Commercial partnership with up and coming carpenter

BenvanNiekerk · 05-01-2021 11:17am #1

Hi everybody.

We are a startup business inviting expression of interest for a commercial partnership with an up and coming carpenter to manufacture a small range of simple yet bespoke furniture using a variety of sustainable local woods. One specific requirement is that this person or company needs to be able to steam bend and shape some of the furniture to exacting standards.

The person/company preferably needs to be based in Leinster to reduce lead times, however, we are keen to meet anyone countrywide that would be able to assist us and start a longstanding profitable partnership. Reliability is key.

The owner has a strong business management background and we strongly believe that partnerships with suppliers should be mutually beneficial, and we believe in cash on delivery to build trust and strengthen the commercial partnership. (Perhaps I need to amend this to ensure people don't misconstrue the intention - I will pay the required deposit upfront, and then pay the outstanding amount before taking delivery. I am a fierce supporter of ethical business, and will not ask anyone to put themselves or their business at risk because of my order.)

We'd use the first half of 2021 to plan, create, and test prototypes, and roll out the products from June 2021 onwards.

Should you be interested to discuss this further, please feel free to email me at dot com so that we can exchange details, arrange a virtual meeting, and review your portfolio to discuss the venture.

Thanks in advance,

Ben

kadman · 05-01-2021 12:48pm

Please be advised that this is not a forum for commercial advertising. It is a forum for discussion of
woodcraft related topics.

Should you require , direction, suggestions, or design criteria in general on any prototypes, please
post your specific questions.

If you require staff then this is not the place to seek them, thankyou.
kadman.

Calahonda52 · 05-01-2021 1:45pm

Now that the pitch has been marked, I would just say that, as someone who has been looking at proposals for many years: the tone does not auger well for a partnership: unlimited risk shared.. no thanks

BenvanNiekerk · 05-01-2021 3:55pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Now that the pitch has been marked, I would just say that, as someone who has been looking at proposals for many years: the tone does not auger well for a partnership: unlimited risk shared.. no thanks

Thanks for the response Calahonda52.

I am not sure how paying for everything before taking delivery is a shared risk? Am I missing something? Perhaps I need to make the intention in the original post clear - I edited it accordingly.

I am discussing this with Kadman via PM, and he has been super helpful. I shall amend my original post after having heard back from him.

kadman · 05-01-2021 8:22pm

When this was first posted by the OP, my thoughts were exactly in line with Calahonda52 and then some.
Most of which I have made known to the OP.

Should you consider such an option you need to approach this with eyes wide, wide open.
I speak from many years experience of designing, making such protoype items. Some of which I have been burnt on
in materials, time, and assurances not lived up to by the client.

My first reaction was I dont want to see anyone thinking this is a golden opportunity, and then get fleeced or let down by
entering into an arrangement to make prototypes, and then for some reason not being able to deliver on their commitment,
or missing something in the original brief that leaves them unable to receive payment. And frankly boards is not here to become a legal pincushion.

On the otherhand I dont want to stop any potential business from developing, nor any potential budding craftsman from
moving onward and upward.

So for now I am leaving this thread open for discussion on the woodwork elements of the prototypes needed,
as in design brief at the outset, material requirements ect

I will be watching this closely.

Feel free to discuss the developing woodwork.

kadman · 06-01-2021 10:57am

Maybe the OP would like to post some pics of the design items he would like prototyped.

And maybe clarify whether these designs are steam bent or laminated, as there is a clear difference.

Having had the opportunity to see 1 design in particular, I suspect it is laminated materials as opposed to steam bent.

Different method, different skilset, although similar.

kadman · 06-01-2021 12:43pm

Just in case some woodworkers, novices or otherwise are tempted to rush into making prototypes.
Here is a video of the prepwork and tools required to make a simple shaped form.

Prototypes consume time and materials at a wasteful rate, so be prepared. This is a laminating exercise
as opposed to a steam bent exercise.

kadman · 06-01-2021 9:53pm

If OP needs to post images, then you can send them to me and I will
upload them for you until your post count allows you to post your own images,

K.

kadman · 07-01-2021 1:39pm

Just to keep you up to date on PM discussions with the OP
There has been no more since 15.11 pm 05/01/21 post no. 4.

Hopefully there will be.

Anyway for the benefit of novices that may consider jumping at this.

Things to consider.
Step 1.

There has been mention of a research and development funds available. Which should mean funds for prototype development.
THis should mean money upfront on provision of your design brief for , costs associated to the design which include,
cad work, mockup design materials, and time elements paid per hour during this initial phase.

In writing and signed by both parties

If you cannot get this...you need to ask why. If you can't get proper professional commitment at this stage,
will you ever. Trust needs to be built up over a period, this is a starting point.

Discuss?

quietsailor · 07-01-2021 10:34pm

kadman wrote: »

Just to keep you up to date on PM discussions with the OP
There has been no more since 15.11 pm 05/01/21 post no. 4.

Hopefully there will be.

Anyway for the benefit of novices that may consider jumping at this.

Things to consider.
Step 1.

There has been mention of a research and development funds available. Which should mean funds for prototype development.
THis should mean money upfront on provision of your design brief for , costs associated to the design which include,
cad work, mockup design materials, and time elements paid per hour during this initial phase.

In writing and signed by both parties

If you cannot get this...you need to ask why. If you can't get proper professional commitment at this stage,
will you ever. Trust needs to be built up over a period, this is a starting point.

Discuss?

Not necessarily from a wood working point of view but from trades friends who have entered broadly similar arrangements.

1. Everything written down and both parties stick to this EVEN if YOU make a mistake and it costs you. You can't expect to change the agreement in your favour and then expect that the other party won't
2. Build in re-negotation clauses. You both might plan everything perfectly the first time but that would be rare.
3. Calculate your material costs and work out a deposit to cover them. Can you carry out this work ouside of your day job (I have a friend who works shift and welds stainless pipes on his days off - the welding is extra money and he can afford to not get paid on it for labour if things go bad but he always gets materials/material costs upfront)
4. Calculate your labour*. Here you will have to work out what time is associated with research and experimentation and what time is associated with actually carrying out the work.
5. Keep patterns and jigs. LABEL THEM. if you are updating the jigs label them - jig 1, rev 1. Jig 1 rev 2 etc.

* keep a notebook and write everything down, no matter how stupid it seems. It will allow you to plan the next iteration of the design a lot better. You can also write down what was work, reserch or just standing thinking and come up with a correct figure (aftter you get comfortable with the job) to base a proper labour cost on.

kadman · 07-01-2021 11:20pm

quietsailor wrote: »

Not necessarily from a wood working point of view but from trades friends who have entered broadly similar arrangements.

1. Everything written down and both parties stick to this EVEN if YOU make a mistake and it costs you. You can't expect to change the agreement in your favour and then expect that the other party won't
2. Build in re-negotation clauses. You both might plan everything perfectly the first time but that would be rare.
3. Calculate your material costs and work out a deposit to cover them. Can you carry out this work ouside of your day job (I have a friend who works shift and welds stainless pipes on his days off - the welding is extra money and he can afford to not get paid on it for labour if things go bad but he always gets materials/material costs upfront)
4. Calculate your labour*. Here you will have to work out what time is associated with research and experimentation and what time is associated with actually carrying out the work.
5. Keep patterns and jigs. LABEL THEM. if you are updating the jigs label them - jig 1, rev 1. Jig 1 rev 2 etc.

* keep a notebook and write everything down, no matter how stupid it seems. It will allow you to plan the next iteration of the design a lot better. You can also write down what was work, reserch or just standing thinking and come up with a correct figure (aftter you get comfortable with the job) to base a proper labour cost on.

I am in total agreement. Good post.:)

As you correctly point out , the medium i.e. is immaterial at this stage, whether it be timber, steel, plastics, fabric, glass,tech, ect,ect,
Proper arrangements at an early stage, minimise headaches for both parties.

And write it down folks:), so that you know what you are both agreeing to.

[Deleted User] · 08-01-2021 2:12am

The ‘radio silence’ here is all one should need to determine exactly how much business experience, professionalism and partnership one could expect to rely upon in the event of difficulty in realising the mutual benefit to which the OP refers.

It smacks of someone with limited business experience looking to take advantage of an enthusiastic source of skilled craft labour, dressing it up as some form of partnership, while essentially asking them to apply for the privilege of doing the work required to realise their designs or perhaps little more than an outline idea.

Before wasting any time, I’d expect to have the opportunity to critically assess the OP’s prior business experience before taking this too seriously. Too many people think an idea and having some prior ‘business’ experience equips or qualifies them to launch a start up. In many cases, it’s not a true entrepreneur who does so, rather someone who can’t find employment seeking to benefit from the sweat of others. Do not work with those people.

Simple and bespoke products made using sustainable local woods, yet requiring a third party to create a prototype, with terms largely favouring the OP while they test their idea? I’d want to take a good long look at their business plan and would insist on equity if it were to have any ‘legs’ before I’d draw a line or turn on a single machine. Without that, there is no partnership, just waffle. Be 100% clear about that, everyone. No equity, no partnership.

The only other way I’d consider it would be with block drawdown hours plus all estimated material costs + contingency, paid in advance for all design/prototyping/revisions to be a minimum requirement to commence. No cheques. No deposits. Payment up front, then do the body of work under contract, on an agreed time and materials basis.

Let’s face it: If they can’t do those things, they can’t afford their startup and you’d be a fool to finance it for them in any way, just because you’d like to be an ‘up and coming carpenter’.

kadman · 08-01-2021 9:15am

Another excellent post about the possible pitfalls awaiting the young entrepreneur.

These posts are exactly what is wanted to make sure someone that considers this is not caught
like a rabbit in the headlamps. I think we have all seen this many times before throughout our careers,
the fervour of youth in the workplace, turned into an opportunity by unscrupulous employers, to mold them
into workhorses.

I do hope the op comes back to continue the discussion on his proposal, but as you say the silence so far is deafening.
I could say more here, but at the moment I am going to keep my powder dry.

K.

kadman · 08-01-2021 12:47pm

In case you are wondering if there has been further discussion by the OP and myself.
There hasn't which is his prerogative which we should respect.

I would have liked to flesh this out further in every respect as it would have been a helpful
exercise for the novice if he came across a similar scenario.

So for the moment as the saying goes, " we will have to let the hare sit":)

Notice I never used the saying "...te or get off the pot", as this is a family friendly forum:P:P

Calahonda52 · 08-01-2021 6:30pm

Sorry guys for not coming back to this thread, i have been a little distracted by the medical ramifications of a second elevated PSA blood test received on Wednesday last.

I will review the thread later, but thank you for your contributions thus far, i do appreciate it.:)

BenvanNiekerk · 10-01-2021 10:55pm

Hi everyone.

I have been quite disheartened at the very cold and cynical welcome I received here, so I am sure you understand that I am perhaps not too eager to check back too regularly. I do however hope this changes in the future. I was very busy working extremely long hard hours over the last few days, so I did not really have time to read through the replies, but thankfully I could find some time tonight.

Kadman, thank you very much for the video, it was a wonderful watch and I have since watched many others and learned a great deal. Thankfully only one or two of the final products will require laminating or bending. It is quite a process, I agree. Further to another post, you made, a legally binding agreement and NDA covering both parties is essential and should be in place before any promises are made.

Quitesailor, thank you for the very informative post. It was refreshing to read, and you make some very good points.

JayZeus, your post was not very nice. The only point I care to respond to is that I agree that equity is key and that if people want to work together they need to do their homework, and ensure their ducks are in a row. I hope that you could try to be more constructive in the future.

Calahonda52, I am sorry to hear about your condition, I did read your posts, although a recent update still eludes me, and I am not sure what has happened since? I wish you the best of luck and hope you feel better soon.

To close off - two points:
First, my business background, since it has been mentioned by more than one of you - I have almost 20 years of management experience, most at mid-to-senior level. I have several degrees and diplomas, almost all relating to business, management, and quality assurance. I am currently studying my MBA at a very reputable institution, perhaps another reason why I might be more preoccupied with other, rather pressing matters, and why I have been quiet over the last few days. My last departmental budget was 20 million euros with 70 staff, so I hope to show that I have some idea of what business entails, and hope that this puts some of your minds at ease.

Secondly, I shall continue to be respectful and open about my intentions on here, as I have been from the very start. I have absolutely nothing to hide, and I am proud of what I intend to start. I would appreciate a bit of help from you all - I am sure it is quite clear I am not from Ireland, and sadly I can't ask my best friend for advice over a pint of Guinness of where I can find certain items or craftsmen - I don't know many people in Ireland at all, otherwise I might have been able to not post these questions on such a public forum, but alas, I was left with no choice and that is why I am here.

I look forward to engaging with you all in a positive manner in future posts.

Ben

[Deleted User] · 11-01-2021 12:05am

BenvanNiekerk wrote: »

JayZeus, your post was not very nice. The only point I care to respond to is that I agree that equity is key and that if people want to work together they need to do their homework, and ensure their ducks are in a row. I hope that you could try to be more constructive in the future.

Ben, with all due respect, nice is all but irrelevant if the fundamentals of a sound business relationship are absent. I'm a patient, helpful and courteous fellow, but I abhor those who look to take advantage of others enthusiasm, especially when it's ultimately for their own financial gain. Whether or not it's intentional, makes no difference. You came here dressing a risky investment of time and expertise on the part of the skilled producer as a form of partnership, while demonstrating a basic lack of technical understanding of the product you apparently want to bring to market.

If you had relevant experience, some sort of brand value and a product design at a reasonably advanced stage, you wouldn't be taking such a simplistic approach and that's what initially drew my ire. It would be far too easy for a commercially inexperienced woodworker to end up out of pocket chasing after your vision. Again, real world experience would have enabled you to approach this in an appropriate manner, clearly setting out your requirements and the terms of engagement which would apply in a tenable format.

In a nutshell, you need to put your money where your mouth is in full, commissioning prototypes and paying for them in full. Interpreting your design, acknowledging the absence of technical expertise on your part, brings risk and it's entirely unreasonable that a producer should have to run the risk of rejection at time of delivery simply because you cannot clearly set out a specification and place your order from the outset. This comes from inexperience and suggests that unreasonable expectations are very likely to lead to a fruitless engagement in the making, for both parties. That's fine when it's your idea, but a real waste of time and risks losses for the producer in chasing down your idea.

So Ben, I'm sorry if that doesn't seem nice, but that's the reality as I would see it. Considering the business experience you say you have, I'd have expected you might be a little less sensitive to direct criticism when someone challenges your proposal.

BenvanNiekerk wrote: »

To close off - two points:
First, my business background, since it has been mentioned by more than one of you - I have almost 20 years of management experience, most at mid-to-senior level. I have several degrees and diplomas, almost all relating to business, management, and quality assurance. I am currently studying my MBA at a very reputable institution, perhaps another reason why I might be more preoccupied with other, rather pressing matters, and why I have been quiet over the last few days. My last departmental budget was 20 million euros with 70 staff, so I hope to show that I have some idea of what business entails, and hope that this puts some of your minds at ease.

Writing with my own 25 years of experience in R&D, Sales, Manufacturing and Senior Management, and as an MBA graduate from a highly regarded university, I know as well as many others here (with or without such experience) that none of this brings notable value if it's not relevant experience within an industry or market with some relevance to your new venture.

I've met a few highly educated, mid to senior level managers with a few years of experience under their belts who can perform very well in an SMB or large enterprise in a departmental role, but who couldn't deal with the most basic of practical challenges in getting a business up and running when it's all on their desk. Have you successfully established a business before? If so, that's relevant, but I would have thought such experience would have been mentioned first and foremost. I'll assume therefore that you haven't.

BenvanNiekerk wrote: »

Secondly, I shall continue to be respectful and open about my intentions on here, as I have been from the very start. I have absolutely nothing to hide, and I am proud of what I intend to start. I would appreciate a bit of help from you all - I am sure it is quite clear I am not from Ireland, and sadly I can't ask my best friend for advice over a pint of Guinness of where I can find certain items or craftsmen - I don't know many people in Ireland at all, otherwise I might have been able to not post these questions on such a public forum, but alas, I was left with no choice and that is why I am here.

I look forward to engaging with you all in a positive manner in future posts.

Ben

I think there's no real fear that your intentions are to hide things, or be anything less than respectful. I consider my own intentions in replying to be so. I'm a hobby woodworker, with no interest in pursuing commercial work, so I don't have a horse running in this race. What I contribute is intended for both your benefit and for that of someone who could be tempted to respond to your request from this community. So while you might not like the attention or perspective it brings, it's nothing other than a good faith response, something you should be prepared to acknowledge rather than dismiss off hand.

Let's face it: You begin by saying my reply wasn't nice, but Ben, that's really just reinforcing my own suspicions that you're likely to waste someone elses time if they decide to spend it on your idea. You're deflecting from legitimate questioning, expressions of concern, skepticism of your proposal and the terms you'd like to apply to this 'partnership'. Your original post is full of 'we', 'the owner' and 'I' - Which is it? All of this smacks of disingenuous nonsense, pretence and chest puffing. If it's just you, say so.

If you wrote the following, you'd have been met with an entirely different type of response, assuming it would have been permitted here in the first place.

"Hello Boards woodcrafters. I have a basic design for some furniture which I think could make a commercially viable range for direct, retail or wholesale supply. I don't know anything about making furniture, but I have some outline ideas and would like to discuss these with someone who knows about such things. I'm happy to pay up front for design consultation and if appropriate, for prototypes, but I don't know where to begin. Can anyone suggest someone I might contact for advice? I'm located in XXXX. Ben".

Take it or leave it, but you asked the questions and while the answers might not be what you wanted, an experienced business professional with a €20M annual budget and 70 staff should be able to get past their own discomfort and accept that constructively critical feedback isn't always 'nice'. If I were in your shoes, I'd be grateful to have the considered input of others, in particular those who can see through the nonsense and can spot that there's risk and inexperience aplenty on the other side of the table.

kadman · 11-01-2021 11:09am

Thats what I am talking about.

A very frank exchange of views and opinions on the original question.Once we leave the egos at the front door,
then we can progress to serious discussion on the relevant points that require fleshing out.

Now that we are on track,
Keep them coming.

kadman · 13-01-2021 8:33pm

Just to move this along,

Over the last few days I have been contacted by one or two potentially interested parties in this venture,
for my advice and guidance and potential input in their endeavours, and i have told them that
any discussion advice or otherwise that I have on this thread, I will be posting on this thread.

I am not going to be getting knee deep in pm'ing on this.

Any view, opinion , on the offer of a potential partnership by the op, I will offer here, for the benefit
of all interested parties. It appears potential candidates have made contact, so I hope due diligence is done .

Remember guys, prototype cost is totally different to final design manufacture.

BenvanNiekerk · 14-01-2021 8:44pm

kadman wrote: »

Just to move this along,

Over the last few days I have been contacted by one or two potentially interested parties in this venture,
for my advice and guidance and potential input in their endeavours, and i have told them that
any discussion advice or otherwise that I have on this thread, I will be posting on this thread.

I am not going to be getting knee deep in pm'ing on this.

Any view, opinion , on the offer of a potential partnership by the op, I will offer here, for the benefit
of all interested parties. It appears potential candidates have made contact, so I hope due diligence is done .

Remember guys, prototype cost is totally different to final design manufacture.

Thank you for facilitating the discussion Kadman. I look forward to sharing how this unfolds.

kadman · 15-01-2021 12:15am

Thanks Ben.

Thats what this forum is all about, different points of view from many posters, on many topics.
You only have to check back through the 1000's of posts to assure your self that there is a wealth of
information from both experts and novices too here. And I would prefer to see views exchanged here for all to see.

Ben, maybe you would like to post some pics of the type of bespoke items that you would like to manufacture.
No doubt your R/D guys have worked on some design brief with you and you are welcome to throw it out here for some
input from many woodworkers who have the skilset to deliver your prototype, or advise the best methods to do so.
Or are you keeping this part of your brief strictly between you and your contactees.

[Deleted User] · 15-01-2021 10:24pm

I would like to add one additional comment, specifically for those considering the OP's proposal. Sign an NDA only covering very specific conditions which pertain to this particular engagement. Do not sign a boilerplate two party NDA, as it will be too restrictive. If you aspire to produce for other clients, the NDA should limit the disclosure only of unique design elements contained in the OP's outline, in the event that he has indeed conceived of a product for which there are no comparable designs. It should not contain any ridiculous penalties for disclosure, or survive termination of the commercial term by more than 12 months. If the OP won't work with you without this, take it as a clear indication of what may be anticipated should the outcome be less than satisfactory. Forewarned is forearmed.

Essentially, any contracts you sign should not prevent you from discussing how your expertise has been used to realise a design outline as a piece of furniture. You are, after all, the one in possession of the practical skills, equipment and understanding necessary to realise a prototype of a product from a concept drawing. If you bring this expertise to the OP's project, it should be clearly understood and stated that this is not something which will be made available exclusively to the OP during the term of the contract, or for any period beyond that.

The reality is, most of these agreements can be undermined in the courts or through arbitration if you provide for it, but it will frustrate you financially in doing so and distract you from better uses of your time. Don't underestimate the opportunity cost associated with ill-fated projects where one party initiates with heavy terms and contracted obligations.

This is not and will not be a partnership in the early stages, unless you're into taking big risks despite sound advice against doing so, so go in with your eyes wide open. The OP is looking for a supplier of services and/or products, even if he thinks otherwise at this point in time. The need is for such, not for a partner at this stage. Treat him as a customer. That means, be professional, hold yourself accountable for delivering on the commitments you make, but don't ever allow a single customer to limit your options or jeopardise your ability to take what you know and do to other projects, similar or not to the OP's engagement. Don't over-invest yourself in a project if you have any indicators that the payments won't be made in full and on time. It's up to the OP to put in place what YOU need to reassure you in this regard. If the OP doesn't yet have secured funding on hand, I wouldn't be putting any time into this myself.

To reiterate: Time and materials, paid in full, is a good starting point. Test out and prove that the way you work with the OP is beneficial to you, doesn't unduly burden you in terms of draining your resources (time, finances, work life balance, level of stress etc) and only once you've had the chance to assess their suitability as a business partner should the discussion proceed in this direction.

To Ben, and other interested parties, I wish you well.

kadman · 15-01-2021 11:41pm

Good post Jayzeus, thanks for your valued input.

In the op's opening post, Ben has clearly asked for expressions of interest from up and coming carpenters.
On that note Ben may be unaware of the skilset taught to a trained carpenter in Ireland. Its predominantly
construction based skils, as in those related to home building. Roofing,timber frame,shuttering, flooring ect,ect.
These are mainly involved with rough timber elements, and require skill to master, but not necessarily the right skilset
Ben should be seeking.

I have had the privilege of seeing similar designs required, I think a carpenter is the wrong choice for this, its like
choosing a mechanic for some panel beating work. He may be familiar with the process, but he is not specifically trained for it.
Having seen the proposed type of item required, if it was me, I would be seeking someone who is familiar with making a wooden Item,
in solid material, and finish the same. This is not the realm of a carpenter. This is the art of either a cabinet maker, furniture maker,
or an experienced woodworker. All mentioned should be able to think so far outside of the box, that there is no box.

You need the skilset, and a flair for imaginitive thinking to be able to deliver an idea or concept, that is not constrained by a normal methods.

Still waiting on the design brief for discussion.?

BenvanNiekerk · 18-01-2021 9:12am

Thank you for the very productive post JayZeus. I realize you are trying to protect your fellow woodworkers on the forum, and I also saw a good tip (or three) in your last post. Much appreciated.

Kadman, your explanation regarding the skill set of a carpenter vs. e.g. a furniture maker was also enlightening, and I thank you for that too.

As for the design brief for discussion, I'd prefer to not share the designs publicly, for now, however, 95% of the product will be standard furniture with a small twist - however good quality console tables, coffee tables, or bedside lockers are small examples. There are only a few items that require steam bending (or perhaps lamination as Kadman showed us in the video), however, this will be dealt with when the time is right.

Thankfully a very experienced person made contact, and he has been around the block many times, so no need for you to worry that I might pull the wool over a junior's eyes

We had a very productive meeting, and we are prototyping the first design this week. The aim is that we empower local communities as much as possible during the entire process, and ensure an extremely sustainable approach to everything we do. It was great to meet a like-minded person, so I hope this is the start of a good relationship.

The local enterprise office is also on board, with a mentor already assigned to the project and meetings already held - as JayZeus rightly stated: I might know how to run a large organization, but small ones are a different breed. It is important that you know that which you don't know (a.k.a. trying to mitigate the Dunning-Kruger effect). I look forward to implementing what I learnt in large companies in the small one, and also what I learn from the small company, into the larger ones.

I'll keep you all up to date as things progress, and look forward to continuing to learn from you all.

Ben

kadman · 18-01-2021 10:08am

Well done, I hope the process goes well for both you and your new associate.:)

kadman · 21-03-2021 12:49pm

2 months now since the initial thread, any chance of an up date on how the prototypes went.

I would say a lot here would be interested.:)

Calahonda52 · 21-03-2021 5:16pm

kadman wrote: »

2 months now since the initial thread, any chance of an up date on how the prototypes went.

I would say a lot here would be interested.:)

IPO imminent perhaps

kadman · 23-03-2021 8:24pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

IPO imminent perhaps

Are you in?:D

timfromtang · 24-03-2021 9:46pm

kadman wrote: »

Are you in?:D

sometimes things happen slowly kadman, patience my friend...
tim

[Deleted User] · 24-03-2021 11:39pm

timfromtang wrote: »

sometimes things happen slowly kadman, patience my friend...
tim

I ran out of patience a long time ago on this particular thread. :P

kadman · 08-04-2021 8:42am

3 months now...................whats taking so long,

perhaps you guys need help from some professionals on here, we are many...:D

Commercial partnership with up and coming carpenter

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