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Do you believe a 'you' exists?

  • 01-05-2011 11:15am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭


    Just wondering what are peoples thoughts on this. I recently had a permanent shift in perception in my mind. The 'me' no longer exists. It is gone, there is no me, just my brain, my body, my thoughts, but no me , no ego.
    This was not just an intellectual understanding or acknowledgement, but a true seeing and knowing, basically a realization.

    The concept of a self is something that we have created through our behaviour, use of language, our methods of feeding individual identity into someone from a young age.
    But the truth is there is no controller, its just this body that is typing this existing in the Universe. It is liberating tbh.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭18AD


    wylo wrote: »
    The concept of a self is something that we have created through our behaviour, use of language, our methods of feeding individual identity into someone from a young age.
    But the truth is there is no controller, its just this body that is typing this existing in the Universe. It is liberating tbh.

    Is the body not in control of itself then? Are you your body? Is your body free?

    Personally, I don't think there exists a 'self' in any real sense of the word.

    The self is basically an idea you have about your body, mind, memories etc... You piece it all together and think you have a unified whole, but in reality there is no such whole. It is a fiction of the mind. You are free to reinterpret this idea whenever and however you want, within certain limits. It's difficult enough though, through force of habit, because you retain many ideas about yourself unwittingly.

    That said, it is a necessary fiction. Without a unified sense of self you would not be able to function in the world. Regardless of whether you identify this self as a body, mind, consciousness, body-mind etc...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    18AD wrote: »
    Is the body not in control of itself then? Are you your body? Is your body free?
    The body is in control of itself, brain functions carry out movement based on decisions in the brain. There is no 'me' or controller. I have completetly eliminated it, I cant even imagine a self now.
    This is called 'enlightenment'. I dont like that word as it sounds spiritual but thats what it is. Its when you see reality for the first time not through the perception of self.
    My mind is in deep piece now, no ego, no inner chatter, no self, no me, just my body, just clarity, real emotions (good or bad), real thoughts and acceptance of existence.
    18AD wrote: »
    Personally, I don't think there exists a 'self' in any real sense of the word.

    The self is basically an idea you have about your body, mind, memories etc... You piece it all together and think you have a unified whole, but in reality there is no such whole. It is a fiction of the mind. You are free to reinterpret this idea whenever and however you want, within certain limits. It's difficult enough though, through force of habit, because you retain many ideas about yourself unwittingly.
    Excellent ,so you have the concept 100% correct, in theory you can acknowledge this, seeing it for the first time is entirely different though but anyone can do it with a bit of work. You can remove the self from your mind. You need to ask where is that self? Can you physically find it? You need to look at a real object like a laptop, observe its realness and physical matter, then go back and find the self. Its just fiction as you say , its an illusion , it doesnt exist in real life.
    18AD wrote: »
    That said, it is a necessary fiction. Without a unified sense of self you would not be able to function in the world. Regardless of whether you identify this self as a body, mind, consciousness, body-mind etc...
    Absolutely untrue, why does you body need some sort of extra controller? I am free from the self, and I am carrying out my normal business as usual, just with true 100% focus, and piece of mind. No distractions, no self interpreting things incorrectly, basically seeing reality for the first time.

    A self is an illusion that is a hindrance to humans. Animals dont have this hindrance, maybe zoo monkeys and pet dogs/cats to an extent, but very little overall compare to humans.
    Reality is much simpler and clearer without the self. Life is simple without it. You dont look for answers you simply accept existence for what it is. Blissful is a bit of an exaggeration but nice? Yes.

    I dont want to come across like a spammer, but heres my blog if your interested. http://theselfisfalse.blogspot.com/
    You have the concept down which is good. I cannot even tell this to family because they'll think Ive gone mad.

    I am only writing this in philosophy as people here are open minded to the concept and also have not devoted their lives to other beliefs. This argument is harder to get through to Buddhists/spiritualists (I tried) because they belief the self can only be removed from a lifetime of meditation, they think enlightenment takes a life time of work, mine was removed within about 2 and a bit weeks. I had no interest in any of this prior to that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 unenlightened1


    18AD wrote: »
    Without a unified sense of self you would not be able to function in the world. Regardless of whether you identify this self as a body, mind, consciousness, body-mind etc...

    Very few species have the idea that 'self' exists. Most of living organisms are living naturally, peacefully without it.

    Animals which could have the 'self virus' ;) are listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test


  • Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭Ms.Odgeynist


    wylo wrote: »
    Just wondering what are peoples thoughts on this. I recently had a permanent shift in perception in my mind. The 'me' no longer exists. It is gone, there is no me, just my brain, my body, my thoughts, but no me , no ego.
    This was not just an intellectual understanding or acknowledgement, but a true seeing and knowing, basically a realization.

    The concept of a self is something that we have created through our behaviour, use of language, our methods of feeding individual identity into someone from a young age.
    But the truth is there is no controller, its just this body that is typing this existing in the Universe. It is liberating tbh.

    Wylo, I'm all for enlightenment but I think you might be getting ahead of your'self' there bud.
    If you 'don't have a self' as you so eloquently put it, what prompted you to come on here and blather on about it.
    If you have no ego, then why do you have such a selfish need to come on here and declare it to the world.
    Without the ego - you are without motive.
    Without a sense of self, I'm afraid you would be quite mad.
    Without self/ego, whatever you want to call it, then what is pondering these big questions?
    Stick with it there my good man,
    who knows, maybe another week or two will do it!!
    Keep us posted!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 unenlightened1


    wylo wrote:
    There is no 'me' or controller. I have completetly eliminated it, I cant even imagine a self now.

    wylo, I believe you truly see that there is no you,
    but, I think what you want to tell is that you're not attached to your ego, because there is no one who could be attached to it ;) 'your' ego still exists (as a fiction/idea but exists) I read many posts on Ruthless Truth about 'liberation' and no one of the liberated said, that they 'can't imagine a self now', I mean... what do you see when you look in the mirror?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭18AD


    Very few species have the idea that 'self' exists. Most of living organisms are living naturally, peacefully without it.

    Animals which could have the 'self virus' ;) are listed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

    Yes, but to function as a person.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,048 ✭✭✭vampire of kilmainham


    Iam on a higher astrel plain of of consiousness


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3 unenlightened1


    18AD wrote: »
    Yes, but to function as a person.

    why do you think so?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭18AD


    wylo wrote: »
    My mind is in deep piece now, no ego, no inner chatter, no self, no me, just my body, just clarity, real emotions (good or bad), real thoughts and acceptance of existence.

    Well done!
    Excellent ,so you have the concept 100% correct, in theory you can acknowledge this, seeing it for the first time is entirely different though but anyone can do it with a bit of work. You can remove the self from your mind. You need to ask where is that self? Can you physically find it? You need to look at a real object like a laptop, observe its realness and physical matter, then go back and find the self. Its just fiction as you say , its an illusion , it doesnt exist in real life.

    Thanks for being so condescending ;)
    Absolutely untrue, why does you body need some sort of extra controller? I am free from the self, and I am carrying out my normal business as usual, just with true 100% focus, and piece of mind. No distractions, no self interpreting things incorrectly, basically seeing reality for the first time.

    So are you saying that before your enlightenment there did exist an extra controller?
    But wasn't your body just always in control of that self anyway? You just didn't know it yet.
    I am only writing this in philosophy as people here are open minded to the concept and also have not devoted their lives to other beliefs. This argument is harder to get through to Buddhists/spiritualists (I tried) because they belief the self can only be removed from a lifetime of meditation, they think enlightenment takes a life time of work, mine was removed within about 2 and a bit weeks. I had no interest in any of this prior to that.

    Buddhism and spiritualism have their own very unique things to offer. I haven't practiced them for a lifetime, so I could not say, but what little I have done has been very interesting.

    I'm happy for you.

    All the best.
    AD


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,821 ✭✭✭18AD


    why do you think so?

    How about I come over to your house and take "your" computer? :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Boroimhe


    If you truly believe what you are saying then who is this "I" you refer to, how is it "Your" brian, body e.t.c? How can you feel emotions and how can you define good or bad?

    I understand and somewhat agree with the whole we are all the universe buzz but to say that there is no I is just incorrect, the animals live without it because they have no understanding of it. We are all different and hence are individuals.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Interesting thread... This is related to a (rather rambley) post I made in another thread...
    Dave! wrote: »
    Presumably we're all pretty sure it's physical

    But I've been thinking a bit lately, and I'm finding it hard to articulate what I'm thinking :p Basically I'm thinking that when people say stuff like "you're lucky to be here", and talk about how if your dad pulled out a couple of seconds earlier you wouldn't exist. I'm not sure there is a unique "you" (woah, deep...). There's certainly a combination of different genes and things that make you look how you do, and that contribute to your personality and other things, but what we think of as "us" is pretty much just the sum total of our memories and experiences, as opposed to us being born with a unique combination of characteristics, which we then use as a vessel for navigating through life experiences, which are completely seperate from who we are. What we think of as our unique make-up and perspective is really only an illusion, and someone only really becomes "who" they are by having experiences.

    Does that make any sense? I've heard mention of the "illusion of free will", but I don't think I read much about it, so have I just unconsciously regurgitated something I got from somewhere else? :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Boroimhe wrote: »
    If you truly believe what you are saying then who is this "I" you refer to, how is it "Your" brian, body e.t.c? How can you feel emotions and how can you define good or bad?

    I understand and somewhat agree with the whole we are all the universe buzz but to say that there is no I is just incorrect, the animals live without it because they have no understanding of it. We are all different and hence are individuals.

    Not sure why you say that... Don't animals have personalities, feel emotions, etc.? Anyone who has a pet dog will tell you that they do! That we are capable of some mental/cognitive tasks that animals aren't is not really evidence of anything. It could be just an emergent feature of having a greater number of synapses (some species has to have the most don't they?), and anyway some other species are capable of cognitive tasks that humans can't achieve, eg. remembering long and complicated routes hundreds of miles long, only resting part of the brain at a time (dolphins do this so that they can swim at the same time), and so on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Wylo, I'm all for enlightenment but I think you might be getting ahead of your'self' there bud.
    If you 'don't have a self' as you so eloquently put it, what prompted you to come on here and blather on about it.
    If you have no ego, then why do you have such a selfish need to come on here and declare it to the world.
    Without the ego - you are without motive.
    Without a sense of self, I'm afraid you would be quite mad.
    Without self/ego, whatever you want to call it, then what is pondering these big questions?
    Stick with it there my good man,
    who knows, maybe another week or two will do it!!
    Keep us posted!
    My motive is to share this with people because it is very very difficult to keep it yourself, and whats worse is the fact most people dont understand. People in this forum do though, because they are philosophers. There was nothing selfish about it, I just didnt want to come and say "Look at me look at me, im enlightened", bla bla. A fail on my part because thats exactly what I did in the end. Sorry


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    wylo, I believe you truly see that there is no you,
    but, I think what you want to tell is that you're not attached to your ego, because there is no one who could be attached to it ;) 'your' ego still exists (as a fiction/idea but exists) I read many posts on Ruthless Truth about 'liberation' and no one of the liberated said, that they 'can't imagine a self now', I mean... what do you see when you look in the mirror?
    Good point, I still see myself, my body ,etc in the mirror, and your right its not like i feel like im looking at someone else.

    Fair enough your right,but its a complete detachment though. I feel existence, I feel a part of that, I do not feel seperate from it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    18AD wrote: »
    Yes, but to function as a person.
    Could you expand on that? What functions need a self? It is truly engrained in our brains that a self is required to carry out functions, but I truly believe it is not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    18AD wrote: »
    Well done!


    Thanks for being so condescending ;)
    ok sorry, i honestly meant that in genuine excitement because its very hard for people to understand yet you just said exactly what I thought Id have to explain.
    18AD wrote: »
    So are you saying that before your enlightenment there did exist an extra controller?


    What existed was a belief that there was a controller, this "controller" was a complete distraction from experiencing existence.
    18AD wrote: »
    But wasn't your body just always in control of that self anyway? You just didn't know it yet.
    Not sure what you mean, could you explain a bit more, it felt more like the illusion of the self was controlling my body , but that wasnt actually the case, there was no controller, it was just a belief

    18AD wrote: »
    Buddhism and spiritualism have their own very unique things to offer. I haven't practiced them for a lifetime, so I could not say, but what little I have done has been very interesting.

    I'm happy for you.

    All the best.
    AD
    They have alot to offer but personally I believe they are a slow way to losing the self

    I apologise for coming on here acting like I was showing off, the complete opposite was meant, Im really hoping people do the same, thats why I came on.
    I had NO interest in this stuff a few weeks ago , the main argument Im trying to make is that removing the self is not something out of reach from ANYBODY, and my point is im an example of that. Im a normal average bloke who was lucky to run into this stuff on another forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Wylo, I'm all for enlightenment but I think you might be getting ahead of your'self' there bud.
    If you 'don't have a self' as you so eloquently put it, what prompted you to come on here and blather on about it.
    If you have no ego, then why do you have such a selfish need to come on here and declare it to the world.
    Without the ego - you are without motive.
    Without a sense of self, I'm afraid you would be quite mad.
    Without self/ego, whatever you want to call it, then what is pondering these big questions?
    Stick with it there my good man,
    who knows, maybe another week or two will do it!!
    Keep us posted!
    Also, I know you meant that last few lines sarcastically but I will genuinely keep you posted.

    I have no sense of self, and I am not quite mad, the brain does not need the self, the self wouldnt exist if humans didnt create it.

    Do you know anyone with a fear of spiders? Do you think something is blocking their view of reality ? Why does their brain trigger a feeling of impending death when they see a harmless spider? Because its a fault , something fed into their brain at a young age that created this.

    Re: the self, my theory is that words and the way behave creates the sense of self in humans from a young age.
    I believe a 6 month old baby has no sense of self.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 767 ✭✭✭HxGH


    Sometimes I stop to think and ask myself... Am I the only one with a "being" as such? A mind? A passion? Is everyone else just there for my own amusement?

    Then I just shrug my shoulders... For I shall never know...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Boroimhe wrote: »
    If you truly believe what you are saying then who is this "I" you refer to, how is it "Your" brian, body e.t.c? How can you feel emotions and how can you define good or bad?

    I understand and somewhat agree with the whole we are all the universe buzz but to say that there is no I is just incorrect, the animals live without it because they have no understanding of it. We are all different and hence are individuals.
    It just a brain, the brain experiences thoughts, emotions are likewise, there doesnt need to be a me for this to occur.

    We are all individual separate bodies/brains/guts/blood etc, no two brains are the same, but this does not mean for a second that the self needs to exist.
    Answer this: Where do you think the self is? Actually try and find it, not just say "its me", where is that self , that thought that gives you that sense of self. The harder you look, the more you realise it doesnt exist.

    Then if you really keep at it, a shift in perception occurs in pretty much a split second, this is only the start, this is when the clarity begins. After that true deep piece of mind occurs, and even stronger clarity because you start seeing that illusion in other people. It is so deeply engrained that they will do anything to defend it.
    I did the same. One of my questions to another guy was
    "Why would we even want to reproduce?", "why would you love or care about anyone else?" I have since realised a self is not needed for any of this to occur. Its just part of life.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Dave! wrote: »
    Interesting thread... This is related to a (rather rambley) post I made in another thread...
    Hey man I could tell by your quote there that you were pretty much fully questioning the existence of the self. It is possible to get rid of it, Im only able to present the logic, im useless at actually "liberating" people (sorry I know those kind of words are unappealing) , but there are people online that can if you're interested.
    All completely free of course, people dont charge for this stuff because its a birthright.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    I appreciate the thought, but I'm not trying to "get rid" of it... Something is either true or it isn't. I'll just keep listening to the various arguments from psychology, neuroscience, philosphy, etc., and I'll take a more solid position then! My post above is just a stream of consciousness kind of thing :D

    But certainly I don't think there's anything special about humans over other animals, so if someone believes that humans have a 'self', but other animals don't, then they'll need to justify that to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    ok cool, sure ill be hanging around for the debate here anyway :)and I like your point, something is either true or it isnt, however an illusion of the self makes something seem true, what I was saying is its possible to get rid of that illusion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Boroimhe


    Dave! wrote: »
    Not sure why you say that... Don't animals have personalities, feel emotions, etc.? Anyone who has a pet dog will tell you that they do! That we are capable of some mental/cognitive tasks that animals aren't is not really evidence of anything. It could be just an emergent feature of having a greater number of synapses (some species has to have the most don't they?), and anyway some other species are capable of cognitive tasks that humans can't achieve, eg. remembering long and complicated routes hundreds of miles long, only resting part of the brain at a time (dolphins do this so that they can swim at the same time), and so on.

    Granted but they can not debate philosophy can they? After all the existence of an "I" is either a scientific or a philosophical question. Scientifically there is obviously an individual, granted by more or less synapsis and raised by our experiences but none the less we are individual and therfore there is an I.

    Philosophically there is obviously an I, your unique view and thought process makes you an idividual, your unique experiences and feelings on those experiences are what makes you who you are. You can not choose to cease being an individual because the world around you will always relate to you as one and you will therfore be forced to react and interact as an individual not to mention the fact that your thought process are still based on your view and how the point in question relates to you. Seriously?
    wylo wrote: »
    My motive is to share this with people because it is very very difficult to keep it yourself, and whats worse is the fact most people dont understand. People in this forum do though, because they are philosophers. There was nothing selfish about it, I just didnt want to come and say "Look at me look at me, im enlightened", bla bla. A fail on my part because thats exactly what I did in the end. Sorry


    Look at your wording, "my motive, I just didn't.... Thats exactly what I did in the end. Where is the lack of self?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Boroimhe wrote: »

    Look at your wording, "my motive, I just didn't.... Thats exactly what I did in the end. Where is the lack of self?
    When you lose the self, you stop caring about using the words 'I', I was sceptical about it too , and when I was learning about it, I kept putting I in inverted commas, and I kept saying stuff like "The body that types this", but you know what? the word I just a word, it represents this body. And when you lose the self it doesnt bother you to use the word in reference to this body.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,068 ✭✭✭Bodhisopha


    wylo wrote: »
    ok cool, sure ill be hanging around for the debate here anyway :)and I like your point, something is either true or it isnt, however an illusion of the self makes something seem true, what I was saying is its possible to get rid of that illusion.

    So when you get rid of that illusion do you "let yourself go"? Lose interest in things you like, get fat, dress shabbily?

    You have my interest. Sell it to me!


  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Boroimhe


    wylo wrote: »
    When you lose the self, you stop caring about using the words 'I', I was sceptical about it too , and when I was learning about it, I kept putting I in inverted commas, and I kept saying stuff like "The body that types this", but you know what? the word I just a word, it represents this body. And when you lose the self it doesnt bother you to use the word in reference to this body.

    Can you clarify on your logic or the thought process that brought you where you are now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Bodhisopha wrote: »
    So when you get rid of that illusion do you "let yourself go"? Lose interest in things you like, get fat, dress shabbily?

    You have my interest. Sell it to me!
    absolutely not, the body still wants to take care of itself, the body still wants to attract other humans, I still wash my clothes and exercise, im still trying to work at setting up a business. And its a great point, cause thats exactly what I thought, a sort of "why would you bother if 'you' didnt matter. But the truth is, people seem to think the self is what makes you human. Im saying its an unnecessary hindrance.
    I will admit though that for me personally there was a slight zap in motivation because when you live in the moment other things stop being important.
    It didnt actually stop me from doing stuff, I just didnt think about it, I just did it, and was 100% focused when doing it.

    The ego , the messy one, the one that makes you care about stupid things that are not important, the one that makes you feel awkward silences, the one that creates pointless inhibitions like not asking someone something that you want to, the one that keeps you trying to argue your point even though you know you've lost, the one that skews your view of how things really are, that ego is the self I talk about, when you drop this things become simpler and more obvious.

    Dropping this does NOT mean dropping compassion, emotions, sadness, anger, you are still a human being, and behave like one, you just become more chilled out, because stupid things arent important, you family friends and comfort it important.
    So on that note, yes to an extent you must be careful you dont zen out on a mountain or something, you must keep engaging in life. Because otherwise you will just become isolated and presumed crazy. No human or animal wants that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,214 ✭✭✭wylo


    Boroimhe wrote: »
    Can you clarify on your logic or the thought process that brought you where you are now?
    Ok ill post up here everything I went through, the help I got, including links to forums etc, and the final result
    Itll be long but I will jump for joy if even one person comes back here and says that it worked for them, so itll be worth a try.

    Just gonna write it out properly then post.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Boroimhe


    wylo wrote: »
    Ok ill post up here everything I went through, the help I got, including links to forums etc, and the final result
    Itll be long but I will jump for joy if even one person comes back here and says that it worked for them, so itll be worth a try.

    Just gonna write it out properly then post.

    Your a saint and a scholar. Well your mind makes your body act in the fashion of a saint and a sholar :D;)


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