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Commonly believed historical inaccuracies

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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,631 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    The laughable piece in Tom Barry's book about Japanese soldiers after the fall of Singapore singing "The Boys of Kilmichael".

    More chance of the lads of the column performing Kabuki.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    That Richard III killed his nephews, had a withered arm, etc.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    That Richard III killed his nephews, had a withered arm, etc.

    What is current thinking of what happened them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    That De Valera was behind the shooting of Michael Collins.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    That the first shots of the War of Independence was fired at Soloheadbeg


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    What is current thinking of what happened them?

    Much more likely to have been Henry since the boys had a stronger claim than their sister who he married. Shakespeare performed great propaganda for the Tudors.

    Finding Richard's skeleton proved he had a deformed spine but his arms were normal.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,631 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    saabsaab wrote: »
    That De Valera was behind the shooting of Michael Collins.

    You can blame that cartoon of a Michael Collins movie for popularising that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Caquas


    "Being born in a stable does not make one a horse". A quote falsely claimed to have been uttered by the Duke of Wellington

    Worse still, it was said about him by his arch-enemy Daniel O'Connell. During a speech at a banquet after one of O'Connell's Monster Meetings on Sunday the 1st of October 1843
    The following passage in reference to the Duke of Wellington was received with great laughter: “The poor old duke what shall I say of him. To be sure he was born in Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make a man a horse.”

    In fact, the Duke was from a distinguished Anglo-Irish family with deep roots in Ireland. His father was the first Professor of Music in Trinity College and the Duke was famously musical. Beethoven’s orchestral piece "Wellington’s Victory" is said to have made its composer more money than any other work.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I think it's marvellous that we consider Wellington's comment a snub against us when DOC actually meant to snub him in reverse by saying. We should allow this historical inaccuracy to stand.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭grassylawn


    Cork is called the Rebel County because of its resistance to British rule.

    It is called that by Henry VII because it sent two pretenders during his reign.
    https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/history/real-reason-cork-called-rebel-16323863


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    grassylawn wrote: »
    Cork is called the Rebel County because of its resistance to British rule.

    It is called that by Henry VII because it sent two pretenders during his reign.
    https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/history/real-reason-cork-called-rebel-16323863


    It's probably now called that still because of the resistance!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,035 ✭✭✭coolbeans


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    That many Irish people of sallow skin must descend from survivors of the Spanish Armada.

    This comes up a lot now in discussing the ethnicity results of DNA tests.

    Sallow doesn't mean what you think it means... at least everywhere except Ireland it means sickly looking or jaundiced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    coolbeans wrote: »
    Sallow doesn't mean what you think it means... at least everywhere except Ireland it means sickly looking or jaundiced.
    And it's etymologically related to the Irish salach, dirty!

    In what is basically a racist usage, it came to be applied to the brownish or yellowish skin tones of Mediterranean and Middle Eastern people, the implication being that these people were naturally unclean.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    A controversial one here, that the Examiner (and all other outlets) recently reported:
    The Galway historian, whose research established that 796 children were buried in a septic tank at a former mother and baby home in Tuam

    The "800 babies in a septic tank" went round the world and has been almost universally accepted as established fact among the public and the media, and has been discussed a lot in recent weeks.

    This is not the case at all and the lady who "established" this, never said or argued that 800 babies were dumped in a septic tank.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Per IT.


    'Excavations of the site in 2017 showed “significant quantities of human remains” in a 20-chamber underground structure near a decommissioned sewage tank. DNA analysis confirmed the ages of the dead children ranged from 35 weeks gestation to three years and were buried chiefly in the 1950s.'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    saabsaab wrote: »
    Per IT.


    'Excavations of the site in 2017 showed “significant quantities of human remains” in a 20-chamber underground structure near a decommissioned sewage tank. DNA analysis confirmed the ages of the dead children ranged from 35 weeks gestation to three years and were buried chiefly in the 1950s.'
    Yes, but it is a "commonly believed historical inaccuracy" that 800 babies were dumped into a septic tank in Tuam. The historian "behind" the claim never said it and doesn't believe it, yet it gets reported as "established" fact, as the Examiner put it. (None of this means that terrible things didn't happen, but we are talking about inaccuracies that are commonly held here).


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,475 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Richard Pryor wasn't addicted to cocaine. He just loved the way it smelled.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    John Wayne fought in world war two.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Caquas


    grassylawn wrote: »
    Cork is called the Rebel County because of its resistance to British rule.

    It is called that by Henry VII because it sent two pretenders during his reign.
    https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/history/real-reason-cork-called-rebel-16323863

    I see a lot of similar claims online but none of them cite any references to "rebel county" before the 20th. century. Perkin Warbeck did arrive in Cork and start his campaign but I haven't even seen a convincing source for the phrase "Rebel City", which Henry VII allegedly used in relation to Cork City.

    These events may have been the source of Waterford's rivalry with Cork.

    http://www.waterfordmuseum.ie/exhibit/web/Display/article/334/6/Lewiss_Topographical_Dictionary__Waterford_City_Lambert_Simnel__Perkin_Warbeck.html


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 2,147 Mod ✭✭✭✭Oink


    saabsaab wrote: »
    John Wayne fought in world war two.

    If I remember correctly they threatened to sue him into the ground if he tried to leave the cinema business to go a-warrin’. Or something to that effect.


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  • Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Nero fiddled while Rome burns

    Julius Caesar was emperor


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Oink wrote: »
    If I remember correctly they threatened to sue him into the ground if he tried to leave the cinema business to go a-warrin’. Or something to that effect.


    Never knew that heard he was having an affair with a starlet at the time. Might have been arranged by the studios to keep him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭grassylawn


    Caquas wrote: »
    I see a lot of similar claims online but none of them cite any references to "rebel county" before the 20th. century. Perkin Warbeck did arrive in Cork and start his campaign but I haven't even seen a convincing source for the phrase "Rebel City", which Henry VII allegedly used in relation to Cork City.

    These events may have been the source of Waterford's rivalry with Cork.

    http://www.waterfordmuseum.ie/exhibit/web/Display/article/334/6/Lewiss_Topographical_Dictionary__Waterford_City_Lambert_Simnel__Perkin_Warbeck.html
    Dunno. It's on wikipedia it cites The Penguin Encyclopedia of Places as the source. That's by John Paxton who is a historian with lots of publications. Google Books tells me the book does have a bit about Cork that includes the term "Rebel County", but doesn't let me read the page.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    For over 800 years, the british army oppressed the irish people. It all started with great potato famine of 1916, when the british stole all our food. And when we were too starving and too weak to fight, they stole the 7 counties of ulster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    For over 800 years, the british army oppressed the irish people. It all started with great potato famine of 1916, when the british stole all our food. And when we were too starving and too weak to fight, they stole the 7 counties of ulster.


    I see what you did there! Fair enough but change the details a bit and it's all true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Indeed. And another nugget of barstool republican wisdom, usually stated as absolute fact....Anglo Irish Bank was set up by the Brits to ruin the country to get us back into the Commonwealth – sure just look at it’s name!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Indeed. And another nugget of barstool republican wisdom, usually stated as absolute fact....Anglo Irish Bank was set up by the Brits to ruin the country to get us back into the Commonwealth – sure just look at it’s name!


    New one to me!


    Still one million died of hunger and one million plus emigrated then or soon after. All under British Rule no getting away from that fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭Caquas


    grassylawn wrote: »
    Dunno. It's on wikipedia it cites The Penguin Encyclopedia of Places as the source. That's by John Paxton who is a historian with lots of publications. Google Books tells me the book does have a bit about Cork that includes the term "Rebel County", but doesn't let me read the page.

    Wikipedia is only as good as its sources and its article on Cork is particularly weak in that respect. No doubt the Paxton book mentions Cork as the Rebel County but that book is recent (1999) and I doubt it gives any pre-20th. C. source.

    The more I look at it, the more I think there is no basis for claims that this phrase was applied to Cork in earlier times. Conceivably, Cork City may have been called a “rebel city” during the Perkin Warbeck rebellion but no one has found an historical source for that claim and, even if proven, it is totally removed from the modern usage.

    A good example of the kind of fake history this thread is meant to expose, but in the opposite sense to that proposed by earlier posts here and elsewhere https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91333776

    The phrase “rebel county” was used in the U.S. during and after the Civil War, where States bordering the Confederacy had local areas with strong Confederate sympathies. I wonder if this usage influenced the subsequent use in Cork during and after the War of Independence. (This suggestion is not linked to the use of the Confederate flag by Cork supporters - that is very recent, no earlier that the 1970s.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭grassylawn


    Caquas wrote: »
    Wikipedia is only as good as its sources and its article on Cork is particularly weak in that respect. No doubt the Paxton book mentions Cork as the Rebel County but that book is recent (1999) and I doubt it gives any pre-20th. C. source.

    The more I look at it, the more I think there is no basis for claims that this phrase was applied to Cork in earlier times. Conceivably, Cork City may have been called a “rebel city” during the Perkin Warbeck rebellion but no one has found an historical source for that claim and, even if proven, it is totally removed from the modern usage.

    A good example of the kind of fake history this thread is meant to expose, but in the opposite sense to that proposed by earlier posts here and elsewhere https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91333776

    The phrase “rebel county” was used in the U.S. during and after the Civil War, where States bordering the Confederacy had local areas with strong Confederate sympathies. I wonder if this usage influenced the subsequent use in Cork during and after the War of Independence. (This suggestion is not linked to the use of the Confederate flag by Cork supporters - that is very recent, no earlier that the 1970s.)
    I don't think it is fake.

    The article on Perkin Warbeck lists the Independent as a source. Not saying that is definitive proof...

    https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/if-not-for-collins-why-is-it-called-the-rebel-county-29469436.html

    Here is a longer version of the article on the journalist's blog. It's a good read. The journalist invites comments. You could ask him what his source is

    http://josefoshea.blogspot.com/2015/03/perkin-warbeck-male-model-who-fought.html


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    grassylawn wrote: »
    I don't think it is fake.

    The article on Perkin Warbeck lists the Independent as a source. Not saying that is definitive proof...

    https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/if-not-for-collins-why-is-it-called-the-rebel-county-29469436.html

    Here is a longer version of the article on the journalist's blog. It's a good read. The journalist invites comments. You could ask him what his source is

    http://josefoshea.blogspot.com/2015/03/perkin-warbeck-male-model-who-fought.html


    You could say Cork have been rebels all the time.


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