Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? READ OP

Water John · 05-08-2020 8:49pm

This is the Caravaggio argument. He was a skilled painter but he murdered a man, does it take from his craft?

Really liked Cantona U tube. That's because I'm from Cork but seriously Irwin was one of the greatest full backs of all time.
Make the German, Lamb the other full back on the greatest team.

The Lost Sheep · 05-08-2020 9:18pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

GAA is by far the most important sport in this country and my list reflects that.

And as for keane i wouldn't have him near any list. A wannabe hard man who only a few weeks ago said somebody should be swinging punches at de gea because of a mistake live on Sky ,and all the clowns laugh and think he's hilarious. Always the hard angry man. Pathetic. Character is part of any player/sports person for me and that lad is so far lacking in any class he doesn't even enter the equation.

But hey you have your own list thats fair enough.

GAA may be the biggest and most cultural irish sporting organisation but to have 2/3 of a list of best irish sportspeople of all time. no.
And Keane was far from a wannabe hard man. His actual ability as a footballer is often forgotten with people simply focusing on his determination, anger or whatever else.

irishguitarlad · 05-08-2020 9:56pm

Its all subjective anyways in the end, I will say though that the premier league marketing machine has worked brilliantly judging by some of the pósters around here.

paul71 · 06-08-2020 3:51am

irishguitarlad wrote: »

Its all subjective anyways in the end, I will say though that the premier league marketing machine has worked brilliantly judging by some of the pósters around here.

This ^^^^ at NO stage has the premier league been clearly the best, at most it was joint top for a couple of years. More often it is a distant 3rd or 4th behind varying combinations of the Bundesliga, Serie A, and/or La Liga. In fact the period of time that I would have ranked an English football league as consistantly 1 or 2 was the 70s and early 80s, prior to the ban due to Heysel stadium and pre-existing the premier league.

Nesta99 · 06-08-2020 4:32am

This is such a subjective subject. I'm cant read through all the posts but my own thinking is that you cant have one greatest Irish sports person ever. Many have contributed to the wonderful experiences us sports fans occasionally get to experience. Internationally in team sports but quite contemporary is yer Keane, McGrath, Brady examples. Boxing, McGuigan, Taylor, Collins. Athletics its Sonia O'Sullivan. We have had world class athletes in other sports, incredible results against the odds (cricket and hockey examples).

But looking back over a whole era of Irish sporting legends you have to rank Ronnie Delaney's Olympic gold. People should look up Tom Coneff, a runner. Tom Sharkey boxer. Achieving what they did without nutritionists, sports science, no PED question marks! Achievements, especially Coneff, that would still be impressive today.

Include GAA greats like Christy Ring, the more modern legends for those in certain counties. Managers that made the players.

We should never look for one best ever sports person as there are many. They would likely tell ye where to go if ye tried to say they were THE best ever. Wind up type OP, Keane is one sporting legend among many many greats from a small country that has always punched above its weight. Just imagine the legacy if there had been proper funding of our elite athletes over he years, John Tracey may have had Olympic gold in the marathon, Eamonn Coughlan turning indoor records to compete with Coe, Cram and Ovett.

Some incredible stuff and no one single great but many greats!!

YFlyer · 06-08-2020 5:06am

paul71 wrote: »

This ^^^^ at NO stage has the premier league been clearly the best, at most it was joint top for a couple of years. More often it is a distant 3rd or 4th behind varying combinations of the Bundesliga, Serie A, and/or La Liga. In fact the period of time that I would have ranked an English football league as consistantly 1 or 2 was the 70s and early 80s, prior to the ban due to Heysel stadium and pre-existing the premier league.

Last season four English clubs got to European finals.

Nesta99 · 06-08-2020 5:52am

paul71 wrote: »

This ^^^^ at NO stage has the premier league been clearly the best, at most it was joint top for a couple of years. More often it is a distant 3rd or 4th behind varying combinations of the Bundesliga, Serie A, and/or La Liga. In fact the period of time that I would have ranked an English football league as consistantly 1 or 2 was the 70s and early 80s, prior to the ban due to Heysel stadium and pre-existing the premier league.

Again subjective - best league in the world depends on what people class as 'best'. Technical ability over all sides its behind a number of leagues, Spain and Germany and maybe even smaller leagues like Portugal. Most difficult to win? Probably yes as there are a number of clubs that can compete for the title (usually) compared to Bayern's domination or Barce, Real Madrid. Most entertaining? I would say yes, certainly in comparison to the slow build up style associated with Serie A. The EPL is frenetic, high tempo, often fiesty, good number of derbys. If being the best is based on European success then like ever other league it has had its dominant periods. Wealthiest - no doubt about that when worldwide TV deals and demand are taken in to conideration. Top few clubs in Spain, Germany can splash out but not too many leagues have mid table sides that could splash 100mil ala Fulham, Everton with no obvious jump in lgue position.

All that said I do like watching lower league games, smaller leagues, League of Ireland as ye dont have some state sponsored bankrolled sides or oil tycoons with a play thing.

paul71 · 06-08-2020 7:42am

Nesta99 wrote: »

This is such a subjective subject. I'm cant read through all the posts but my own thinking is that you cant have one greatest Irish sports person ever. Many have contributed to the wonderful experiences us sports fans occasionally get to experience. Internationally in team sports but quite contemporary is yer Keane, McGrath, Brady examples. Boxing, McGuigan, Taylor, Collins. Athletics its Sonia O'Sullivan. We have had world class athletes in other sports, incredible results against the odds (cricket and hockey examples).

But looking back over a whole era of Irish sporting legends you have to rank Ronnie Delaney's Olympic gold. People should look up Tom Coneff, a runner. Tom Sharkey boxer. Achieving what they did without nutritionists, sports science, no PED question marks! Achievements, especially Coneff, that would still be impressive today.

Include GAA greats like Christy Ring, the more modern legends for those in certain counties. Managers that made the players.

We should never look for one best ever sports person as there are many. They would likely tell ye where to go if ye tried to say they were THE best ever. Wind up type OP, Keane is one sporting legend among many many greats from a small country that has always punched above its weight. Just imagine the legacy if there had been proper funding of our elite athletes over he years, John Tracey may have had Olympic gold in the marathon, Eamonn Coughlan turning indoor records to compete with Coe, Cram and Ovett.

Some incredible stuff and no one single great but many greats!!

I think you may have been the first to bring up a boxer other than Katie Taylor, I have seen mention of Eddie Irvine, but I find odd i that there has been almost no mention of a sport where we are amoung the World leaders. No Pat or Paul Eddery, or Mick Kinane.

irishguitarlad · 06-08-2020 9:04am

Nesta99 wrote: »

Again subjective - best league in the world depends on what people class as 'best'. Technical ability over all sides its behind a number of leagues, Spain and Germany and maybe even smaller leagues like Portugal. Most difficult to win? Probably yes as there are a number of clubs that can compete for the title (usually) compared to Bayern's domination or Barce, Real Madrid. Most entertaining? I would say yes, certainly in comparison to the slow build up style associated with Serie A. The EPL is frenetic, high tempo, often fiesty, good number of derbys. If being the best is based on European success then like ever other league it has had its dominant periods. Wealthiest - no doubt about that when worldwide TV deals and demand are taken in to conideration. Top few clubs in Spain, Germany can splash out but not too many leagues have mid table sides that could splash 100mil ala Fulham, Everton with no obvious jump in lgue position.

All that said I do like watching lower league games, smaller leagues, League of Ireland as ye dont have some state sponsored bankrolled sides or oil tycoons with a play thing.

You clearly haven't watched serie a in a long time, sure Juventus have dominated the last decade but the league has definitely shaken off the moniker of being slow and boring.

Nesta99 · 06-08-2020 9:17am

The list could go on and on - rowing and sailing are in a golden era. Snooker wth Doherty as world champions (Higgins and Taylor also if Ervine is in the mix, obviously George Best too). The future is bright with Thomas Barr, Gina Apke Moses, Kate o'Connor all potential medalists at senior levels if they continue to develop beyond student/youth levels.

There are probably more boxers that deserve a mention eg Carruth but the ones mentioned are truly in the world class greats categories.

Nesta99 · 06-08-2020 9:23am

irishguitarlad wrote: »

You clearly haven't watched serie a in a long time, sure Juventus have dominated the last decade but the league has definitely shaken off the moniker of being slow and boring.

Fair enough. Would it compete with the EPL as a particularly competitive and at times physical league? I find the Championship far more interesting and super competitive. Serie A has struggled to gain world-wide viewership on the level of England, where it's highly unlikely that a 10 in a row could happen.

Edgware · 06-08-2020 9:55am

If the Olympics had gone ahead we might be highlighting the O Donovan brothers or Sanita Puspure as they were in with good medal chances. I know Puspure is Latvian born but rows for Ireland.
I dont know any other female who rowed for Ireland.

06-08-2020 11:10am

Keane is disallowed for not qualifying as a sportsman:

Sportsman: a person who exhibits qualities especially esteemed in those who engage in sports, as fairness, courtesy, good temper, etc.

Keane was forthright about his motivations for wanting to inflict some pain on Haaland.

“I’d waited long enough. I ****ing hit him hard. The ball was there (I think). Take that you c*nt."

IAMAMORON · 06-08-2020 12:08pm

Simon Geoghegan, carried the Irish rugby team during a very fallow epoch. He brought a new dimension to the side step and rarely kicked for touch. A true Corinthian, his likes may never be seen again.

Maurice Fitzgerald is probably still the king of Cahirsiveen. One of the most skillful footballers from south Kerry - with respect to Jack O'Shea.

Roy Keane was a great soccer player, but he really is a terribly shallow entry in greatness. His association with television punditry has really highlighted the limits of his charisma. He is slowly becoming the pub bore of soccer punditry. He could at least take a leaf out of the books of Brady, Giles and Dunphy - who are all sadly missed on my gogglebox. It is ironic that television producers have ignored his disability to motivate dressing rooms, he is hardly quality TV either. I would rather watch a balding Alan Shearer gurning on the couch dishing out bland Geordy platitudes to ex professional nobodies. Even Gary Neville is a better watch then Roy Keane, that is his level now really. Good luck Roy.

Professional boxing is not technically a sport, it is known in business circles as " a racket ". I can stomach amateur boxing, although it has been proven to be just as corrupt - I am an avid gambler but bookmakers should not be permitted to open markets on amateur boxing - think about it.

I think Paul Kimmage has never properly received the Kudos he deserves for challenging the very ethics of a sport he loved and cared about. I am sure that chemists will always have a home on the Alps and the Pyrenees come July, but it takes proper bottle to thread a thin line on your career for the pursuit of truth. He was heckled, laughed at and despised by his former contemporaries, but he reached the finish line and uncovered a deep tumor in cycling. He should be respected and remembered for that. In my eyes he is a bigger man than Roche or Kelly, despite his love of the sticky bottle.

National Hunt jockeys are the most under respected sports professionals in the country. Jumping 7 foot high fences at 35 mph on a half tonne mammal with a brain the size of an apple takes some doing. Roy Keane should stick to breaking his opponents knees, different league.

Honorable mentions to Owen Mulligan - scorer of one of Croke Park's great goals, it needs to be seen to be believed. Davy Fitzgerald - not just for his sublime accent but for his pastime as a publican, the man has substance and can run a mile around Clarecastle in under 4 minutes- allegedly. Padraig Harrington - might never get to many celebrity dinner party invites, but 2 back to back Open Championships takes some doing, a remarkable achievement.

Finally the dignity with which Sonia O'Sullivan carried herself throughout her career should never be forgotten. She is the best thing to come out of Cork, city or county , since time began.

irishguitarlad · 06-08-2020 12:59pm

Nesta99 wrote: »

Fair enough. Would it compete with the EPL as a particularly competitive and at times physical league? I find the Championship far more interesting and super competitive. Serie A has struggled to gain world-wide viewership on the level of England, where it's highly unlikely that a 10 in a row could happen.

The EPL has an illusion of competitiveness, you have the top six and then the rest are pretty poor, Leicester(whose winning of the league will never happen again for a team outside the top 6) and Wolves had a good year this year but this is an anomaly, I can guarantee you that the big six will be re-established again next year.

Also, La Liga and Serie A struggle with viewers partly because they don't have the marketing power of the EPL and also the EPL has an advantage that English is its main language which lets be honest is the Lengua franca nowadays of the world so much more people can understand the commentary, interact with websites and news articles about the EPL.

Furthermore EPL has the money but does this work in its favour? I think a lot of players don't give a **** when they go there as they are on massive money and they have it made, they are mercenaries. That's why you often see smaller Spanish teams beat EPL teams with massive wage bills. I'd say they train harder as they are hungrier and work more on technique. I prefer La liga anyways, I think the PL is the McDonalds of football.

eagle eye · 06-08-2020 1:37pm

Amazing the amount of you just ignoring that this thing is over. No doubt that James Cecil Parke is our greatest ever sportsman.

mrkiscool2 · 06-08-2020 2:27pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Amazing the amount of you just ignoring that this thing is over. No doubt that James Cecil Parke is our greatest ever sportsman.

Because he played a lot of sports at a high level? That wasn't uncommon in the early 20th century. Would never happen today.

EmmetSpiceland · 06-08-2020 3:10pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Amazing the amount of you just ignoring that this thing is over. No doubt that James Cecil Parke is our greatest ever sportsman.

Honourable mentions to Martin Sheridan and Mabel Esmonde Cahill, of course.

eagle eye · 07-08-2020 3:03am

mrkiscool2 wrote:

Because he played a lot of sports at a high level? That wasn't uncommon in the early 20th century. Would never happen today.

Name another Irish sportsman that came close to what Parke did.
I can tell you here and now that you won't find one.

Mysterypunter · 07-08-2020 4:55am

eagle eye wrote: »

Name another Irish sportsman that came close to what Parke did.
I can tell you here and now that you won't find one.

His biography is dodgy out, it said he played first class cricket, for who? Samuel beckett played first class cricket, for trinity college. One game donkeys years ago, this parke dude doesn't register as a cricketer, won a few tap around tennis matches where only Toffs played, and headed off at the weekend to shoot pheasant, that's what the upper classes did in them times, anyway on the subject of contenders being ignored I nominate Sean Drea, again.

Tell me how · 07-08-2020 5:01am

Mysterypunter wrote: »

His biography is dodgy out, it said he played first class cricket, for who? Samuel beckett played first class cricket, for trinity college. One game donkeys years ago, this parke dude doesn't register as a cricketer, won a few tap around tennis matches where only Toffs played, and headed off at the weekend to shoot pheasant, that's what the upper classes did in them times, anyway on the subject of contenders being ignored I nominate Sean Drea, again.

How would Sean compare with Paul O'Donovan who has 4 Gold World Championship medals and an Olympic silver and also a European Gold? Or his brother Gary who has 2 World Championships, Olympic Silver and Euro Gold.

Mysterypunter · 07-08-2020 5:02am

Mysterypunter wrote: »

Ireland never got past the last 8 in a world cup, so rugby players can't be considered, its the world stage, not beating France and England at home, and Wales and Scotland away. To win the 5 nations, (everyone beats Italy). Why is the Clones Cyclone not mentioned at all, Barry McGuigan won 27 straight fights in a tough division, and only got chinned because of the greed of his promoter Barney Eastwood who wanted to make a few quid, and sent him out to fight in very high temperatures against Steve Cruz in Vegas. Northern bias again maybe. Sean Drea would be my pick, a high class rower who was second in the world champions, in 1975, broke the world record in the Olympic semi final the following year, but unfortunately only managed 4th in the final. He spent a lot of his career rowing against Russians, who cheated a bit, and notorious East Germany who cheated a lot, where even the women had beards.

Here is my original post

Mysterypunter · 07-08-2020 5:06am

Tell me how wrote: »

How would Sean compare with Paul O'Donovan who has 4 Gold World Championship medals and an Olympic silver and also a European Gold? Or his brother Gary who has 2 World Championships, Olympic Silver and Euro Gold.

He won the Henley single sculls 3 years succession 1973-75, silver in the world championship in England, 1975, broke the world record in the Olympic semi final in Montreal, and unlucky 4th in the final. Pretty good overall

Tell me how · 07-08-2020 5:21am

Mysterypunter wrote: »

He won the Henley single sculls 3 years succession 1973-75, silver in the world championship in England, 1975, broke the world record in the Olympic semi final in Montreal, and unlucky 4th in the final. Pretty good overall

I'm not saying he was no good, but, if I was picking a rower, I'd pick Paul O'Donovan.
4 World Championship Gold beats 3 x Henleys and 1 Worlds Silver and then he has the Olympic Silver also.

Sean broke the world record at 2000M with a 6.52.46, Paul went 4 seconds faster.

Mysterypunter · 07-08-2020 5:27am

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm not saying he was no good, but, if I was picking a rower, I'd pick Paul O'Donovan.
4 World Championship Gold beat Henleys and then he has the Olympic Silver also.

Sean broke the world record at 2000M with a 6.52.46, Paul went 4 seconds faster.

But would the equipment used and the updated technology have anything to do with faster times? I tend to agree on overall records, but it's the competing against cheats bit that I would have in Sean's favour, the East Germans were schooled in it, state sponsored cheating. One thing I would say is that physically demanding sports should earn extra merit, I wouldn't be picking anyone who played darts or snooker. Rowing, especially at crunch time is technically and physically tough, whereas some sports don't require much physical effort, but probably as much skill.

Tell me how · 07-08-2020 2:51pm

Mysterypunter wrote: »

One thing I would say is that physically demanding sports should earn extra merit, I wouldn't be picking anyone who played darts or snooker. Rowing, especially at crunch time is technically and physically tough, whereas some sports don't require much physical effort, but probably as much skill.

This is definitely a debate in and of itself. Some could argue that darts players and snooker players compete in a more challenging environment because Mental pressures can be greater when you are competing at one moment on your own, they can't use physical strength to push through while practically keeping their eyes shut to drown out distractions.

It could be argued that rowing is mostly just about muscle memory and fitness but that the core skill is less obvious than hitting a triple 20 3 times in a row.

Or, look at field sports, such as hurling. Balancing a ball on a stick, striking it while on the run at a target all require skill, but that sport also requires significant physical strength, and maybe more athleticism than say rowing (I'm saying maybe here, I'm not suggesting rowers aren't athletic at all), but their environment is quite static while competing when compared to other sports.

bike2wkr · 02-10-2020 6:45pm

Roy Keane
Sonia o Sullivan
Eamonn Coughlan
John Giles
Brian o Driscoll
Paul O Connell
John Treacy
Paul O Donovan rower
Roche/Kelly maybe

Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

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Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? READ OP