BE Services to Go-Ahead and Resulting Fleet Changes

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 31-12-2018 2:36pm

GM228 wrote: »

It does make you wonder why the 17 LDs in storage long term have not had their corrosion issues addressed. They were sent to Inchicore for remedial work which to date has not happened, they have not even been assessed yet despite some arriving 2 years ago.

And why a perfectly good 2008 LD (one of the few "good" ones) is now allocated permanently to the driving school when a 2004 SP for example could have been allocated instead of being scrapped when it's time on PSO was up.

I believe they were sent with intent to repair but was pulled due to costs for some and not others. Appearently some have resurfaced. Some are now in cork and Limerick also !

The training school thing I couldn't explain only for they do have 2 SPs and the LD

But on these 2 issues I'm not fully sure on so I'm not able to explain much myself now but some others are active in this area of knowledge, possibly someone else who knows the answers to these issues

punisher5112 · 31-12-2018 2:58pm

I would guess the Tri axles LD is there due to tail swing and rear steer to teach how to watch for this as they really need a lot of space.

GM228 · 31-12-2018 3:13pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I would guess the Tri axles LD is there due to tail swing and rear steer to teach how to watch for this as they really need a lot of space.

The training school did without a tri-axle for the last 10 years, I just find it odd that they allocated a much needed high capacity vehicle exclusively to the school during a time of fleet restraint.

Victor · 31-12-2018 3:39pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Afaik VDL won a competitive tender process meaning they were the ones the NTA had to buy for BE under EU law. If BE or the NTA could actually choose which buses they were to buy they would likely go for a different company. Because it's a government contract and these things are tightly controlled they have to go for the most competitive tender.

Unfortunately it appears that VDLs business model is set around winning government tenders rather than building quality buses. Unlike private operators who choose whichever bus off the shelf they fancy.

Many successful tenders are no longer the lowest tender. 'Most economically advantageous' is often used, as are various forms of 'beauty competition'. Points could be awarded against a manufacturer or deductions made to payments for poor performance.

punisher5112 · 31-12-2018 3:56pm

GM228 wrote: »

The training school did without a tri-axle for the last 10 years, I just find it odd that they allocated a much needed high capacity vehicle exclusively to the school during a time of fleet restraint.

I get that but there may well be reasons such as other issues with the bus, many collisions so training on the actual types they will be driving etc.

GM228 · 31-12-2018 4:24pm

Victor wrote: »

Many successful tenders are no longer the lowest tender. 'Most economically advantageous' is often used, as are various forms of 'beauty competition'. Points could be awarded against a manufacturer or deductions made to payments for poor performance.

I don't think the MEAT tendering system can use past mistakes for deciding. The "quality" aspect of the decision is based on the quality assurances given in the submission as opposed to actual previous quality issues and the overall "quality score".

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 31-12-2018 6:24pm

Just the two points here

The training LD is only something like 12.6 M long as opposed to the 2015 - 2018 LD - LF that are 14.1 meter long, so a bit wasteful if you ask me, again considering an SP is something like 12.1-12.3 meter long I think !

The tendering part is interesting since this time the NTA have gone to Volvo , we heard a rumour it was because they finally saw how unreliable the VDL brand is but we can't be too sure of that for fact but I do wonder if that did play a part in it

Also just to say, I think a 12.6 - 14.1 tri-axle coach will actually be much easier to manoeuvre than a 13.6M twin axel on corners etc. I can't wait to see the turning circle on these Volvo's now, it'll be terrible.

GM228 · 31-12-2018 6:36pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

The tendering part is interesting since this time the NTA have gone to Volvo , we heard a rumour it was because they finally saw how unreliable the VDL brand is but we can't be too sure of that for fact but I do wonder if that did play a part in it

The NTA never bought VDL, all of the VDLs have been procured directly by BE (including the new LFs and the 2017 LC300s) with NTA funding for PSO services as opposed to the NTA procuring them..

The difference this time round is the NTA are doing the procurement themselves and have chosen Volvo again. Volvo also hold the double deck city bus contract (which is sub contracted to Wrights).

It's also interesting to note that in 2014 Scania won a contract to supply BE with 25 tri-axle single deckers for Expressway, the contract was subsequently cancelled.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 01-01-2019 4:20pm

I thought they did get the Scania tender ?

Since the 2015 - 2016 fleet came in matching that description ? The newer SE fleet

Was it possible the tender was cancelled because they wanted to alter it and they just delt with Scania directly ?

But either way , in 2014 cancel an accepted deal from Scania and in 2015 and 2016 new Scania fleet arrive. I'd say it was all connected

Stephen15 · 01-01-2019 5:19pm

I thought BE leased the Expressway fleet and did not own the Expressway buses outright like most commercial operators such as Aircoach, Citylink, GoBus etc.

GM228 · 01-01-2019 5:19pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I thought they did get the Scania tender ?

Since the 2015 - 2016 fleet came in matching that description ? The newer SE fleet

Was it possible the tender was cancelled because they wanted to alter it and they just delt with Scania directly ?

But either way , in 2014 cancel an accepted deal from Scania and in 2015 and 2016 new Scania fleet arrive. I'd say it was all connected

Sorry, I was having a bit of a brain fart moment there, the Scania contract was indeed completed and it was the new SEs, it was a 2014 tender for up to 60 single deckers which was cancelled.

GM228 · 01-01-2019 5:26pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I thought BE leased the Expressway fleet and did not own the Expressway buses outright like most commercial operators such as Aircoach, Citylink, GoBus etc.

No, they are owned by BE with the exception possibly of the VEs (there is no contract award on record with Volvo/Sunsundegui for these).

Last month BE issued a call for competition tender for sale and/or lease of new two and tri-axle Expressway coaches, the actual tender will issue next month.

From the latest BE report (it says lease only but nothing happened in the end of 2017 expression of interest and the new tender has both purchase and lease options):

Expressway Fleet

The procurement process for the lease of 20 new buses for Expressway commenced in late 2017. In addition, the tender will include provision for up to eight luxury double deck intercity coaches and up to 18 high-spec single deck 2 or 3 axle coaches for frontline Expressway services over the next five-year period.

RuleNumber6 · 03-01-2019 7:26pm

devnull wrote: »

Calling that vehicle a coach is rather generous I'd say. The Volvo B8RLE is a bus chassis and the low line of the vehicle looks like a bus as well. It's more of a bus with a body to make it look like a coach more than anything else and it certainly won't have the same ride quality as a proper high line coach like the SC models that Bus Eireann also use on commuter routes.

No doubt the B8RLE chassis is better than that is being used on the VDL products but at the end of the day it's a bus in the clothing of a coach, which would be considerably cheaper to produce than a high line coach on a coach chassis which probably is how it won the tender. It's also a new product to the UK and Ireland market so it's unproven. They will have had to make some compromises to get a coach body on a coach chassis so it'll be interesting to see how they crossed that bridge.

VDL still do build the Jonckheere JHV2/SHV2 body on the Volvo B11R/B13R Chassis which is still a quality vehicle and used extensively on touring week in the UK and Ireland, but the ex Berkhof line, which is what the LC/LD/LE/LF class is, is nowhere near the same standard.

The B8 chassis is common for coaches, so I disagree it's a bus chassis and that the ride will be inferior.

These coaches are not unproven - the only 'new' aspect of this coach is the right hand drive nature - the left hand drive version of the SB3LE is common throughout Europe.

What I think is not good, is that they are 13.5m on 2 axles - no doubt with real big overhangs and fierce tail swing. The small 8L engine for a big coach could also prove sluggish - I've driven the VDL double decks and at least they have some power behind them.

devnull · 03-01-2019 7:46pm

RuleNumber6 wrote: »

The B8 chassis is common for coaches, so I disagree it's a bus chassis and that the ride will be inferior.

These coaches are not unproven - the only 'new' aspect of this coach is the right hand drive nature - the left hand drive version of the SB3LE is common throughout Europe.

We're not talking about the B8 chassis range, which includes the higher line B8R though, we're talking about the B8RLE which is designed to be a chassis for a low floor city bus. It's related to the B8R, but it's not the same and to try and suggest that they are one and the same couldn't be further from the truth.

The B8R does have a number of coaches built on it in the UK and Ireland including the Plaxton Leopard and the SC3 as well as the non low-entry version of the SB3. But the BE order is not built on this chassis, it is built on it's bus cousin, the B8RLE, unless Bus Eireann made a mistake in their internal docs.

Volvo B8R: https://www.volvobuses.co.uk/content/dam/volvo/volvo-buses/markets/uk/our-offering/coaches/volvo-B8R/documents/B8R%20brochure.pdf
Volvo B8RLE: https://www.volvobuses.co.uk/content/dam/volvo/volvo-buses/markets/uk/our-offering/buses/volvo-B8RLE/documents/B8RLE%20brochure.pdf

What I think is not good, is that they are 13.5m on 2 axles - no doubt with real big overhangs and fierce tail swing. The small 8L engine for a big coach could also prove sluggish - I've driven the VDL double decks and at least they have some power behind them.

Well that would be my worry as well, especially when they only are going to have a 280bhp engine, which is the standard spec engine that is fitted to the B8RLE chassis.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 03-01-2019 9:21pm

devnull wrote: »

We're not talking about the B8 chassis range, which includes the higher line B8R though, we're talking about the B8RLE which is designed to be a chassis for a low floor city bus. It's related to the B8R, but it's not the same and to try and suggest that they are one and the same couldn't be further from the truth.

The B8R does have a number of coaches built on it in the UK and Ireland including the Plaxton Leopard and the SC3 as well as the non low-entry version of the SB3. But the BE order is not built on this chassis, it is built on it's bus cousin, the B8RLE, unless Bus Eireann made a mistake in their internal docs.

Volvo B8R: https://www.volvobuses.co.uk/content/dam/volvo/volvo-buses/markets/uk/our-offering/coaches/volvo-B8R/documents/B8R%20brochure.pdf
Volvo B8RLE: https://www.volvobuses.co.uk/content/dam/volvo/volvo-buses/markets/uk/our-offering/buses/volvo-B8RLE/documents/B8RLE%20brochure.pdf

Well that would be my worry as well, especially when they only are going to have a 280bhp engine, which is the standard spec engine that is fitted to the B8RLE chassis.

I very highly doubt we'd be getting such a small engine to do such high speeds with a small 250-280 liter fuel tank

It's just the chassis with something different being built around it, engines and other parts can be changed etc

All we can do is wait and see what actually arrives

devnull · 03-01-2019 9:33pm

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I very highly doubt we'd be getting such a small engine to do such high speeds with a small 250-280 liter fuel tank

It's just the chassis with something different being built around it, engines and other parts can be changed etc

All we can do is wait and see what actually arrives

Well it's going to be an 8 litre engine no matter what bhp engine you are going to put in there, since the B8RLE is designed around the Volvo 7.7 litre engine range, which is where the 8 comes from in the chassis name.

There is a 350bhp 7.7 litre engine option, however to my knowledge this has only ever been used on the B8RLE6x2 Tri-Axle chassis, which itself has only been used for the Plaxton Panther LE for Stagecoach which has only been out a very short while. It may well be able to be also used on the two axle B8RLE, but I believe it would be the first time this configuration has been specified.

If you're going to make quite a lot of customisations to a chassis, you have to ask the question of whether you are specifying the right chassis in the first place and if there is another chassis that would be a better option out of the box.

RuleNumber6 · 03-01-2019 9:38pm

devnull wrote: »

We're not talking about the B8 chassis range, which includes the higher line B8R though, we're talking about the B8RLE which is designed to be a chassis for a low floor city bus. It's related to the B8R, but it's not the same and to try and suggest that they are one and the same couldn't be further from the truth.

True, I had forgotten these would be truly Low Entry. Either way, I have always found the B8RLE to be comfortable, hopefully this will be comparable to these coaches.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I very highly doubt we'd be getting such a small engine to do such high speeds with a small 250-280 liter fuel tank

It's just the chassis with something different being built around it, engines and other parts can be changed etc

Fuel tank you could spec differently, however if you got a larger 11L engine on a B8RLE chassis... then it would be a B11RLE...

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 03-01-2019 9:40pm

devnull wrote: »

Well it's going to be an 8 litre engine no matter what bhp engine you are going to put in there, since the B8RLE is designed around the Volvo 7.7 litre engine range, which is where the 8 comes from in the chassis name.

There is a 350bhp 7.7 litre engine option, however to my knowledge this has only ever been used on the B8RLE6x2 Tri-Axle chassis, which itself has only been used for the Plaxton Panther LE for Stagecoach which has only been out a very short while. It may well be able to be also used on the two axle B8RLE, but I believe it would be the first time this configuration has been specified.

If you're going to make quite a lot of customisations to a chassis, you have to ask the question of whether you are specifying the right chassis in the first place and if there is another chassis that would be a better option out of the box.

Again, I'm not going to speculate on what we do get, but I'm going to sit tight and see what rolls in the gate.

I can't see these things only having small power (city bus / low speed) in a coach body for 100kmh.

Let's just wait and see, only a few months anyway if all goes to plan

devnull · 03-01-2019 9:47pm

RuleNumber6 wrote: »

True, I had forgotten these would be truly Low Entry. Either way, I have always found the B8RLE to be comfortable, hopefully this will be comparable to these coaches.

I have to say that the B8RLE is a far superior chassis for a city bus, compared to the lightweight, integral stuff such as the StreetLite and the Enviro 200. They are like chalk and cheese if you ask me. However ultimately the B8RLE, as a proper chassis, is heavier and hungrier on fuel than the integrals.

For me though, building a coach on a bus chassis rather than a coach one is a similar move to going from a heavyweight, sturdy bus chassis to the likes of a StreetLite and integral Enviro 200. Both moves are ultimately designed to reduce costs, weight and save fuel over building a sturdy, well built vehicle, although at least with the B8RLE you do get accessibility benefits over the high line coach.

Stephen15 · 03-01-2019 10:08pm

devnull wrote: »

I have to say that the B8RLE is a far superior chassis for a city bus, compared to the lightweight, integral stuff such as the StreetLite and the Enviro 200. They are like chalk and cheese if you ask me. However ultimately the B8RLE, as a proper chassis, is heavier and hungrier on fuel than the integrals.

For me though, building a coach on a bus chassis rather than a coach one is a similar move to going from a heavyweight, sturdy bus chassis to the likes of a StreetLite and integral Enviro 200. Both moves are ultimately designed to reduce costs, weight and save fuel over building a sturdy, well built vehicle, although at least with the B8RLE you do get accessibility benefits over the high line coach.

Would it not depend on the type of work they are doing they may be suitable for shorter distance commuter work rather than long distance intercity work.

GM228 · 03-01-2019 10:32pm

In relation to the recent post regarding the new buses chassis and engines, they will indeed be on the Volvo B8RLE chassis, with a SB5 body by Sunsundegui, but, a while back the following was published in Route One (which is a leading bus/coach industry news source):-

A newcomer

The Panther LE is not to be the only low-entry vehicle suited to interurban work that will have a Volvo chassis, for the manufacturer has won a large order for a similar, albeit two-axle, product on the B8RLE chassis in conjunction with Sunsundegui.

With the SB5 body, the newcomer to right-hand drive will be 12.2m long and seat 45. It has a low-floor front section with space for a wheelchair user, and steps ahead of the rear axle leading to a high-floor rear.

That configuration may sound remarkably similar to Volvo’s existing urban offering in conjunction with MCV and Wrightbus, but the Sunsundegui-bodied product is a little different.

It is more tailored to longer-distance work, and offers a small amount of underfloor luggage space along with overhead racks. It also benefits from a power upgrade; the D8K engine is rated at 320bhp and coupled to a ZF EcoLife gearbox.

“Although the first batch of SB5s will be two-axle vehicles, the chassis layout is flexible and we could offer the product in tri-axle layout if a customer wished,” says Commercial Sales Director Phil Owen. “It’s possible to add coach elements to a bus body up to a point, but this is a coach built on a low-entry chassis.”

All of the thus far announced additions to Volvo’s range give what is undoubtedly by far the most extensive right-hand drive coach line-up. Most importantly for buyers, investment in facilities means that it is well able to support all of those products.

Buses Magazine also recently reported a 12.2M body, is the 13.5M lenght reported by BE a mistake I wonder?

devnull · 03-01-2019 11:01pm

GM228 wrote: »

In relation to the recent post regarding the new buses chassis and engines, they will indeed be on the Volvo B8RLE chassis, with a SB5 body by Sunsundegui, but, a while back the following was published in Route One (which is a leading bus/coach industry news source):-

Buses Magazine also recently reported a 12.2M body, is the 13.5M lenght reported by BE a mistake I wonder?

The Bus Eireann magazine as shown up-thread suggests that it's an SB3, although it's not said explicitly,, plus as well as being a different length to what is being reported, the BE spec seems to feature 4 more seats, so it's possible it's a longer version, be curious as to what engine it has.

GM228 · 03-01-2019 11:18pm

devnull wrote: »

The Bus Eireann magazine as shown up-thread suggests that it's an SB3, although it's not said explicitly,, plus as well as being a different length to what is being reported, the BE spec seems to feature 4 more seats, so it's possible it's a longer version, be curious as to what engine it has.

It says "based on" the SB3, the SB5 would appear to be a new body based on the SB3 especially as their is a prototype body, would there be a need for a prototype body if using the SB3 which is already established?

From the Buses Magazine:

Plaxton hopes to conclude at least two other orders for this model, its first double deck coach in nearly 30 years.

It also bid to supply the Panter LE on two-axle B8RLEs to Bus Éireann, as did Wrightbus with a modified Eclipse 3 body, but that order for 52 vehicles has gone instead to Sunsundegui with a body it calls the SB5, a designation many Buses readers might associate more readily with a rather basic Bedford of 50 years ago.

roadmaster · 24-01-2019 6:58pm

Was driving inbound to dublin this evening on the m3 and seen a BE double decker parked up with the engine cover up and a service van behind it. I wonder will BE be happy to offer that bus to GHI

GM228 · 14-02-2019 10:30pm

BE have issued a tender for inspection and anti corrosion treatment of approximately 321 buses.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=141993&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

To be treated are double and single deck city buses and single deck coaches. No mention of double deck coaches so I'm guessing the 17 LD200s stored in Inchicore long term awaiting anti corrosion treatment are staying put.

Stephen15 · 14-02-2019 10:37pm

Anyone have any idea what livery the buses on the GAI BE routes will be. Will be the same as the ex DB or BE Waterford routes or will it be something more like the livery the 139 has.

GM228 · 14-02-2019 10:53pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Anyone have any idea what livery the buses on the GAI BE routes will be. Will be the same as the ex DB or BE Waterford routes or will it be something more like the livery the 139 has.

It is believed to be something like the 139/817/975 regional type livery.

devnull · 14-02-2019 11:08pm

GM228 wrote: »

It is believed to be something like the 139/817/975 regional type livery.

Do the later two even have that livery? Haven't seen it, I know the 817 was in that livery for a while but it was removed.

GM228 · 15-02-2019 9:58am

devnull wrote: »

Do the later two even have that livery? Haven't seen it, I know the 817 was in that livery for a while but it was removed.

I didn't realise the 817 lost that livery and I wonder why, only recently Wharton's have repainted two buses into that livery for the 975 at the request of the NTA.

Their Volvo B7RLE (ex BE??) they regularly used on the route and their Streetlite has the livery.

Edit: The Volvo is on their FB page:

https://facebook.com/1742025646046154/photos/a.1933966900185360/2000655513516498/?type=3&source=44&ref=page_internal

And here's the Streetlite:

I think both (especially the Streetlite) wear the livery much better than the 817 version especially with the blue going the full height of the bus, it just didn't look right on the 817 IMO.

Stephen15 · 15-02-2019 2:42pm

The Streetlite does look quite well in that livery alright. I'm just guessing but would it be the case that the buses in the TFI livery on the 817 have been withdrawn and replaced by other newer Bernard Kavanagh buses that are not in TFI livery.

I don't like the idea of having buses in route specific livery fine I suppose for smaller operators with only one or two PSO routes such as Bernard Kavanagh or Wharton's but poor for large operators like GAI or BE. It creates inconsistency with routes branded in route liveries appearing on other routes for example I see NX branded buses on other BE routes and if the NTA are strict on allocations for route specific branding then it means operators are restricted in what they can and can't allocate.

BE Services to Go-Ahead and Resulting Fleet Changes

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