Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? READ OP

Fr D Maugire · 30-07-2020 10:46am

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

LOL at the Roy Keane votes. He never played in a European Cup final. He played in one World Cup and Phil Babb had a better tournament.

Giles, Brady, Whelan all outshone him on the European/World stage.

At least there is a good case for Sonia O'Sullivan.

Katie Taylor? Nah, that's like saying Joey Tribbiani is the greatest Italian-American sportsperson of all time for being the Fireball Champion of the World for 25 years when he only had to beat Chandler.

Cycling is too tainted.

Harrington in with a shout.

Cycling is tainted?? Does anyone actually realise how many scandals and positive tests there has been in athletics. As I pointed out, there was no EPO test in the 90s when Sonia was at her peak, and EPO at its most popular.
This is a bit like the Covid testing, the more you test, the more you catch. Sports like Cycling/Athletics have far more stringent testing than any other sports, so naturally they are the sports with the highest amount of positive tests. I would love something like rugby be given the same level of testing, guys would be getting popped right, left and centre. Too many people bury their heads in the sand about their own sport as they dont want to know about it.

Rockbeast2 · 30-07-2020 11:11am

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Cycling is tainted?? Does anyone actually realise how many scandals and positive tests there has been in athletics. As I pointed out, there was no EPO test in the 90s when Sonia was at her peak, and EPO at its most popular.
This is a bit like the Covid testing, the more you test, the more you catch. Sports like Cycling/Athletics have far more stringent testing than any other sports, so naturally they are the sports with the highest amount of positive tests. I would love something like rugby be given the same level of testing, guys would be getting popped right, left and centre. Too many people bury their heads in the sand about their own sport as they dont want to know about it.

Fair enough point. Cycling and athletics just had the illusion ruined sooner/first. Although rugby is probably my main sport there are a few dodgy Desperate Dan chins around the sport that I think may be unnatural.

stoneill · 30-07-2020 11:15am

Number 1: Jodie Ring, European Powerlift Champion 2019.

Jimbob1977 · 30-07-2020 11:35am

It's tricky to pick out a greatest Irish sports person.

You can have a brilliant player that hasn't won much because of high quality rivals.... and a decorated sport star that wins plenty because the competition is limited.

I'll throw a few names out there...

Ken Doherty winning a World Snooker Championship was a great achievement. A game of angles, logic, concentration... where the difference between success and failure is a millimetre.

Padraig Harrington winning majors

Brian O'Driscoll, Paul O'Connell and Jonnie Sexton acknowledged by their peers as world class.

Liam Brady going to Serie A and being respected, at a time when Irish and British footballers were viewed as uncultured.

Robbie Keane always delivering for Ireland. Even flying back from Los Angeles when he knew he mightnt get any game time.

Stephen Roche winning the grand slam of cycling.

Sonia O'Sullivan for her great achievements on the track, probably robbed by the Chinese trio of a gold medal

Katie Taylor

Ronnie Delaney and Eamonn Coughlan

Randy Archer · 30-07-2020 11:41am

Feisar wrote: »

Belfast is Irish the same way Paris is European.

Wow

Paris is FRENCH first and foremost , then European . Anyone whose being to that city will find out very quickly . The French lead they do not follow

Belfast is British , baby , go to the city centre you will see quickly , then it European , and even then , the Brits were always aloof with Europe and its political organ

Europe is a continent , made up of different competing cultures and beliefs . It’s not a country

The thread isn’t about European sports people, it’s about IRISH sports men . (And the odd token woman )

McIllroy posted his colours to the mast several times , he was only Irish when in the US (money money money ) because of the huge Irish following and the US weirdness over Blighty (like ourselves) He’s a Brit

AP McCoy was happy enough to take the knight hood )the first jockey in donkeys years to revive it ) And BBC SPOTY which is only eligible for Brits , and spent most of his career in Blighty (Now one argument about the knight hood would be out of respect for Lizzy as she’s a huge patron and follower of horse racing )

Dunlop most certainly was a Brit in even sense of the word

Best , his family were orangemen , but they weren’t bigots . He’s drink with almost anyone

Barry McGuigan actually sought to be a Brit

Randy Archer · 30-07-2020 11:48am

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Well, from what I can find, a friend or relative was found with products, but was cleared of any wrongdoing as they were not PEDs or banned.

TBH, the whole drugs thing is hit and miss. Sonia ran at a time when EPO was the drug of choice, but there was no test for it during most of her career. That is not accussing her of doping, just highlighting how random the whole doping thing was. End of the day Lance Armstrong was never caught and if not for being a complete dick, would probably have skated as well. I just think people swallow the whole Irish athletes dont cheat line a little too easily.

So do you think Sonia would be Top 5 in the history of womens distance running?

Lance Armstrong actually was caught . He did fail a drugs test !

But he got doctors to lie and claim it was from a cream to help sores , they doctored up the prescription sheets . The UCI at the time turned a blind eye because they desperately wanted an American to be a star . (Lemons was very universal , he was loved by the French and Belgians - he was very Francophone. Lance was unquestionably a typical loud brash Texan ) Lance literally bribed the UCI by donating machinery to test drugs which UCI could never afford to buy (which begs the question , where was the money that they generated going ? )

Sonia was top 5 women’s middle distance runner between 1990-2000 . I won’t pretend to know much of what went on before that period and I haven’t being paying much attention to athletics since 2008 .

Randy Archer · 30-07-2020 11:55am

Bellbottoms wrote: »

Then what is it?

What criteria do you use to determine the best Irish sportsperson ever?

Morgan is one of the top players in the world in a sport played by billions.

Eh, the fact that Morgan quit the Irish team for personal gains (I have no issue with it , it’s professional sport) to join, of all the nations of the world , bloody Enger-land... as he was half British ... well, surely to god , that disqualifies him as being a “great” Irish man never mind sports man . England ? The enemy , ra ra ra

Sure English Rugby man, Kieran Bracken (mostly pre professional era) use to get a lot of stick when he came to Dublin with the England team . He was born in Ireland and spent a fair bit of his childhood here . Boo boo

Cricket , oh wow, played by a handful of nations at elite level and a couple of more . Bit inflated by the large populations of India and Pakistan , topped up by the likes of South Africa and England and Oz . Oh sure Netherlands play cricket but it’s hardly widespread there

Hardly has the global reach of association football , does it

Randy Archer · 30-07-2020 12:01pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Well then Katie Taylor wins by a mile.

How ? Is a new sport , it’s quite young . Zero competition . Need to wait 30-40 years to see what comes next

Understand what “greatest ever” means ?

Randy Archer · 30-07-2020 12:07pm

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

So Tom Brady isn't one of the greatest of all time under this example? Seeing as how the Patriots only became champions at the turn of the millennium? It's a really bad analogy. I think Taylor is very underappreciated. Had she not been robbed in 2016 in her match of a decision she might have got a second gold. Also worth noting she is a big reason for it being an Olympic sport in the first place but London had to have a potential gold medalist (in Adams) be the first final. IOC originally wanted KT potentially being in that spot.

I still think PH is our greatest sportsperson but I can see why KT is up there and she is a very close second for me.

Eh NFL has been around since the 1950s , Brady is being compared to every QB since then (and earlier editions ) it’s a reasonable length of time with thousands of men to be considered

Patriots existed before Brady too

Not the same

Katie was robbed of nothing. She was beaten fairly , she was nothing like her usual self for the whole 12 months coming into the event . Christ , in 2012 she nearly blew it as her opponent would have reason be question the loss (Katie did enough to win in 2012 but she didn’t have it her own way)

There’s no guarantee that she’s have won gold in 2016 . She lost the worlds earlier . Also, as you alluded to AIBA weren’t having the Irish winning

Randy Archer · 30-07-2020 12:23pm

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Cycling is tainted?? Does anyone actually realise how many scandals and positive tests there has been in athletics. As I pointed out, there was no EPO test in the 90s when Sonia was at her peak, and EPO at its most popular.
This is a bit like the Covid testing, the more you test, the more you catch. Sports like Cycling/Athletics have far more stringent testing than any other sports, so naturally they are the sports with the highest amount of positive tests. I would love something like rugby be given the same level of testing, guys would be getting popped right, left and centre. Too many people bury their heads in the sand about their own sport as they dont want to know about it.

Drugs existed long before EPO . Kelly got popped TWICE .

As you know there was little to no testing in cycling up to the early 1990s bar the big races

You can bet your last Euro that Rugby is dirty as **** !

Randy Archer · 30-07-2020 12:37pm

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

It's tricky to pick out a greatest Irish sports person.

You can have a brilliant player that hasn't won much because of high quality rivals.... and a decorated sport star that wins plenty because the competition is limited.

I'll throw a few names out there...

Ken Doherty winning a World Snooker Championship was a great achievement. A game of angles, logic, concentration... where the difference between success and failure is a millimetre.

Padraig Harrington winning majors

Brian O'Driscoll, Paul O'Connell and Jonnie Sexton acknowledged by their peers as world class.

Liam Brady going to Serie A and being respected, at a time when Irish and British footballers were viewed as uncultured.

Robbie Keane always delivering for Ireland. Even flying back from Los Angeles when he knew he mightnt get any game time.

Stephen Roche winning the grand slam of cycling.

Sonia O'Sullivan for her great achievements on the track, probably robbed by the Chinese trio of a gold medal

Katie Taylor

Ronnie Delaney and Eamonn Coughlan

Roche won a few seven day events like Tour of Switzerland / Tour of Romandi several times and places in stuff like Nice and came third in the famous Badger v Lemond Tour de France but he had one really big year and that is it . He had knee injuries . The grand slam had been done before and those two guys kept winning after achieving that

Sean Kelly on the other hand competing from March to October in a season for 10 years, at least 8 of them as THE MAN. Won the fecking Gio Lombardi when he was nearly 40

. Seven Paris Nice , around 9 monuments )one days and several podiums . He won a Grand Tour , Vuelta (nearly won another) and won the green jersey at TDF 4 times and STILL regularly in the top 10 of the GC. Had he converted a few more 2nd places in stage races of the TDF , no one would be seriously talking about Peter Sagan (only has 2 monuments and doesn’t look like adding to it )

Despite Roche winning 2 Tours (and 3rd in another ), being a very good TT rider and climber King Kelly was better - lasted longer , could win the points jerseys at vuelta and TDF all the while being in contention in every monument race and other semi classics

cj maxx · 30-07-2020 12:47pm

Randy Archer wrote: »

Roche won a few seven day events like Tour of Switzerland / Tour of Romandi several times and places in stuff like Nice and came third in the famous Badger v Lemond Tour de France but he had one really big year and that is it . He had knee injuries . The grand slam had been done before and those two guys kept winning after achieving that

Sean Kelly on the other hand competing from March to October in a season for 10 years, at least 8 of them as THE MAN. Won the fecking Gio Lombardi when he was nearly 40

. Seven Paris Nice , around 9 monuments )one days and several podiums . He won a Grand Tour , Vuelta (nearly won another) and won the green jersey at TDF 4 times and STILL regularly in the top 10 of the GC. Had he converted a few more 2nd places in stage races of the TDF , no one would be seriously talking about Peter Sagan (only has 2 monuments and doesn’t look like adding to it )

Despite Roche winning 2 Tours (and 3rd in another ), being a very good TT rider and climber King Kelly was better - lasted longer , could win the points jerseys at vuelta and TDF all the while being in contention in every monument race and other semi classics

So was his drug dealer better?
Nothing against SK or SR but with all that has come out about cyclists and drug taking , while we will always fondly remember the sight of Charlie swigging champagne in Paris, that golden age of cycling has lost its allure for me.

El Tarangu · 30-07-2020 12:54pm

Strumms wrote: »

Roy Keane :

7 Premier League Championships

4 FA Cups

1 Champions League

1 intercontinental Cup

1 Scottish League

1 Scottish League Cup

12 years at United, 13 trophies.

This could be an argument for Alex Ferguson being the best manager of all time, for the most part. You could just as easily make the argument that Dennis Irwin was Ireland's greatest athlete, as he had won almost all of the same trophies (indeed, Ferguson reckons him as being the only player guaranteed a spot on his 'best of all time' Man Utd team).

El Tarangu · 30-07-2020 12:58pm

cj maxx wrote: »

So was his drug dealer better?
Nothing against SK or SR but it's pretty obvious that all cyclist were taking enhancers

You're not wrong; but, as the argument goes, surely if they beat all the other lads who were equally doped to the eyeballs, surely they would still count as 'the best'?

Anyway, the number of dopers being caught in cycling versus other sports tells us more about the comparative levels of testing than it does about the levels of doping.

cj maxx · 30-07-2020 1:07pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

You're not wrong; but, as the argument goes, surely if they beat all the other lads who were equally doped to the eyeballs, surely they would still count as 'the best'?

Anyway, the number of dopers being caught in cycling versus other sports tells us more about the comparative levels of testing than it does about the levels of doping.

Maybe. But that's a vicious cycle ( pun ) imo. If everyone else is doing it and not being caught, you have to take them just to level the playing ground. So the amount of testing directly contribute to the amount of drug taking

Feisar · 30-07-2020 1:08pm

Randy Archer wrote: »

Wow

Paris is FRENCH first and foremost , then European . Anyone whose being to that city will find out very quickly . The French lead they do not follow

Belfast is British , baby , go to the city centre you will see quickly , then it European , and even then , the Brits were always aloof with Europe and its political organ

Europe is a continent , made up of different competing cultures and beliefs . It’s not a country

The thread isn’t about European sports people, it’s about IRISH sports men . (And the odd token woman )

McIllroy posted his colours to the mast several times , he was only Irish when in the US (money money money ) because of the huge Irish following and the US weirdness over Blighty (like ourselves) He’s a Brit

AP McCoy was happy enough to take the knight hood )the first jockey in donkeys years to revive it ) And BBC SPOTY which is only eligible for Brits , and spent most of his career in Blighty (Now one argument about the knight hood would be out of respect for Lizzy as she’s a huge patron and follower of horse racing )

Dunlop most certainly was a Brit in even sense of the word

Best , his family were orangemen , but they weren’t bigots . He’s drink with almost anyone

Barry McGuigan actually sought to be a Brit

You missed the point, baby

El Tarangu · 30-07-2020 1:57pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

The Tour de France is the most important race - by a considerable margin!

...

And Lance Armstrong was the greatest of them all...

This statement demonstrates your particular lack of understanding in discussing the relative legacies of either Roche or Kelly; no-one with even a cursory interest in cycling would claim Armstrong was the greatest - he never won a Monument.

cj maxx · 30-07-2020 2:00pm

Mysterypunter wrote: »

If a Taylor is the winner it should be Dennis Taylor. Beat Steve Davis in the greatest comeback ever. Waiting for snooker is not a sport, he's a norrie answers

This is ALL hearsay but a woman , from Tyrone, told me that she was told how that final would end ( that DT would win)

afro man · 30-07-2020 2:09pm

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

LOL at the Roy Keane votes. He never played in a European Cup final. He played in one World Cup and Phil Babb had a better tournament.

Giles, Brady, Whelan all outshone him on the European/World stage.

At least there is a good case for Sonia O'Sullivan.

Katie Taylor? Nah, that's like saying Joey Tribbiani is the greatest Italian-American sportsperson of all time for being the Fireball Champion of the World for 25 years when he only had to beat Chandler.

Cycling is too tainted.

Harrington in with a shout.

Rockbeast2

explain how Giles and Brady outshone keane on European world stage

what did Giles / Brady win on European / World stage
think Keane has one less Irish cap and same amount of goals for Ireland

partyguinness · 31-07-2020 12:47pm

I am sorry but when you abandon your home country to play for England (or any other country) for personal ambition and gain you cannot be classed or even discussed as one of the best "Irish Sports person ever". Nobody in Ireland really gives **** about cricket anyway except a few ex pats and Asian medics. It had a novelty factor during the 2007 WC.

And people criticise Roy Keane for apparently walking out on his country. Give me a break.

El Tarangu · 31-07-2020 1:21pm

Close the thread, mods

eagle eye · 31-07-2020 2:10pm

Randy Archer wrote:

How ? Is a new sport , itâ€™s quite young . Zero competition . Need to wait 30-40 years to see what comes next

Understand what â€œgreatest everâ€ means ?

So twenty years is not enough? Is that it? You cannot qualify if your sport is only twenty years?
It doesn't matter if you are the GOAT amateur and well on your way to being the GOAT professional in the sport?

I think you need to look a bit closer. Nobody from this country has ever dominated a sport like Katie Taylor. It doesn't matter if it's twenty years old or 100 years old, at the very top level it's extremely difficult. Katie Taylor first became World Champ at amateur level in 2006 and she's been on top pretty much ever since whether as an amateur or a pro boxer.

There's only a handful of people in all of sports who have been as successful as she has.

You can take points off for the age of the sport but she's still Ireland's greatest sportsperson for being so great for so long.

Truthvader · 31-07-2020 2:12pm

afro man wrote: »

Rockbeast2

explain how Giles and Brady outshone keane on European world stage

what did Giles / Brady win on European / World stage
think Keane has one less Irish cap and same amount of goals for Ireland

By showing up

partyguinness · 31-07-2020 3:45pm

Truthvader wrote: »

By showing up

You are just trolling.

teednab-el · 31-07-2020 4:34pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

George best?

He isn't Irish

partyguinness · 31-07-2020 4:40pm

teednab-el wrote: »

He isn't Irish

What is he then?

teednab-el · 31-07-2020 4:40pm

Il name a few who derserve a mention as they were successful in the big stage.

Roy Keane
Paul McGrath
Brian O Driscoll
Ronan O Gara
Katie Taylor
Conor Mc Gregor
Stephen Roche
Sean Kelly
Sam Bennett
Michael Crute
Michelle de Brun
Eddie Jordan

Should be in most lists.

teednab-el · 31-07-2020 4:44pm

partyguinness wrote: »

What is he then?

Northern Ireland. That yet isn't seen part of Ireland politically whether we like it or not.

partyguinness · 31-07-2020 4:47pm

teednab-el wrote: »

Northern Ireland

Still Irish. The clue is in the second word. Let's be generous and call him 'Northern Irish'.

There is nothing restricting the debate to 26 counties which is what you are inferring.

Randy Archer · 31-07-2020 4:49pm

cj maxx wrote: »

So was his drug dealer better?
Nothing against SK or SR but with all that has come out about cyclists and drug taking , while we will always fondly remember the sight of Charlie swigging champagne in Paris, that golden age of cycling has lost its allure for me.

Well, the Italians courts in 1993 had a certain view about Roche, so.. Roche denies it all and has never been proven (anything else is liable so we shall move on)

Cycling was huge in Ireland back then lol , with the RAS getting proper tv coverage and the Nissan International that made towns like Boyle famous and relevant

Ah, there’s some good stories in cycling again. Eg peter Sagan ,even Sky /Ineos is amusing just to see the reaction of their fan boys vs the “haters” . Phil Gilbert is still a total Ledge . Our own Sam Bennett is doing very well . Best is the hype for Remco and Van Der Pool (who died on his arse in York at the worlds last year ,having the cheek to claim he would win it despite only having half a season - both lads got hype for winning minor races - semi classics are minor, brah );

Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

Comments

Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? READ OP