to add whatever it costs to get the house recarpeted when you leave to the deposit.

Tenants made multiple changes to the property

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