Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Latin translation help

  • 22-03-2020 7:26pm
    #1
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    What's the note on the birth of Maria Catherina Byrne say please? It's right in the centre of the page.
    https://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000633822_058

    Her father is not named here but he is on the birth cert, so I'm expecting it's something to do with illegitimacy.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭ath262


    I think the last word is father, in some declension (my Latin useless), a word in the 1st line that looks like Puella?, the first word on the second line some form of the word illegitimate. There's a word in there that looks like hominum or similar...

    alternate version of the link (allows zoom etc)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Puella means girl, afaik.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    The legible words are girl , man and father in English


  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭Earnest


    ??? by/from a/the girl (but ??? ???) of men by name? ??? father. I suspect it is saying something about what people are saying about the parentage or alleged parentage. As you note, the father's name is lacking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭Wyldwood


    My best guess
    ?? by the girl (but denied by the husband/man) the man's name is not the father.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Wow!

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    An offline friend suggests that puella could be referencing the mother or the baby girl - this slightly changes it.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭Wyldwood


    Thinking about it again, and depending on the word under the splodge on the bottom line, maybe she is saying he is the father and he's denying it?

    a puella could be from the mother or child but more likely the mother since I don't think the baby would be giving much inormation :).

    the bit in brackets is 'but denied by the husband/man'

    esse patrem is 'to be the father'

    hominem nominem is basically 'the man named'

    My latin is very rusty so someone else might come on board with a better translation


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Thanks, I appreciate all possibilities. And it's a pain that there's a splotch on the page. Presumably that is there in the original too.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Looking at the Ancestry copy of that image it's just possible that what's behind the splodge may be legible on the original register.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Hmm, the Ancestry copy should be identical to the National Library's...

    I'll give the church a call though. It's worth checking.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,088 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    It can't have been the only instance of it and it's probably a standard phrase they use to record it. I would scan through a few years records and see does any other baptism have a similar note.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Hmm, the Ancestry copy should be identical to the National Library's...

    Indeed! Same image, same info - just slightly different in appearance.

    With entries that are hard to read I check both (or the Irish Genealogy copies) just in case one reveals a tad more than the other.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    spurious wrote: »
    It can't have been the only instance of it and it's probably a standard phrase they use to record it. I would scan through a few years records and see does any other baptism have a similar note.

    I'm trying this...

    Unfortunately whoever transcribed this on Rootsireland didn't bother with the comments section.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭Wyldwood


    Looking at the Ancestry image on zoom I don't think that's a splodge at all I think the priest crossed something out and then wrote 'esse'

    I think best guess is that the phrase means that the mother has named a father but he denies it's his.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Fascinating.
    The couple involved got married 4 years later and had 4 more legitimate children...

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 691 ✭✭✭CassieManson


    Wyldwood wrote:
    I think best guess is that the phrase means that the mother has named a father but he denies it's his.


    The baby's surname also appears to be crossed out


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭BowWow


    Wyldwood wrote: »
    I think best guess is that the phrase means that the mother has named a father but he denies it's his.

    Possibly - "The mother has named the father but he hasn't or won't confirm that he is."


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    According to the girl (but is illegitimate)the man named is not the father


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I wonder have we got a stickler priest here.

    The same child's birth is registered as if the parents were married, i.e. father named, mother "formerly" Byrne.

    I went over a few decades of the Malahide register and didn't find anything similar notes but they were very conscientious with updating marriages onto baptisms as per the Ne Temere rules. Useful!

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭Donalde


    My best attempt:
    Assinter [Asserter?] a puella (sed negatur a virs/hominem nominem esse patrem.
    [Parentage] asserted by the girl but denied by the named man that he is the father.


  • Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭montgo


    I'm looking for Latin translation of the dispensation on the marriage record of 8 Feb 1858 of Patricius Roche & Lucinda Kirby.
    Bottom of left hand page:-
    https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632759#page/99/mode/1up
    Many thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭A New earth


    Came across this the other day that might help

    A few of the more common terms:
    Baptizavi: baptized
    Cognomen: last name
    Die: day
    This day: hodie
    Day before: pridie
    Mensis: month
    Natus: birth
    Nomina Parentum: name of parents
    Sponsoribus: sponsors
    Testes adfuerunt: witnesses present
    Daughter - filia
    Son - filius
    Father: pater
    Mother: mater


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Posts moved to the Latin translation thread.

    Looks like a dispensation for affinity in the first grade. I think that's something like marrying your brother or sister in-law. Good summary on this page.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Good summary on this page.

    That's a great article.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭montgo


    Thanks for that, Pinky.

    It could be that Patrick was previously married to Lucinda's sister.

    I'm getting a 403 error message on that link unfortunately.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Oh link is working ok but if you google "trentino genealogy consanguinity affinity" you should find it.

    I keep it bookmarked because it's a really clear guide, even though referencing Italian genealogy.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 643 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    montgo wrote: »
    Thanks for that, Pinky.

    It could be that Patrick was previously married to Lucinda's sister.

    I'm getting a 403 error message on that link unfortunately.
    Hi Montgo,
    In case you've not got it,
    Patricius Roche & Lucinda Kirby obtenta dispensation Apostolica in impedimento affineratatis in 1 O gradu conjuncti sunt in matrimonium



    The were related by marriage – one of them had been married to a sibling of the other, hence first degree of affinity and dispensation necessary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16 rusheens


    Can anyone help with the latin in the Observations section for the marriage of Francis Barrington and Bridget Keogh on this page (no: 49)? Many thanks!


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Could you provide the url to the page please to allow for bigger zooming?

    I think the Latin words are

    matrimonium hoc ex ____ licentia arch___ celebrat____ est

    and then initials

    So suspect something to do with a special licence, which is usually to avoid the banns.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



Advertisement