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Private busses clamp down on free passes?

  • 12-08-2010 9:36am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    last night on the jj kavanaghs 11.15pm waterford bus the driver was getting photo I'd from most people with travel passes! I think this should be a condition of travel on all services as I have all to often seen people getting on with their free ticket written out expecting to travel without even showing a travel pass!

    Then two "lads" one with a travel pass, got on in naas and he was asked to pay but refused stating his dole receipt or some other bit of paper was identification enough and went down the back of the bus, the driver left him and pulled up at the garda station but apparently was told by the guards to take the two lads!

    Does anyone know can private operators insist on photo I'd from free pass holders or are they stuck with fraudulent use of some passes?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Does anyone know can private operators insist on photo I'd from free pass holders or are they stuck with fraudulent use of some passes?

    I thought all passes had photo's on them? Any OAP ones I've seen people show on DB do anyway, as do the blue ones (social welfare ones I thinking judging by the usual holders)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    I thought all passes had photo's on them? Any OAP ones I've seen people show on DB do anyway, as do the blue ones (social welfare ones I thinking judging by the usual holders)
    No, when someone first gets a free travel pass from the HSE it contains no photo, only name and PPS number and instructions on where to get photo pass, it is up to the individual to go to the DB head office on O'Connel St and get a photo ID card.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    you only need a CIE photopass if you live in certain areas
    In addition, if you live in Dublin, Cork city, Waterford city, Limerick city or Galway city you must also produce a Free Travel Photo ID, which you can get from CIE offices for free. You should obtain this photopass within one month of receiving your Travel Pass.

    You and your accompanying spouse or partner may also need to produce evidence of identity, by providing a sample of your signature(s) to the officials mentioned above.
    http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW40/Pages/9DoIneedtoshowevidenceofmyidentity.aspx

    here is more info on the scheme http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/FreeTravel/Pages/FreeTravel.aspx#Information1

    i just thought that private operators at least should be allowed insist on seeing a driving license or passport as those photo passes can be got very easily, you have a travel pass and report it lost and apply for a new one so i then go to CIE with the new pass and the voucher for the photo id and all i need to do is bring a proof oy address from the original pass holder. nowhere in the scheme is actual photo id sought by any department or arm of the state leaving the whole scheme open to fraud and corruption!

    and WTF is tha bolded part about? evidence of identity can be an example of your signiture???


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Does anyone know can private operators insist on photo I'd from free pass holders or are they stuck with fraudulent use of some passes?
    Private operators are under no obligation to allow free travel to pass holders, so they would be perfectly within their rights to insist that anyone presenting such a pass is required to produce photo identification.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    seamus wrote: »
    Private operators are under no obligation to allow free travel to pass holders, so they would be perfectly within their rights to insist that anyone presenting such a pass is required to produce photo identification.
    i thought they had to accept free travel passes as part of their licences for certain routes?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    i thought they had to accept free travel passes as part of their licences for certain routes?

    No they're not. They can apply to join the free travel scheme, but are not obliged to do so, unless there is a public service obligation element to the service.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    I am trying to figure out why the driver allowed the lads to travel last night after speaking to guards in naas? Would the guards have told him to take them? I doubt there is any public service obligation to the Dublin-waterford route as it is covered already by bus eireann.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    Maybe JJ Kavanagh are a voluntary member of the scheme - as I said above there is no obligation to be a member.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭tombliboo83


    The guards can ask and not tell. I had two lads removed from a train at 8in the morning for being drunk and causing a nuisance. Guard talked to them and asked me were they alright to continue onwards, my reply..no. So the bus driver probably felt intimidated having to deal with the guards and forgot he had the right to refuse access admittance


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Posted by KC61:
    Maybe JJ Kavanagh are a voluntary member of the scheme - as I said above there is no obligation to be a member.

    This may well be a "first-instance" of recognition that the DSP Free Travel Scheme is in DEEP distress.

    This particular instance may well also have something to do with the particular company`s trading status and the increased requirement to collect actual revenue for services provided rather than the notional system in effect with the DSP.

    Most,if not all,participants in the DSP Free Travel scheme will negotiate a rate based upon various arcane formulae or in very few cases actual journey statistics.

    I would be prepared to speculate that the DSP has reduced or is refusing to renogotiate upwards on its current arrangements to fund the Public Transport needs of its "customers".

    What very few realize is that Free Travel is a misnomer as,in reality,it is anything but Free.
    In it`s original form it was an easily managed and administered scheme with only a single annual financial transaction required between the DSW (as it was) and CIE.

    The actual divvying out of the Free Travel Scheme funds was then an internal CIE matter.
    The initial breakup of CIE in 1987 and the requirement for 3 seperate sets of accounts brought with it a new awareness of the extent of the Scheme Benefits....and costs.

    It was the late Michael McDonnell as Chairman of the CIE group who first spotted the worrying capability for the "nod and wink" Free Travel situation to develop into a very large black financial hole for the companies.

    Iarnrod Eireann were thus the first of the CIE companies to introduce a requirement to accquire an actual travel ticket upon presentation of one`s Free Pass which then allowed the company to harvest (very) accurate data on its useage patterns.

    Both of the Bus Companies however have lagged far behind,for a number of reasons,primarily the reluctance of the Dept of Social Welfare/Protection to agree to a new format digitized pass which would reduce the level of fraud/misuse simultaneously increasing the available travel pattern data.

    It also needs to be borne in mind that whilst new Operators such as Luas and Aircoach came on line and others also began to voluntarily enter the Free Travel scheme the total amount of funding has not increased in comparison to the customer base.

    Also of significance is the Northern Ireland Offices refusal to entertain this lump-sum approach to the extension of the scheme to a 32 county one.
    The NIO/Translink insisted upon the Republic`s customers embracing the NI fully digitized Concessionary Senior Smartpass thus allowing them to seek prompt payment based upon instant and accurate user data,a feature still not available darn sarff

    With the Total Free Travel Funding remaining static but the numbers availing of it,increasing,there can only be one outcome unless somebody gets-a-grip.

    The actual figure disbursed in Free Travel Scheme payments can be very difficult to ascertain as the Department and the CIE group tend to muddy the waters somewhat with various alocations to PSO contracts etc.

    The main problem now for ALL operators is the large increase in Pass Holders,many of whom now have far more time available to spend "Free" travelling.

    The main problem for the Department and those actually funding the scheme (Taxpayers) is the amount of Free Travel Scheme beneficiaries who have accquired Passes on the back of another allowance whilst having little or no Social Welfare contribution history.

    Any attempt to promote a debate on the Free Travel Scheme issue is usually blown out of the water by first mention of the Old Age Pension Pass,which although a significant proportion of the Free Travel Scheme is now but only one of a number of subsectors who can avail of its benefits.

    Perhaps JJ Kavanaghs Driver may have been overzealous or perhaps from a different ethnic background which has far less tolerance of nodding & winking to our own,but I reckon we shall be seeing and hearing a lot more on this particular topic :)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    as of June 1st I understand the department had paid for nothing incurred in 2010. A photo id medical card would do it, if you are entitled to free travel you are also entitled to a free medical card I believe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    @ AlexSmart the increase in numbers of free travel passes can be mostly atributed to fraudulant passes imo and asking/insisting on seeing a proper photo id instead of the CIE photo id is all that is required to clamp down on fraudulant passes


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    he was asked to pay but refused stating his dole receipt or some other bit of paper was identification enough and went down the back of the bus, the driver left him and pulled up at the garda station but apparently was told by the guards to take the two lads!
    Right to refuse admission is pointless if someone boards, refuses to leave and there is no avenue to enforce the trespass. Do the Transport Acts give more power to CIE to compel garda assistance than the legislation enabling private operators, perhaps?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭anotherlostie


    I'm often on one of the 'seventies' buses into town and every second person produces the free travel pass. I know you can never assume with regard to illness and outward appearance, but I think abuse of the system is rampant.

    I was once on a Bus Eireann bus and the driver refused to let on a couple because he said the passes weren't legit. I suppose it's too much hassle for Dublin Bus drivers to do the same stop after stop.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    I know you can never assume with regard to illness and outward appearance, but I think abuse of the system is rampant.

    I work in public transport and more free travel-passers travel with us than paying customers and to a man anyone who causes us hassle (drink/drugs/stealing/violent behaviour) has a free pass. Abuse of the system is absolutely rampant and there is no requirement for them to have photo ID yet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Right to refuse admission is pointless if someone boards, refuses to leave and there is no avenue to enforce the trespass. Do the Transport Acts give more power to CIE to compel garda assistance than the legislation enabling private operators, perhaps?
    these two had followed the driver in to the garda station to argue their case in front of the guards and the driver, i suppose they didnt like the idea of only one side being heard? but surely the guards should have told the driver to take them or leave them at that stage or maybe they did not want two out of town scumbags on their turf for the night?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    just to add some balance to this thread i wanted to add that we all or most of us know people who have been injured badly in road crashes and were left with serious brain injuries after the scars have healed and who may seem like they are continously pissed or strung out on heroin all the time. because of their injuries they sometimes lose bladder control or will not behave appropriately in situations, many of the free passes are these people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Oliver1985


    Do private operators have to take these?
    In fairness it has to be one things that is full of fraud :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Posted by Foggy_Lad:-
    just to add some balance to this thread i wanted to add that we all or most of us know people who have been injured badly in road crashes and were left with serious brain injuries after the scars have healed and who may seem like they are continously pissed or strung out on heroin all the time. because of their injuries they sometimes lose bladder control or will not behave appropriately in situations, many of the free passes are these people.

    I`m afraid that in the context of c.600,000 Free Travel passes reportedly in circulation I cannot agree with the above.

    I would suggest that those in the position described by Foggy_Lad are a miniscule proportion of the Total and very far from what could be described as "many".

    Just to clarify my own position on the issue,I do not have any issue with a properly administered and funded Free Travel scheme on Public Transport.

    If the Pass Holder qualifies for the concession then thats that.

    Nobody would question the entitlement of persons as described above in Foggy_Lads post.

    However,what has been apparent to most Front Line Public Transport Staff is now slowly dawning on the middle management too....The numbers are not stacking up.

    600,000 passes with a theoretical entitlement to a spouse/partner/companion leaves us with a Public Transport system serving a Total Population of say 3 million adults of whom c.1,000,000 are not required to pay anything....that presents us with an imbalance of Titanic proportions.

    I should add that the 600,000 figure came from a Dept of Social Welfare official testifying to an Oireacthas Joint Committee who was unable to be specific,which in itself is an appaling indication of ineptitude in any system.

    From my own perspective I make a point of checking as many of the passes as I can but I also have to bear in mind the delay this causes to my bread and butter passengers who are entitled to as fast and comfortable a journey as possible.

    It is my experience that if I call a pass holder and ask to see the document (Which theoretically should have been displayed to me anyway) I can expect quite some resistance to that request.

    Invariably the "Pass Holder Only" qualification will be covered up or I`ll be shown the reverse side of the document as the "accompanying" person has already bounded up the stairs.

    Once the Pass Holder or their companion has gone past,the battle is lost...The only rational approach is to attempt to get a look at the Pass before the holder gets past.
    Invariably the document itself will be strategically defaced and ,if an Urban address,will not have a Photo ID.

    The Urban Pass Holder often uses the Photo ID card on its own,pleading ignorance of the need to have both parts to travel.
    In many cases that`s because the Cardboard section is in use by a friend or relative without the photo id.

    The most frequent reaction I get,on a daily basis,is simple verbal abuse along the lines of "No other Drivers have a Problem" or "You`ll be kept alright" usually followed by other terms of endearment from the companion whom I then seek a fare from....If that sounds like too much hassle,then you`re dead right...it is....which is why most Busdrivers simply don`t bother any longer.

    Few appear to accept the logic that any system which does not respect itself,soon loses the respect of everybody else and nowhere is that more apparent than with the Free Travel Scheme as it currently stands.

    This topic is NOT about withdrawing the Free Travel Pass from those who deserve and respect its benefits,rather it is about the wisdom of the State funding the Public Transport requirements of a significant number of people who,oddly enough, can fund their own Jewelery,Mobile Communications,Alcoholic and Fashion requirements with little apparent difficulty.

    It`s fairly obvious to many within this business that a major default may soon force the hands of several major operators and perhaps introduce a form of Concessionary Fare scheme rather than a Free one as at present.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    is there not about 400k unemployed and retired and disabled to make up the rest of the 600k? in the country.

    Maybe if the govt got out of the govt jet in Derry and implemented a few auld job creation policies there wouldn't be as many free pass holders.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    is there not about 400k unemployed and retired and disabled to make up the rest of the 600k? in the country.

    Maybe if the govt got out of the govt jet in Derry and implemented a few auld job creation policies there wouldn't be as many free pass holders.

    Being unemployed doesn't entitle you to a pass, ask anyone who's lost their job in the past 2 years or so. It's just a coincidence that a lot of long-term unemployed have passes, the same way these people get rent allowance and pretty much everything else paid for them because they opted out of the whole working idea because they can what with us rewarding laziness in this country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    UNemployed persons are not automatically entitled to free travel but if you are a carer for someone with a disability including your own child who is entitled to it then you will get a pass for yourself.
    is there not about 400k unemployed and retired and disabled to make up the rest of the 600k? in the country.

    Maybe if the govt got out of the govt jet in Derry and implemented a few auld job creation policies there wouldn't be as many free pass holders.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Once the Pass Holder or their companion has gone past,the battle is lost...The only rational approach is to attempt to get a look at the Pass before the holder gets past.
    Invariably the document itself will be strategically defaced and ,if an Urban address,will not have a Photo ID.

    Sorry for only quoting part of your excellent post but How do the Revenue Protection people (Inspectors) deal with these cases? Do you get grief from them if they've made it upstairs? Do they throw them off/fine them?

    OT but how often do you get an Inspector on your bus?


  • Registered Users Posts: 886 ✭✭✭stop


    I rarely see revenue protection on Crumlin Road routes, but see them frequently on N11 routes


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    Also, Revenue Protection can do very little really. They'll probably just be told to **** off by the offending passenger or given false contact details. After that all they can do is call the Gardai which staff can do anyway and the Gardai usually want nothing to do with the situation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭Stonewolf


    If only we had transport police eh?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    I'm often on one of the 'seventies' buses into town and every second person produces the free travel pass. I know you can never assume with regard to illness and outward appearance, but I think abuse of the system is rampant.

    78A for me.
    Every second person has a pass.
    Not it's bright and shiny in a wallet like my annual pass that costs several hundred euro.
    It's a battered piece of cardboard.

    Some people are so lazy they won't produce it, they shout "PASS" at the driver and walk on.
    The driver is on his own, it's not an easy situation.

    A lot of pass holders aren't elderly, they are young and able bodied.
    I'm no doctor, if they have a disability then fine, of course you get their entitlements.
    But I often see a person boarding and I can often predict if they use a pass or will be paying.

    It's then these feckers on the 78A who cause trouble.

    Do Dublin Bus want customers paying several hundred euro a year for the service?
    As me and many like me with go cycling or drive a car/motorbike and never pay again.
    And Dublin Bus will lose more money, cut back routes which will drive more customers away and the vicious cycle continues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    seamus wrote: »
    Private operators are under no obligation to allow free travel to pass holders, so they would be perfectly within their rights to insist that anyone presenting such a pass is required to produce photo identification.

    They do have to if the join the scheme and accept payments for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    I would implement discounted travel for all military personnel and gardai - as long as they travel in uniform. They wouldn't be there to act as enforcers, but maybe the sight of them might give the scumbags pause that if they did something there would be someone on board who wouldn't fear testifying at their trial.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Those cases rarely get to court as the dpp would see no benefit in pursuing something so trivial


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