Booklet of title - crucial in a house purchase or not so much anymore?

andybookie · 03-08-2018 4:22pm #1

We have been advised by our solicitor that there is no 'Booklet of Title' for our impending house purchase.
The solicitor has advised that everything else in order and we can legally go ahead and purchase the house but if we come to sell in the future, the ease of the sell will depend on the importance the buyers have on obtaining the 'Booklet of Title'.
The solicitor has been great throughout but we are confused about how crucial these documents are without the knowledge that comes with a law degree.
I sold a property in the UK recently and it seemed that the physical 'deeds' (which are to me, the closest match to documentation, I can think of) are not necessary in a sale nowadays and in fact were surprised I still had them.
It would be great to get an idea of the perception of the importance of the 'Booklet of Title' from people with more legal knowledge to me and my wife.
Buying a first family home is worth doing right, so any advice will be much obliged.
Thanks

Claw Hammer · 03-08-2018 4:32pm

andybookie wrote: »

We have been advised by our solicitor that there is not 'Booklet of Purchase' for our impending house purchase.
The solicitor has advised that everything else in order and we can legally go ahead and purchase the house but if we come to sell in the future, the ease of the sell will depend on the importance the buyers have on obtaining the 'Booklet of Purchase'.
The solicitor has been great throughout but we are confused about how crucial these documents are without the knowledge that comes with a law degree.
I sold a property in the UK recently and it seemed that the physical 'deeds' (which are to me, the closest match to documentation, I can think of) are not necessary in a sale nowadays and in fact were surprised I still had them.
It would be great to get an idea of the perception of the importance of the 'Booklet of Title' from people with more legal knowledge to me and my wife.
Buying a first family home is worth doing right, so any advice will be much obliged.
Thanks

are you the guy that posted the same question in the Accommodation & Property Forum?

andybookie · 03-08-2018 4:38pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

are you the guy that posted the same question in the Accommodation & Property Forum?

Yes, I didn't find this forum first time around. The only reply there was that a 'booklet of title' was proof of legal ownership, which I have found out since is incorrect (I think this is more land registry title). Hence I wanted to consult a more legal minded forum.

Thanks

Stanford · 03-08-2018 4:39pm

Are you buying a Local Authority house?

andybookie · 03-08-2018 4:41pm

Stanford wrote: »

Are you buying a Local Authority house?

That doesn't ring any bells with me. We are a straight forward second time purchaser with no local authority assistance, if that helps.

The property was built in 1992, with one careful owner since.

Any attempts to find the booklet of title have been fruitless.

Thanks

Stanford · 03-08-2018 4:45pm

I have never heard of a 'Booklet of Purchase",

After signing the contract and before the completion date of the sale, your solicitor raises some general queries about the property with the seller's solicitor. Requisitions on Title are a standard set of questions relating to the sale of a property that deal with such things as whether fixtures and fittings are included in the sale.

When your solicitor gets a satisfactory reply to Requisitions on Title, a Deed of Conveyance is drafted by him or her and approved by the seller's solicitor.

Your solicitor makes arrangements for searches to be made against the seller to ensure that there are no judgements lying against the seller (for example, bankruptcy or sheriffs' searches). Your solicitor should also conduct a search where the title to the property is held (either in the Land Registry or the Registry of Deeds) to ensure that there is nothing adverse attaching to the property, for example, an outstanding mortgage.

Once the Deed of Conveyance is approved by the seller's solicitor, your solicitor will contact your mortgage provider to request the issue of the approved loan cheque. This is the remaining balance of the purchase price. It is paid to the seller's solicitor and all documentation, and keys to the premises are handed over to your solicitor. It is rare now to have physical title deeds as these are in the Land Registry and your Solicitor will file a Deed of Transfer which effectively transfers ownership to the new purchasers.

andybookie · 03-08-2018 4:49pm

Stanford wrote: »

I have never heard of a 'Booklet of Purchase",

After signing the contract and before the completion date of the sale, your solicitor raises some general queries about the property with the seller's solicitor. Requisitions on Title are a standard set of questions relating to the sale of a property that deal with such things as whether fixtures and fittings are included in the sale.

When your solicitor gets a satisfactory reply to Requisitions on Title, a Deed of Conveyance is drafted by him or her and approved by the seller's solicitor.

Your solicitor makes arrangements for searches to be made against the seller to ensure that there are no judgements lying against the seller (for example, bankruptcy or sheriffs' searches). Your solicitor should also conduct a search where the title to the property is held (either in the Land Registry or the Registry of Deeds) to ensure that there is nothing adverse attaching to the property, for example, an outstanding mortgage.

Once the Deed of Conveyance is approved by the seller's solicitor, your solicitor will contact your mortgage provider to request the issue of the approved loan cheque. This is the remaining balance of the purchase price. It is paid to the seller's solicitor and all documentation, and keys to the premises are handed over to your solicitor. It is rare now to have physical title deeds as these are in the Land Registry and your Solicitor will file a Deed of Transfer which effectively transfers ownership to the new purchasers.

Sorry I corrected the name in the original post. It is called the 'booklet of title', we have yet to sign for the house.
Thanks

Stanford · 03-08-2018 4:54pm

I still haven't heard it it and I would be loath to proceed without advice from your Solicitor as to what such a booklet is expected to contain....caveat emptor

andybookie · 03-08-2018 5:01pm

Stanford wrote: »

I still haven't heard it it and I would be loath to proceed without advice from your Solicitor as to what such a booklet is expected to contain....caveat emptor

Yeah I found it is not a common term used when I was researching on the Internet.
My perception of it is basically all the physical paperwork involved in house purchase/sale.
Nowadays it is all electronic so we do not need it to legally make the purchase.
It is only the perceived value of it from the next purchaser.

Maybe I can put it another way. Nowadays in the purchase of a house, if everything is legally in place, do you need the physical title or deeds? Or is it normal now to purchase a house with little to no legal documentation of ownership?

I'm finding this all a little confusing.

Thanks for your help.

juke · 03-08-2018 5:08pm

In Irish terms, generally, a Booklet of Title is a copy of title deeds, planning documents etc. for a larger site, which is subsequently subdivided unto a housing estate.

It is prepared by the developer's solicitors and one would accompany the deeds for each house.

They get lost - not uncommon. Sometimes, the developer's solicitors can provide a copy, sometimes a neighbour.

These days, though, with compulsory registration in the Land Registry, there's not likely to be much in it that is relevant today or can't be reproduced.

Ask your solicitor what s/he thinks is in it that would be important.

Stanford · 03-08-2018 5:09pm

As you say it is an old term but basically refers to the various documentation need to establish title, the concept of exchanging physical deeds to almost extinct as change of title is now registered in either the Land Registry or Property Registration Authority. FYI the Law Society frowns on the new trend to provide these documents electronically (e.g. on CD) and urges purchasers to have hard copy documents:

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Solicitors/Practising/Practice-Notes/Booklets-of-Land-Registry-Title-in-CD-ROM-for-New-Homes/#.W2R8fShKi70

I certainly would prefer hard copy documents and an electronic copy for ease of filing.

andybookie · 06-08-2018 4:34pm

Stanford wrote: »

As you say it is an old term but basically refers to the various documentation need to establish title, the concept of exchanging physical deeds to almost extinct as change of title is now registered in either the Land Registry or Property Registration Authority. FYI the Law Society frowns on the new trend to provide these documents electronically (e.g. on CD) and urges purchasers to have hard copy documents:

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Solicitors/Practising/Practice-Notes/Booklets-of-Land-Registry-Title-in-CD-ROM-for-New-Homes/#.W2R8fShKi70

I certainly would prefer hard copy documents and an electronic copy for ease of filing.

Thanks
It is very frustrating as our solicitor is saying you can go ahead and complete the sale legally but family members are warning us not to saying that if the booklet of title is out there, then the sellers family members by having them can lay claim to the property, which I think is absurd.

So yeah, solicitor saying go ahead and family saying no. Also the family are advising to go see an old family solicitor (old by years and acquaintance). I would assume a solicitor old in his years would also advise against buying without physical copies of title.

Even more annoying is that when I ask the family, which documents they percieve to be important, they obviously don't know - so we are dealing with people with strong opinions based on little knowledge.

In my mind, I am paying a solicitor to trust him and if he said we can legally buy the property then that should be that.

The only problem would come by selling the property in the future to buyers who are uncomfortable with buying without physical booklet of title - which is ultimately us right now. So we are our own problem.

Advice again welcome.

Peregrinus · 07-08-2018 3:06am

Your family members are wrong. Even if a printed book of title exists and someone has a copy, mere possession of the book doesn't give him any basis to claim that he owns the property.

The point of the book of title was to show that the person who is selling the land has the right to sell it to you. Large parts of what is now suburban Dublin (and other cities) were originally estates that were farmed. Over time, as the city expanded, they were subdivided, developed and sold off for housing. A single farming property might be subdivided into hundreds of smaller house sites.

Normally, when you sold land, you handed on the title deeds to the purchaser. But, obviously, when you subdivide a large property into hundreds of small properties and sell them off, you can't do that. So what the estate-owners would do is print off copies of the title documents, and give a set of printed copies (the "book of title") to each purchaser, together with a certificate to say that these were accurate copies of the title deeds held by the vendor. As the property is sold and resold, from owner to owner, the book of title gets passed on.

Right. The need for much of this passes when property title gets registered in the Land Registry. The old books of title still exist and still mostly get passed on, but they no longer have the same importance. If Bill is selling you his house, you no longer need to verify that he bought it from Jack, who bought it from Mary, who bought it from Joe, who bought it from the Pembroke Estate Company, who had the right to sell it because, look, here's a book with all their title deeds in it. If the property is registered to Bill at the Land Registry, then you know Bill is the owner and can sell it to you.

So, at some point the booklet of title for this house has been lost, or mislaid, or thrown away - because it's no longer needed. If your solicitor is happy that you can buy the house, then he's probably right. If somebody else has the book of title and produces it, it doesn't prove that they own the property, or have any claim to it. All it proves is that back in 1912 (or whenever) the Pembroke Estate Company (or whoever) owned the property and had the right to sell it to whoever bought it in 1912.

randomrb · 07-08-2018 9:32am

I would assume a solicitor old in his years would also advise against buying without physical copies of title.

The names can be confusing but a booklet of title actually contains only supporting documents to the title itself. Most properties are registered with the property registration authority and your title is the folio with your name on it.

The supporting documents are things like NPPR discharges LPT printouts, Planning permission compliance etc these things are usually in the Booklet of title but if your solicitor has given you the go ahead to buy you already have these documents.

You may also be able to get a copy of the booklet of title from the original solicitor who dealt with the property after development

andybookie · 09-08-2018 3:36pm

randomrb wrote: »

I would assume a solicitor old in his years would also advise against buying without physical copies of title.

The names can be confusing but a booklet of title actually contains only supporting documents to the title itself. Most properties are registered with the property registration authority and your title is the folio with your name on it.

The supporting documents are things like NPPR discharges LPT printouts, Planning permission compliance etc these things are usually in the Booklet of title but if your solicitor has given you the go ahead to buy you already have these documents.

You may also be able to get a copy of the booklet of title from the original solicitor who dealt with the property after development

We have been given the go ahead from the solicitor to buy the property but he has told us to 'proceed with caution'. This has obviously made us very uncomfortable in taking this risk.
We are now in a position where we are chasing the Booklet of Title and specifically trying to find out whether it existed or not.
Is there anyway to prove (apart from confirmation from the original solicitors or builders) that there was never a Booklet of Title, by Land Registry map or anything?

randomrb · 09-08-2018 3:40pm

andybookie wrote: »

We have been given the go ahead from the solicitor to buy the property but he has told us to 'proceed with caution'. This has obviously made us very uncomfortable in taking this risk.
We are now in a position where we are chasing the Booklet of Title and specifically trying to find out whether it existed or not.
Is there anyway to prove (apart from confirmation from the original solicitors or builders) that there was never a Booklet of Title, by Land Registry map or anything?

Unfortunately no, the booklet of title is not required for anything specific and is not recorded anywhere. If it is part of an estate or apartment block one of you future neighbours may know.

andybookie · 09-08-2018 3:49pm

randomrb wrote: »

Unfortunately no, the booklet of title is not required for anything specific and is not recorded anywhere. If it is part of an estate or apartment block one of you future neighbours may know.

So we are running around in circles looking for documents that probably don't exist, that likely aren't even necessary to purchase the house and that nobody knows what they are even if they once did exist, just because of their perceived importance that a solicitor in the future might request them.

It is crazy.

Pat Mustard · 09-08-2018 6:48pm

andybookie wrote: »

if we come to sell in the future, the ease of the sell will depend on the importance the buyers have on obtaining the 'Booklet of Title'.

The solicitor has been great throughout but we are confused about how crucial these documents are without the knowledge that comes with a law degree.

Did you ask the solicitor what is missing from your title documents and whether those documents are essential or not. Ask the solicitor to clarify. That's his job.

If the documents in the Booklet of Title are required, ask why aren't they there, why aren't you getting them and why is it okay to proceed without them.

If these documents are not required, ask him why these documents are being contemplated at all. If some pedant looks for something irrelevant in future, surely he can be told where to go and why. There are loads of people who use the kitchen sink approach to various aspects of law and legal procedure. These people can be refused.

Hannibal_Smith · 09-08-2018 7:02pm

It depends whether your title is Land Registry or Registry if Deeds, what type of title it is and how old your title is.

For example if your root of Title is a Lease or Fee Farm Grant, a certified copy of which is in the BOT, it would be an issue because there would be a term set out in a Lease and conditions set out in both the Lease and the Fee Farm Grant. You need to see these.

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if you've clarified any of this. But I'm assuming there was a sale from a developer at some stage of there's a BOT. If your title is unregistered and the sale from the developer to the first individual owner is less than 15 years ago, it would again be important because your chain of title must go back 15 years. So there might be a deed in the BOT that should be more appropriately be relied on.

It could also depend on the planning situation. Are there planning documents, fire safety certs etc in the BOT that haven't been provided. They can mostly be reproduced from local authorities, though there are some times when they have been destroyed.

Other than the above generally the booklet of title will mainly have draft documents in it. If I had evidence of the root of title, going back 15 years with all family home declarations etc where necessary, copies of planning and original/certified copies of all drafts that would have been contained in the BOT, I wouldn't certify title over, it just because it want there.

Mr. Incognito · 10-08-2018 9:34am

Hi there

This is legal advice and you have a solicitor but in general if you can show 12 years good title there shouldnt be an issue.

If your property is registered land then the booklet of title is irrelevant.

If your property is unregistered land then you will require title documents to register it.

It is very unlikely, if there is a booklet of title that it is unregistered land.

If it is a lease and not freehold then you will need the head lease at a minimum to see what covenants it contains.

If the booklet of tilte that is missing is the head lease then I probably would tell my solicitor to get a copy. There would be other apartments sold there. You might have to pay a fee but generally the developers solicitor keeps a lot of the booklets of title.

Under GDPR though most of these are being shredded.

but family members are warning us not to saying that if the booklet of title is out there, then the sellers family members by having them can lay claim to the property, which I think is absurd.

Dont listen to unqualified people regarding legal advice. Dont even listen to this internet forum. Listen to your solicitor who is qualified, and insured in case he gives you incorrect advice.

andybookie · 10-08-2018 9:45am

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Did you ask the solicitor what is missing from your title documents and whether those documents are essential or not. Ask the solicitor to clarify. That's his job.

If the documents in the Booklet of Title are required, ask why aren't they there, why aren't you getting them and why is it okay to proceed without them.

If these documents are not required, ask him why these documents are being contemplated at all. If some pedant looks for something irrelevant in future, surely he can be told where to go and why. There are loads of people who use the kitchen sink approach to various aspects of law and legal procedure. These people can be refused.

You have captured my frustration. in this reply.
1. We did as what was missing and the solicitor said he didn't know (in my mind I think of it like a log book for a car).
2. Even though he doesn't know, he knows they are not essential for the sale. He keeps saying though, 'proceed with caution'.
3. We have asked him why are these documents been contemplated at all, and he said, if a future buyer was to ask for them, there may be a problem.

JimsAlterEgo · 10-08-2018 10:15am

andybookie wrote: »

You have captured my frustration. in this reply.
1. We did as what was missing and the solicitor said he didn't know (in my mind I think of it like a log book for a car).
2. Even though he doesn't know, he knows they are not essential for the sale. He keeps saying though, 'proceed with caution'.
3. We have asked him why are these documents been contemplated at all, and he said, if a future buyer was to ask for them, there may be a problem.

is this your normal solicitor or one experienced in conveyancing? Sounds like you might need a new one.

andybookie · 10-08-2018 10:21am

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

is this your normal solicitor or one experienced in conveyancing? Sounds like you might need a new one.

Just for conveyancing, I don't have a normal solicitor. I am not exactly litigious, i'm just an average paddy.

randomrb · 10-08-2018 10:39am

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

is this your normal solicitor or one experienced in conveyancing? Sounds like you might need a new one.

Most solicitors should be able to do conveyancing, its one of the core parts of the training and the staple of most firms unless they are specialised.

In saying that he should be able to tell you if there are documents missing, ie either there is something missing and he shouldnt be telling you to buy or there isn't something missing and the transaction can go ahead

BarryD2 · 10-08-2018 11:19am

Purchased a rural house in the 1990s. We received a collection of documents from our solicitor a couple of months after the sale IIRC. These include copies of land registry map and file, details of various searches, copy of planning permission for an extension etc. I presume this is probably what you refer to as a 'booklet of title'. As far as I can see, they are useful to have for your own records but there's nothing in them that couldn't be established with a little legwork. Confirmation of the registration of your name in the relevant land registry folio file is I think the most important.

andybookie · 10-08-2018 12:08pm

I spoke to another solicitor (just a 5 min chat) to ask for a following consultation.
He showed me https://www.landdirect.ie/.

The building is No.1.
https://imgur.com/pHQaj66
He said as it has a full red border the full tile can be proved with the Land Registry.
The others without a red border or partial red border i.e. No's.3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 would need both Land Registry and Booklet of Title to fully prove title.
Does this sound like a good summary to all conveyancing solicitors, reading this?

Thanks

randomrb · 10-08-2018 12:12pm

andybookie wrote: »

I spoke to another solicitor (just a 5 min chat) to ask for a following consultation.
He showed me https://www.landdirect.ie/.

The building is No.1.
https://imgur.com/pHQaj66
He said as it has a full red border the full tile can be proved with the Land Registry.
The others without a red border or partial red border i.e. No's.3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 would need both Land Registry and Booklet of Title to fully prove title.
Does this sound like a good summary to all conveyancing solicitors, reading this?

Thanks

Roughly yes, that does prove your ownership 100% however there are other documents you need in a property transaction ie NPPR cert, LPT printout, Planning permission compliance etc. However if you are buying the house you should get all that anyway and won't need the booklet of title

andybookie · 10-08-2018 12:17pm

These are the notifications on this property on the Land Registry interface

https://imgur.com/ODgoX8O
https://imgur.com/aqSblM0
https://imgur.com/nlneJd4

Still no need for Booklet of Title?

Thanks

randomrb · 10-08-2018 12:26pm

andybookie wrote: »

These are the notifications on this property on the Land Registry interface

https://imgur.com/ODgoX8O
https://imgur.com/aqSblM0
https://imgur.com/nlneJd4

Still no need for Booklet of Title?

Thanks

Thats a standard disclaimer nothing to be worried about

BarryD2 · 10-08-2018 1:41pm

andybookie wrote: »

I spoke to another solicitor (just a 5 min chat) to ask for a following consultation.
He showed me https://www.landdirect.ie/.

The building is No.1.
https://imgur.com/pHQaj66
He said as it has a full red border the full tile can be proved with the Land Registry.
The others without a red border or partial red border i.e. No's.3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 would need both Land Registry and Booklet of Title to fully prove title.
Does this sound like a good summary to all conveyancing solicitors, reading this?

Thanks

In a previous job, I worked in a Dublin architects office which dealt in housing developments like this. We used to do an 'as built' survey once the units were built and each property was measured. Each sale then had an individual map prepared with area outlined in red etc. The field measurements in metres/ cms were written in for the principle boundaries, so there was no doubt as to scale etc. This is/was good practice.

andybookie · 14-08-2018 4:34pm

Hi all, thank you for everyone's advice.
I think we determined in this thread that the Booklet of Title was in fact not necessary for the purchase of the property (as it was fully Land Registered) but we were determined to find out of it ever existed and if so what happened to it.
Thankfully we found out from the builders that it never existed and therefore we can proceed with the sale.

Thanks again.
Much appreciated.

Booklet of title - crucial in a house purchase or not so much anymore?

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