Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Options
1…6869717374…162

Comments

  • Options
    #2102
    TallGlass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I'd really have to hope Dublin Bus drivers are not that selfish or petty.

    In all fairness, the DB drivers have a point. I wouldn't accept a drop in my wages for doing the same job, why should anyone else?

    Plus I can't see DB drivers driving GA buses, it's a legal minefield.


  • Options
    #2103
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    TallGlass wrote: »
    In all fairness, the DB drivers have a point. I wouldn't accept a drop in my wages for doing the same job, why should anyone else?

    Plus I can't see DB drivers driving GA buses, it's a legal minefield.


    That's not what the poster said though, they said that Dublin Bus would be running the routes, so the drivers would be getting the same wage they usually do, and it would be DB buses too. They'd just be delaying the transfer to GA. Again, this is going by what Dermot O'Le---I mean mrs.may said there.


  • Options
    #2104
    n!ghtmancometh
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭n!ghtmancometh


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I'd really have to hope Dublin Bus drivers are not that selfish or petty.

    How naive are you? Why should they help a private company (incidentally a private company driving down their wages and t+c's) out of the goodness of their hearts? Would you do similar in your line of work? My bollocks you would.


  • Options
    #2105
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    n!ghtmancometh wrote: »
    How naive are you? Why should they help a private company (incidentally a private company driving down their wages and t+c's) out of the goodness of their hearts? Would you do similar in your line of work? My bollocks you would.


    It's not out of the goodness of their hearts though, they're getting paid for it! For doing their jobs!


    By your logic, Dublin Bus drivers should immediately stop working any of the routes which are being transferred to GoAhead.


  • Options
    #2106
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Qrt


    MJohnston wrote: »
    It's not out of the goodness of their hearts though, they're getting paid for it! For doing their jobs!


    By your logic, Dublin Bus drivers should immediately stop working any of the routes which are being transferred to GoAhead.

    If Go-Ahead can't run the routes when they're supposed to, then that's their issue. In my eyes DB have nothing to do with it once the handover date is reached.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2107
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Qrt wrote: »
    If Go-Ahead can't run the routes when they're supposed to, then that's their issue. In my eyes DB have nothing to do with it once the handover date is reached.

    Yeah but that's not the situation that was proposed by mrs.may, who said that Dublin Bus (the company) will handle the routes until GA take them over, but that the Dublin Bus drivers will refuse to run them.

    If DB the company was refusing to have anything to do with it, fair enough, but the drivers deciding this for themselves? Not great.


  • Options
    #2108
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Qrt wrote: »
    If Go-Ahead can't run the routes when they're supposed to, then that's their issue. In my eyes DB have nothing to do with it once the handover date is reached.

    Continuity of service is more important than the egos of a few DB workers.

    Extending existing contracts during handover periods is fairly standard during tenders of this size, it’ll work both ways when/if DB win routes back from the competition.


  • Options
    #2109
    vectorvictor
    Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭vectorvictor


    MJohnston wrote: »
    It's not out of the goodness of their hearts though, they're getting paid for it! For doing their jobs!


    By your logic, Dublin Bus drivers should immediately stop working any of the routes which are being transferred to GoAhead.

    It's the ingrained culture. Over time DB drivers have been conditioned to think that their role is something more than to show up at the appointed time and drive the bus they are told to drive for which they will be paid. That's it, that's their job. The background noise has absolutely nothing to do with them, they serve one function, drive the bloody bus.

    Operators like Goahead will drive down terms and conditions and bring the job back to what it actually is. That can only be a positive step but is a big lump to take for a cohort of employees who have been wrapped in a blanket of cotton wool to think that the things they try to get involved in are any of their business.

    No private operator would accept employee expectation like those at DB. The NTA know it can never be changed and have taken the second best step by leaving them in a corner to fight among themselves while operators and employees living in the real world get on with transporting the commuters of the city.


  • Options
    #2110
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I'm nearly sure the poster that was just on here is a re reg account. IIRC he/she was predicting that there would be widespread discontent when the new 145 bill was introduced it never materialised. I take any information from that account or any account that appears to be linked to it with a pinch of salt.


  • Options
    #2111
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,285 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I'm sure the poster that was just on here is a re reg account. IIRC he/she was predicting that there would be widespread discontent when the new 145 bill was introduced it never materialised. I take any information from that account or any account that appears to be linked to it with a pinch of salt.
    Yes a regular re-reg who only signs up to stir things up. I've deleted all their posts and any quoting them


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2112
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    vectorvictor wrote: »
    It's the ingrained culture.

    there is no such culture.
    vectorvictor wrote: »
    Over time DB drivers have been conditioned to think that their role is something more than to show up at the appointed time and drive the bus they are told to drive for which they will be paid. That's it, that's their job. The background noise has absolutely nothing to do with them, they serve one function, drive the bloody bus.

    they have been conditioned to believe no such thing. it's people like some on here who are expecting them to be more then what they are. the drivers simply want to get on with driving the bus. and that is what they are doing.
    vectorvictor wrote: »
    Operators like Goahead will drive down terms and conditions and bring the job back to what it actually is.

    dublin bus already have the job at what it is, and the terms and conditions needed to insure that the job can be a viable long term career

    vectorvictor wrote: »
    That can only be a positive step but is a big lump to take for a cohort of employees who have been wrapped in a blanket of cotton wool to think that the things they try to get involved in are any of their business.

    in my experience, it's a positive step for those who believe either, people they see as beneeth them, or people who they think they should be getting more then, should not be on a good wage. there are no employees in dublin bus who are, or have been wrapped in a blanket of cotton wool, and no employees think that the things they try to get involved in are any of their business, they know that it's their business, because it is their business, as it potentially effects them.
    vectorvictor wrote: »
    No private operator would accept employee expectation like those at DB.

    they will, and they are going to.
    vectorvictor wrote: »
    The NTA know it can never be changed and have taken the second best step by leaving them in a corner to fight among themselves while operators and employees living in the real world get on with transporting the commuters of the city.

    dublin bus and it's employees live in the real world. the terms and conditions hard faught for by the employees of that company are not the NTA'S business or concern. unless you are going to tell me that driving down terms and conditions is possibly one of the aspects of what this tendering is about? which if so, my opinion is certainly that may be one possibility. however, it's not going to succeed on that score, because similar to dublin bus terms and conditions will be coming to any of the other tendered operators who may replace dublin bus on routes. if not now, then certainly down the line.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #2113
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    TallGlass wrote: »
    In all fairness, the DB drivers have a point. I wouldn't accept a drop in my wages for doing the same job, why should anyone else?

    Plus I can't see DB drivers driving GA buses, it's a legal minefield.

    There is no cold hard evidence that they will be getting a drop in pay. No DB drivers have to switch over to GA and even if they did TUPE would more than likely mean they would still be getting the same wages and terms and conditions.

    It appears to me that the NBRU are taking their anti GAI stance for ideological reasons rather then looking at the bigger picture and looking out for their members terms and conditions. I'm not a big SIPTU fan but it appears they are taking a more progressive approach to Bus Connects and Go-Ahead.


  • Options
    #2114
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Tupe only works for a year.

    New contracts after this.


  • Options
    #2115
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Tupe only works for a year.

    New contracts after this.

    That’s not true.

    Contracts can be improved after 1 year, not made worse.


  • Options
    #2116
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    amcalester wrote: »
    That’s not true.

    It is as that's the agreement.

    Check it out if ya like but that's the stance that's been given out.


  • Options
    #2117
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    It is as that's the agreement.

    Check it out if ya like but that's the stance that's been given out.

    That's coming from union by the way.


  • Options
    #2118
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    It is as that's the agreement.

    Check it out if ya like but that's the stance that's been given out.

    I hit submit to soon.

    Contracts can be renegotiated after 1 year but overall the new contract has to an improvement on the old one, so it’s a non issue.


  • Options
    #2119
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    It is as that's the agreement.

    Check it out if ya like but that's the stance that's been given out.

    TUPE is a lot more complex and unions could should be allowed on board to work something out which does not make drivers wages, terms and conditions any worse it can be done.

    The NBRU seem to be taking a stance of absolutely no tendering at all under any circumstances even if drivers wages, terms and conditions remain the same. My guess is as to the reason for this is either because of ideological reasons similar to their opposition to Bus Connects and siding with the likes of PBP or the threat to the union which this poses not workers rights but the threat to the unions future.

    We have already seen that with Transdev and Go-Ahead both of whom have closed shop agreements with SIPTU. Any other future entrants will likely have similar agreements with a larger more comercially oriented union like SIPTU.


  • Options
    #2120
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    TUPE is a lot more complex and unions could should be allowed on board to work something out which does not make drivers wages, terms and conditions any worse it can be done.

    The NBRU seem to be taking a stance of absolutely no tendering at all under any circumstances even if drivers wages, terms and conditions remain the same. My guess is as to the reason for this is either because of ideological reasons similar to their opposition to Bus Connects and siding with the likes of PBP or the threat to the union which this poses not workers rights but the threat to the unions future.

    We have already seen that with Transdev and Go-Ahead both of whom have closed shop agreements with SIPTU. Any other future entrants will likely have similar agreements with a larger more comercially oriented union like SIPTU.


    I was thinking the same, NBRU are looking after their own interests here.

    It could be that they prefer to deal with DB instead of a private operator.

    Pure speculation on my part obviously.


  • Options
    #2121
    Here we go
    Registered Users Posts: 286 ✭✭Here we go


    Seems to be some mix up with tests started my first week and Iv a test next week but some there 6 weeks and have no date for one


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2122
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Tupe only works for a year.

    New contracts after this.
    punisher5112 wrote: »
    It is as that's the agreement.

    Check it out if ya like but that's the stance that's been given out.
    punisher5112 wrote: »
    That's coming from union by the way.

    TUPE absolutely does not last one year. If your union is stating that then they are talking complete rubbish, there is no time limit as I already stated previously here. TUPE protects all your terms and conditions (with the exception of pensions) for the entirety of your employment.

    And that's coming from me, someone with 15 years experience in industrial relations/employment law who specialises in TUPE amongst other things.


  • Options
    #2123
    n!ghtmancometh
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭n!ghtmancometh


    MJohnston wrote: »
    It's not out of the goodness of their hearts though, they're getting paid for it! For doing their jobs!


    By your logic, Dublin Bus drivers should immediately stop working any of the routes which are being transferred to GoAhead.

    Routes are transferred to GA. GA (private company paying drivers less, worse OT &, T+C's) are getting paid for operating said routes. GA can't operate these said routes and need DB drivers. Why would you, a DB driver, help GA out? you would be acting against your own interests as a bus driver/employee.


  • Options
    #2124
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    dashcamdanny wrote: »
    What? You come out with some amount of scutter. :rolleyes: What do you think?

    I would think it wouldn't matter, but then again I wouldn't have thought Go-Ahead being a British company would have mattered in the slightest either...


  • Options
    #2125
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    n!ghtmancometh wrote: »
    Routes are transferred to GA. GA (private company paying drivers less, worse OT &, T+C's) are getting paid for operating said routes. GA can't operate these said routes and need DB drivers. Why would you, a DB driver, help GA out? you would be acting against your own interests as a bus driver/employee.

    It's quite simple.

    If GAI were unable to commence operations as contracted,other than due to a force majure situation,then it would be subject to whatever penalty clauses are built into the contract.

    (Coincidentally,another compelling reason for the NTA to IMMEDIATELY place the GAI PSO contract in the Public Domain)

    In this specific incidence,"You" as a Dublin Bus driver,would not "be helping GAI out",but you would definitely be helping your employer,Dublin Bus,to prosper,as it would not be operating these routes on a charitable basis,it would be a negotiated commercial contract,outside the scope of the BMO agreement.

    "You",as a Dublin Bus driver would be driving for Dublin Bus,under your existing Dublin Bus T's & C's,on a route paid for by the NTA.

    All PSO routes are the responsibility of the NTA to source,so,if Dublin Bus had difficulty in cooperating,then the NTA is free to seek other operators who can.

    (Translink's role in the Papal Visit springs to mind ;) )

    The other option open to the NTA,is to set up it's own operating arm,as Transport for London did with East Thames Buses from 1999 until 2009,before selling the company to,oddly enough,the Go Ahead Group. :eek:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Options
    #2126
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,300 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    On the talk of Dublin Bus drivers helping out GAI; I don't think should happen here. If Dublin Bus drivers were allocated new routes after their old routes switched to GAI; they would legally have no obligation to help GAI out. It would amount to a conflict of interest on Dublin Bus's part if they were apparently allowed to re drive their old routes with GAI.

    The Dublin Bus drivers in question would realistically be already out driving on their new allocated Dublin Bus routes when they are given expanded service for it's customers. It would be near impossible to find spare Dublin Bus drivers to help out GAI because not every driver is out on the road at the same time while working with Dublin Bus. People here are not taking into account their work & life balance routines like taking breaks from their shift or taking holidays from the company etc.

    It is not practical to allow Dublin Bus drivers to take up this extra work. If their employment contract says that they have to do work paid for by the state with Dublin Bus; they would have no choice but to stay in the company to avoid unnecessary trouble unless they resign from the company & and work with GAI. This matter entirely rests with drivers from Dublin Bus & management as they have to abide by their rules in their contract with the NTA if they want to avoid conflict of interests with their own drivers employment T&C's.


  • Options
    #2127
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    n!ghtmancometh wrote: »
    Routes are transferred to GA. GA (private company paying drivers less, worse OT &, T+C's) are getting paid for operating said routes. GA can't operate these said routes and need DB drivers. Why would you, a DB driver, help GA out? you would be acting against your own interests as a bus driver/employee.


    But that's not what the poster I originally replied to was suggesting - they were saying that Dublin Bus AS A COMPANY would be continuing to operate the routes with an extension of contract. It would not be a case of DB drivers working for or helping out GA, they'd be working for Dublin Bus.



    So, unless you have different info, you're arguing with a point that I'm not making.


  • Options
    #2128
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    It's not uncommon for business transferring from one provider to another to go behind the planned timelines. It's usually a consideration during transition phases. I'd expect this is already factored in.


  • Options
    #2129
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    n!ghtmancometh wrote: »
    Routes are transferred to GA. GA (private company paying drivers less, worse OT &, T+C's) are getting paid for operating said routes. GA can't operate these said routes and need DB drivers. Why would you, a DB driver, help GA out? you would be acting against your own interests as a bus driver/employee.

    Aren't we told that the whole idea of public companies and one of the things that makes the likes of Dublin Bus better than private companies, is the fact that they will put the public first and foremost, before any of their own interests? I see a lot of talk about staff but little about customers here?

    Personally I would think it wouldn't help Dublin Bus if staff did not comply, it would just make DB and their staff seem un-cooperative and if the NTA feel that the status quo are not cooperating and this has an effect on the public, then it just makes it even more likely that they'll put more routes out to tender.

    I understand why some people feel the way they do and have the opinion that they do, but DB getting into the NTA's bad books is not going to help them long term. Normally the reason people contract things out, is because they cannot get what they are looking for, or the level of co-operation needed with their existing method.


  • Options
    #2130
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    I would like to remind people that the idea of Go-Ahead not being able to take up the current DB routes which they have won the tender for on time is complete speculation there is no evidence to back it up.

    As for DB drivers driving for Go-Ahead it won't happen they will be continuing to drive DB buses if the changeover was to be delayed in the same manner they are doing so now on routes which are due to be tendered out to Go-Ahead. It won't happen where DB bus drivers will be driving Go-Ahead buses out of Ballymount depot.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #2131
    Stevek101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    The whole operation has ran relativity smoothly. I remember it was claimed they would never be able to get the staff but in fact the job offers were over subscribed.

    That's not to say there hasn't been issues. Such as the timetable being issued late, the whole livery disaster and RTPI. I would point out those are issues on the NTA's side. It'd be safe to assume these all relate to staffing issues there.

    To the end user the service is running well the only thing that is missing is RTPI which will be rectified shortly. GoAhead have done everything to ensure this service is running and I have no doubt there will be no issues on their side over the coming weeks.

    The staff in DB have voted on the suggested options post route transfer. So the only issue we are likely to see is on DB's side. Bear in mind a pay claim is also expected to be issued shortly. I'd say its fairly likely we will see strike action and a long delay in expected fleet expansion with GoAhead running as normal. It won't look good when the direct award comes up for discussion in 2019 especially if the programme for government is extended by two years.


Advertisement