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New Defender - yah or nah?

2

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 390 ✭✭jochenstacker


    The Australians have a saying. If you want to go into the Outback, take a Landrover. If you want to come back, take a Landcruiser.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    What will be interesting is if the British Army test a variant or LR build a mil spec version, they have kept Landrover relevant for years. The wolf version of the defender was actually very reliable and had decent performance on and off road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,136 ✭✭✭Stallingrad


    It was always going to be a massive design hurdle, how do you re-invent a niche dinosaur and still make money?

    I think what they have delivered is what the market now demands, and while some may feel it is too close to other JLR products in time it may once again be seen as something special.

    I just wish that JLR would make their cars reliable. 20 years ago I worked in the middle east, and they would never venture into the dessert in a LR, it was always Nissan patrol or Landcruiser. It appears that nothing has changed which is a disgrace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,670 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    It was always going to be a massive design hurdle, how do you re-invent a niche dinosaur and still make money?

    I think what they have delivered is what the market now demands, and while some may feel it is too close to other JLR products in time it may once again be seen as something special.

    I just wish that JLR would make their cars reliable. 20 years ago I worked in the middle east, and they would never venture into the dessert in a LR, it was always Nissan patrol or Landcruiser. It appears that nothing has changed which is a disgrace.

    They still make the original Patrol especially for the Middle East (not cheap comparitively). The new Patrol is bloated and used for delivering kids to school and queuing at the McDonalds drive through. When Toyota announced they were discontinuing the FJ, they bought up an additional year of production just for the Gulf region. The FJ is the most capable and suitable car for the desert. Lots of people have Jeeps of all models, they are great fun, very capable & you can make them your own. If you have loads of money, you can own a landcruiser for offroading, imense 4x4's & luxurious, but expensive. Litterally no one drives any Land Rover or Range Rover in the desert... it is a silly idea and it's not what they are best at. They are designed for the higway and getting out of at the hotel valet.

    Pickups are also hugely popular in the Middle East... F150's, Hilux, Rams, Rangers, Old Style Patrols...

    It's often commented on that when you watch the news, you will always see militants and armys in pickups with a big read 'Toyota' across the tail gate... theres a reason for that, they are incredibly capable.

    The Old Defender is still popular for expedition and overlanding... because the parts are easily available across the Middle East, Africa & the rest of the world, but the only reason they would be taken into extreme offroad conditions would be for nostalgia... They are capable but others are just more capable.

    The new defender is unlikely to fit the criteria of a modern army, unless just used for ferrying passengers on road.
    • Some of the critera for traditional offroaders:
    • Ladder Chassis or similar. Easy to weld, fix, change
    • Flat body panels as much as possible. Easy to fix, weld, change
    • Simple bumper with end caps. Change for different style where necessary, broken ends can be taken off, or replaced. Winches etc.
    • Round headlights. Can be changed anywhere, by anyone, anywhere in the world (universal part). The ones I put on my Jeep JK were from Harley Davidson
    • Small wheels, big tyres. Surface area is king. Note the new Dender has 20" wheels and low profile tyres... Not made to go off the N11
    • Simple Access... I did allot of mods to my FJ & JK myself... wiring was relitively easy, as was access under floors etc. How would you wire a set of rooftop lights on the new defender & how would you fix additional buttons and switches to the dash?
    • On body towing points. These should be chassis mounted, or you'll rip your bumper off. This is not for towing, but for removing a vehicle from deep mud or sand... this is done under massive force and resistance using kenetic ropes that produce massive energy... threaded tow points are not adviseable, nore are bumer mounted points, or you're liable to lose a bumper.
    The new defender is a lifestyle choice, not an offroad vehicle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,136 ✭✭✭Stallingrad


    For those with reliability concerns LR sell a "Get You Home' pack. You simply attach the winch to something solid before setting off into the wild.

    [URL="https:///"]97a696ada9953788164bb10ec3bb136c-full.jpg[/URL]


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  • Registered Users Posts: 80,798 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn


    An interesting alternative still available on the South African market for circa £50k, 70 Series Toyota Land Cruiser.
    Prices start at the equivalent of just under £50,000. Take into account the fact this thing may well outlive you, your kids and their kids, and that doesn’t sound so bad.

    0101020201.namib_.exterior.1.jpg?itok=ZvzuDPkX


    https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suvs/toyota-land-cruiser-namib-tremendous

    Also on the horizon this...
    https://www.topgear.com/car-news/suvs/ineos-grenadier-will-be-no-nonsense-british-4x4


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭TrailerBob


    They've been selling the 70 series in various body styles, 7 seater, pick up, traybed, troop carrier etc in S.A and AUS for years.. the V8 diesel in them doesn't meet Euro emissions regs, so they can't sell them here new. You can of course personally import one second hand...

    With the defender going the route it has, the 70 series is the last proper ladder frame multi-purpose truck out there. Of course, not many people here need that level of over engineering either


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,200 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    I think the new Defender is everything the old defender was not. Anyone who knows the old Defender won't buy a new one. Why? Because they probably still own one of the old defenders! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Because they probably still own one of the old defenders! :)

    I know an old fella near me who has one of the last defenders off the production line in storage with less than 1000k’s on the clock. He is waiting for his current defender to die.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Jude13


    Bluefoam wrote: »
    They still make the original Patrol especially for the Middle East (not cheap comparitively). The new Patrol is bloated and used for delivering kids to school and queuing at the McDonalds drive through. When Toyota announced they were discontinuing the FJ, they bought up an additional year of production just for the Gulf region. The FJ is the most capable and suitable car for the desert.

    I would query that, many firms/divisions have bought the new patrol (with a few mods, basically front and back bumpers, not to mention the armored version) solely for desert use after rigorous testing versus the LC. one saffa private security said they bring at least one new patrol to help out the LC's. Would have to disagree with the FJ being most capable on the said also. I will ask the BAE guys when I am back in KSA what they think of the new Patrol as they received a batch of them instead of the LC's.

    I did the empty quarter in a LR many moons ago at it was cappable but nothing on the toyota's / nissans. The LR defender would be for getting stuck in electric picnic


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 390 ✭✭jochenstacker



    That is a thing of beauty. I don't like new cars, flimsy crap with complicated mechanics that will all be broken well before 200k km* with crappy plastic exterior that will look good for about 3 years before any kind of shunt will bend it out of shape and it will never sit right again.
    Gimme something like that that can still be repaired with a hammer, a screwdriver and a few spanners.
    But how long before any kind of ICE vehicle is Verboten everywhere? We will be forced by law to buy that new shit and we won't have a choice as cars cost minimum €20k and they turn into scrap on the dot at 5 yeras old, because nobody will insure it anymore and they won't be allowed to be driven anywhere.
    I guess leasing a car and sharing it between different parties, or maybe they will all be self driving and you just call one via app to take you where you want to go? Won't be a pretty future. Cars will be anonymous econo boxes that can be thrown on the garbage as soon as the first part lunches itself on the dot of 100k km like it was designed to do.


    *
    And I'm absolutely convinced with a few fatal flaws designed into it on purpose.
    Those cars get ever more complicated and manufacturers have to save every penny. And they do so at the expense of the buyer. So it's ok to save a few cents on things like the fuel injection system, timing chain, clutch and a few other vital parts that will crap themselves at 5 years and basically write off the car, because all you can do is put in the same crap again and keep driving a ticking time bomb.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Lofidelity wrote: »
    Does this mean the Wrangler has the hardcore off road market to itself?
    Theres a new shape one driving around Dublin 2 and its really growing on me. Matte grey and wide wheels.

    If the claims being made for it are correct then this Defender can still do "hardcore off road".

    That's a big IF though as the claims been made for the new Defender are pretty big.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    We can also be absolutely certain that people are going to directly compare the new Defender with the old off road .

    Suspect the UK Land Rover magazines will do exactly that as soon as they can get their hands on a production model for long enough .

    So frankly it would be ludicrous for Land Rover to make claims that will be very quickly tested.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    The new defender might be able to compete with the old one or with other robust offroaders. But will it do it reliably for 10-20 years of hard driving, towing, mud, neglected servicing and occasional gunfire hits?? Not a chance! It's nothing more than a plastic Dalkey tractor. Coming to a school gate near you soon.

    The real test of what is a capable off road utility vehicle is what the ESB have and what you see outside the mart on mart day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Capra


    Old diesel wrote: »
    We can also be absolutely certain that people are going to directly compare the new Defender with the old off road .

    Suspect the UK Land Rover magazines will do exactly that as soon as they can get their hands on a production model for long enough .

    So frankly it would be ludicrous for Land Rover to make claims that will be very quickly tested.

    I've never seen a magazine test an off road vehicle robustly. They take them out on a few manicured challenge loops that any skilled driver will make it over in most vehicles. Proper extreme off roading is rarely tested. The thing with the old defender is that it was easily modified and cheap to repair. This won't be either of those things. A Jeep Wrangler in 2019 is still a Jeep Wrangler despite a total overhaul. This is nothing like an original Defender in looks or concept.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    That's exactly what they do. What looks like an off road challenge is just a carefully engineered course that has the bumps and dips at just the right pitch so the Jeep can get over them and look really impressive..

    The real comparative test is to give a Hilux and a new defender to a hill farmer in deepest darkest Mayo in winter.

    That'll sort the wheat from the chaff.




  • My feeling is that’s it’s going to prove a lot of posters here wrong. I’m surprised at the negativity towards it, it’s much more positive elsewhere.

    It retains its 3.5 tonne towing captivity also, while it might be used by some in cities etc this is a machine built for work too. I don’t see the issue with trying to cater for both markets, a landcruiser does it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    The new defender might be able to compete with the old one or with other robust offroaders. But will it do it reliably for 10-20 years of hard driving, towing, mud, neglected servicing and occasional gunfire hits?? Not a chance! It's nothing more than a plastic Dalkey tractor. Coming to a school gate near you soon.

    The real test of what is a capable off road utility vehicle is what the ESB have and what you see outside the mart on mart day.

    Jeep are pretty poor using that criteria as well though.

    Of course the new Defender could well have poor reliability and durability

    But this will only become apparent one way or the other with time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Time will tell indeed.

    I can't really envisage many of these turning up at marts, as site vehicles on motorway construction jobs.

    Or as improvised fighting vehicles in places like Yemen or Somalia.

    I speculate that like most land rover products, it'll be all pants and no trousers. Big talk of ruggedness and capability but will fail miserable when it comes to real world use, mostly because of land rovers notoriously shoddy reliability. Too many finicky gadgets and "features" that simply won't stand up to the abuse and hard work that say, an Isuzu dmax or Hilux could handle for years.

    It's designed and built for soccer moms.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Body coloured bumpers and low profile tyres? And they are calling it a rugged workhorse built for off road?

    I can't take that seriously.

    I can't see the ESB or any utility that needs off road vehicles that are as reliable as they are robust buying this softie.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,670 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Jeep are pretty poor using that criteria as well though.

    Of course the new Defender could well have poor reliability and durability

    But this will only become apparent one way or the other with time.

    But the jeep retains many successful elements of the design over the years... the chassis type, solid axels, simple panels, removeable and changeable parts, modular bumpers, swapable suspension...

    The Defender has a tub chassis derived from the Range Rover, independent air suspension, fancy integrated bumpers and lights... it isn't derived from 4x4 heritage, it is a beefed up version of their other cars.

    I'm not trying to be agruementative of dismissive... but it's not designed as an offroad vehicle... It is however marketed as one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Bluefoam wrote: »
    Old diesel wrote: »
    Jeep are pretty poor using that criteria as well though.

    Of course the new Defender could well have poor reliability and durability

    But this will only become apparent one way or the other with time.

    But the jeep retains many successful elements of the design over the years... the chassis type, solid axels, simple panels, removeable and changeable parts, modular bumpers, swapable suspension...

    The Defender has a tub chassis derived from the Range Rover, independent air suspension, fancy integrated bumpers and lights... it isn't derived from 4x4 heritage, it is a beefed up version of their other cars.

    I'm not trying to be agruementative of dismissive... but it's not designed as an offroad vehicle... It is however marketed as one.

    Land Rover will argue that it is designed to be an off roader.

    Much talk of how they've beefed it up Vs their other cars .

    It's too early yet to say they are wrong .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Exactly.

    When anyone who knows anything about vehicles and wants a reliable no fluff robust machine hears the words air suspension, they will just roll their eyes and move on.

    That is literally just buying an expensive problem maker which will be guaranteed to cause give huge trouble.

    A rugged robust vehicle should have a sprung suspension because there's less to go wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Exactly.

    When anyone who knows anything about vehicles and wants a reliable no fluff robust machine hears the words air suspension, they will just roll their eyes and move on.

    That is literally just buying an expensive problem maker which will be guaranteed to cause give huge trouble.

    A rugged robust vehicle should have a sprung suspension because there's less to go wrong.

    Entry level 90 is on coils I believe


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,475 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    I think it's looks great, love the idea that it can perform off road and turn itself in to a comfy, fast motorway muncher. I like all the gismos and gadgets, particularly the long awaited central seat! But I reckon the serious off-roaders are right.

    If something goes wrong with the old model in the Ozzy outback, Sahara or Steppes it's easily fixed by a decent hobbyist mechanic. If something goes wrong with the new one I reckon you'll need an electronic engineer, a programmer, a mechanic and a Land Rover specialist with very recent training!

    Your first scratch on the older model would be a war wound, the first scratch on the new one would be just upsetting!!

    Saying that, I'd have one in a flash for my little adventures around Ireland's top beach breaks and wind spots!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    And even at that you'll be going well too avoid breaking down.

    Land Rover are notoriously unreliable. And then crucifyingly expensive to get repaired.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    I expect it to be a bit of a failure as a real functional vehicle over the long term.

    But my point was and is - we don't know yet it's real world ability - so it's too early to say that it wont be "a real off roader".

    That platform is having some massive claims put against and while there may be spin doctoring going on - it's been sold as a massively beefed up version of the whole Range Rover platform that had to meet stiffer standards with the engineers .

    Part of the reason allegedly for no ladder chassis is that it's harder to hit crash test targets .

    Granted this may be spin doctoring .

    I will wait for real world outcomes to finally say it's good or crap etc.

    Should add that in 2006 I was delighted to see the D40 Navara come out because pick ups weren't a Renault thing so figured that it would be a Nissan design.

    Not just a Renault in a Nissan frock.

    That yoke was a total disaster though - so I get the idea of assume the worst


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,369 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    How was the Nissan Navara a Renault in a frock?? Renault didn’t even make an SUV at that time, Nissan had all the expertise. Their spin doctors seem intent on blaming all their quality woos on Renault rather than focusing on the actual problem which was their own penny pinching and crap designs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    Old diesel wrote: »

    Part of the reason allegedly for no ladder chassis is that it's harder to hit crash test targets .

    Granted this may be spin doctoring .

    Research shows that ladder-chassis SUVs are more dangerous for the occupants (and also the occupants of the other vehicle) in the event of a crash.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 35,348 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    If there is no pickup version then it's a huge fail. The whole point of them was to take cargo, few bales, an animal, can's of oils, firewood, what ever.


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