Tenants made multiple changes to the property

tradesman · 12-10-2018 6:58am

the_syco wrote: »

Don't upgrade what you don't own.

Myth. Have seen unfurnished lets. It's just that the Irish expect the place to be furnished.

Theres some unfurnished houses in Thurles Tipperary! Lol

FishOnABike · 12-10-2018 7:48am

kaji wrote: »

I only read the first page of this thread, but as the owner of a house- I would not be happy if they made all of those changes. I watch a lot of those "nightmare tenant" programmes and see a lot of people shouting abuse that they won't move out cos they think they have a right to stay in the property because of changes they made. What reason could they possibly have to change the locks? That's ridiculous. I'd evict them before they are there for 6 months, say you have to fix the place up because of urgent structural damage or that your sibling needs the house and it's partly in their name (lie).

If you watch "nightmare tenant" programmes you will see nightmares. OP needs to talk to the tenant about the changes and address the matter objectively, not engage in hysteria based on too much tabloid TV.

If the OP decides the appropriate course of action is to terminate the tenancy (and I'm in no way suggesting it is) it needs to be done strictly according to the law.

Giving a false reason for terminating a tenancy could leave the OP open to a claim for unlawful eviction. Advising them to lie, using reasons given in the residential tenancies act, is very poor advice.

OP needs to discuss the changes with the tenant and make any decision based on reality rather than wild speculation. Provided the OP is happy with the outcome of any discussions with the tenant there is no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

the_pen_turner · 12-10-2018 10:19am

tradesman wrote: »

Theres some unfurnished houses in Thurles Tipperary! Lol

sadly there will be loads more money spent on furniture for those

dennyk · 12-10-2018 1:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I did hear that it was illegal to rent unfurnished here, but I assumed that this was an urban myth... ?

Urban myth, most likely; it's perfectly legal to rent unfurnished, you'll just have a lot fewer potential tenants. However, due to the minimum rental standards, you can't go full German here, so that might be what you heard; landlords are required to supply the standard kitchen gear (stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, kitchen cupboards, and sink) and a washer (and dryer, if there's no private garden).

12-10-2018 1:43pm

dennyk wrote: »

Urban myth, most likely; it's perfectly legal to rent unfurnished, you'll just have a lot fewer potential tenants. However, due to the minimum rental standards, you can't go full German here, so that might be what you heard; landlords are required to supply the standard kitchen gear (stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, kitchen cupboards, and sink) and a washer (and dryer, if there's no private garden).

Yes, might be that. It seems a bit silly because somebody moving with their furniture and looking to rent will most likely have their own white goods (not stove, sink and kitchen cupboards, but fridge, washer and microwave etc.).

crossmolinalad · 12-10-2018 1:49pm

dennyk wrote: »

Urban myth, most likely; it's perfectly legal to rent unfurnished, you'll just have a lot fewer potential tenants. However, due to the minimum rental standards, you can't go full German here, so that might be what you heard; landlords are required to supply the standard kitchen gear (stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, kitchen cupboards, and sink) and a washer (and dryer, if there's no private garden).

Cant understand that the irish want to live , sit , eat of or sleep on the "rubbish" from someone else
Every house I have rented here I refurbished them all getting rid of the horrible Magnolia walls ugly flowering or horrible colored carpets , wonderfull horrible "stars and stripes" curtains , chubby lampshades on cord at the sealing ,dirty whitegoods wich some has seen worldwar2 , beds where unknown people sleep in "burnt in" 4 rings hob and oven
No thanks everything out and own stuff in
And no its no theft because when I moving out he gets al of his "nice" stuf back on the places where I found it
And from all of the houses I rented the landlords all have paid me for the flooring curtains and the ceiling lights when I left the house
This house where I live in now gots a bit further
Did put in a brand new bathroom old one was dirty not be able to clean and from the seventies
He wanted to do it himselves but then I had to move out (the law I believe) so I said no thanks and did it myself by a qualified builder/plummer

there is a nice stove with backboiler and radiators in it but im working on daytime so last winter I bought 3 storage heaters and replaced them where they ever were in the past , all the connections and the night meter were still there so no extreme improvements
if he wants it I take them out again and repaint the wall if I move out

Ray Palmer · 12-10-2018 4:15pm

dennyk wrote: »

Urban myth, most likely; it's perfectly legal to rent unfurnished, you'll just have a lot fewer potential tenants. However, due to the minimum rental standards, you can't go full German here, so that might be what you heard; landlords are required to supply the standard kitchen gear (stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, kitchen cupboards, and sink) and a washer (and dryer, if there's no private garden).

So to be clear you can't rent unfinished here due to minimum requirements. Calling it full German doesn't change what unfinished means.
The idea a tenant can throw out what is there and replace it with their own is the urban legend. The landlord must supply the equipment and has to repair it.
In this case the tenant has left the landlord in a situation where if they take their appliances he must replace everything.
I have had tenants "replace" broken white goods that they broke and wonder why they are not getting a full deposit back. A new €400 washing machine replaced with a €50 second hand one after 2 years is not normal wear and tear. I am of course the bad landlord throwing cheap goods in the property is what people assume here.

professore · 12-10-2018 4:20pm

MSVforever wrote: »

Are these guys Irish?

Just asking as in other countries this would be allowed.
In Germany you basically rent the shell and can nearly do what you want with the place.
However after ending the tenancy they must change everything back as it was beforehand.

The difference is the units are generally unfurnished - there is generally an oven, but that's it. And you don't have to paint the walls back to the original colour, just remove all your own furniture. So it's a lot easier than here. It actually makes a lot more sense as people get cheaper accommodation and they already have all their own furniture if/when they do buy a house.

Ray Palmer · 12-10-2018 5:00pm

professore wrote: »

The difference is the units are generally unfurnished - there is generally an oven, but that's it. And you don't have to paint the walls back to the original colour, just remove all your own furniture. So it's a lot easier than here. It actually makes a lot more sense as people get cheaper accommodation and they already have all their own furniture if/when they do buy a house.

Easier for who? The amount of stuff left behind by tenants as is can be bad enough without them leaving furniture behind. I know to check the attic before returning deposits because I have been stung before. Had to remove 6 large black bags of used nappies left in a flat once.

In Germany you also have provide your own kitchen and have insurance for any damage your installation causes to the property or neighbours property.

professore · 12-10-2018 5:09pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Easier for who? The amount of stuff left behind by tenants as is can be bad enough without them leaving furniture behind. I know to check the attic before returning deposits because I have been stung before. Had to remove 6 large black bags of used nappies left in a flat once.

In Germany you also have provide your own kitchen and have insurance for any damage your installation causes to the property or neighbours property.

I don't think you understand. The tenants don't leave their stuff behind, they take it all with them. It's their stuff !!!! Why would they buy fridges, dishwashers, beds, sofas etc and leave them with you???? You don't provide any furniture!

Easier for everyone involved. For a landlord, you walk in and see if everything is clean and empty and then you're good to go. Here all your stuff could have hidden damage or stuff hidden everywhere.

For a tenant, much harder for the landlord to withhold a deposit by saying that the tenant broke or lost stuff that wasn't there in the first place.

GGTrek · 12-10-2018 5:11pm

dennyk wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

I did hear that it was illegal to rent unfurnished here, but I assumed that this was an urban myth... ?

Urban myth, most likely; it's perfectly legal to rent unfurnished, you'll just have a lot fewer potential tenants. However, due to the minimum rental standards, you can't go full German here, so that might be what you heard; landlords are required to supply the standard kitchen gear (stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, kitchen cupboards, and sink) and a washer (and dryer, if there's no private garden).

This is practically most of the stuff and most prone to breaks that has to be provided by landlord: full kitchen with working white appliances and full bathroom and heating system. Most of the repairs will be on the items required by the law (i.e. the landlord provides) since they contain electrical and mechanical items subject to intensive use and therefore breakage. It is not possible to really let unfurnished in Ireland: most Irish people have no idea of what unfurnished means, this is an unfurnished kitchen in other countries:
6034073

The materials and workmanship of the rented apartments are surely better than most Irish ones, but the tenant is expected to fit the place at great expense. Rent is also much cheaper and leases much longer because tenant has to recoup his/her expenses and Wear&tear Irish/UK BS also does not fly: apartment has to be returned painted in a professional way and in the same conditions it was rented out. Again Irish legislation has incorporated a status quo of fully furnished apartments or houses and most Irish tenants really do not have the mentality to deal with: (a) a long lease of 8-10 years (b) maintenance of the place. The ones who do are actually called buyers :D

If OP is a professional landlord (which it appears he is not), he should immediately issue warning notice followed by eviction if "improvements" are not reversed. His tenants are going though a very dangerous path (dangerous for the landlord). I had a tenant in 2015 (much worse than the ones of the OP) who made some serious changes (new tiling of bathroom and kitchen up to ceiling, because he could not bother to open the windows) without my permission and then he had the audacity to send me the bill to pay. Guess what: he was quickly evicted and RTB adjudicator fully approved. I said it before: the law in Ireland is (rightly so) very much against tenants who perform repairs/renovations without permission and/or who do not pay rent, the problem is the appeal system, but the RTA is (rightly so) quite strict on these issues.

professore · 12-10-2018 5:16pm

GGTrek wrote: »

The materials and workmanship of the rented apartments are surely better than most Irish ones, but the tenant is expected to fit the place at great expense.

Rent is insanely expensive in Ireland and UK compared to most places in Europe. Rent is a Great Expense. A couple of grand would get you kitted out with furniture and appliances which you then own. People are paying that here every month in rent!

GGTrek wrote: »

Rent is also much cheaper and leases much longer because tenant has to recoup his/her expenses and Wear&tear Irish/UK BS also does not fly: apartment has to be returned painted in a professional way and in the same conditions it was rented out. Again Irish legislation has incorporated a status quo of fully furnished apartments or houses and most Irish tenants really do not have the mentality to deal with: (a) a long lease of 8-10 years (b) maintenance of the place. The ones who do are actually called buyers :D

If rent was €800 - €1000 month for a family size house or apartment with secure tenancy and inflation linked rent increases - as it is in many parts of Europe - then that would drastically change the landscape. I would never consider renting long term here but would quite happily do it in parts of Europe.

GGTrek · 12-10-2018 5:32pm

With labour and material, a cheap fit out of a 1 bed apartment with all appliances in Dublin will cost in the region of 8k, more likely 10k (for a landlord this is a great expense that will take up 8 years to discount just from income tax, while for USC it is like you never spent such money!

(USC is a real Irish joke!)). Most tenants just do not undestand labour costs in Ireland and how long you have to wait for the contractors to actually perform the job. Nowadays I have a contractor that always tries to fit my requests in his calendar with 2-3 weeks notice (even if he just comes 2 days a week), but it is a business relationship you build over years. For a one-off in Dublin you can wait up to 3 months!

GGTrek · 12-10-2018 5:32pm

Duplicated

Ray Palmer · 12-10-2018 7:20pm

professore wrote: »

I don't think you understand. The tenants don't leave their stuff behind, they take it all with them. It's their stuff !!!! Why would they buy fridges, dishwashers, beds, sofas etc and leave them with you???? You don't provide any furniture!

Easier for everyone involved. For a landlord, you walk in and see if everything is clean and empty and then you're good to go. Here all your stuff could have hidden damage or stuff hidden everywhere.

For a tenant, much harder for the landlord to withhold a deposit by saying that the tenant broke or lost stuff that wasn't there in the first place.

I don't think you understand I am telling you what happens here.

Standard practice from tenants here is to not pay the last months rent and then leave not looking for the deposit leaving damage, rubbish and anything they don't want any more. I have had washing machines, beds, clothes, rubbish left behind.

I have to get rid of all of that and it is not cheap nor quick so I lose rent along with extra cost.

We aren't Germany with all their laws. Improve the laws to protect landlords and then you can change other things

Garibaldi? · 12-10-2018 9:38pm

I remember having tenants and I didnt check the attic before they left. After cleaning it out I was able to climb down a hill of clothes etc onto the landing. Didn't need the ladder. Not such a tragedy because the cost of the skip was tax allowable. Messing about with gas or electricity is a whole different ball-game.

13-10-2018 11:54am

crossmolinalad wrote: »

Cant understand that the irish want to live , sit , eat of or sleep on the "rubbish" from someone else
Every house I have rented here I refurbished them all getting rid of the horrible Magnolia walls ugly flowering or horrible colored carpets , wonderfull horrible "stars and stripes" curtains , chubby lampshades on cord at the sealing ,dirty whitegoods wich some has seen worldwar2 , beds where unknown people sleep in "burnt in" 4 rings hob and oven
No thanks everything out and own stuff in
And no its no theft because when I moving out he gets al of his "nice" stuf back on the places where I found it
And from all of the houses I rented the landlords all have paid me for the flooring curtains and the ceiling lights when I left the house
This house where I live in now gots a bit further
Did put in a brand new bathroom old one was dirty not be able to clean and from the seventies
He wanted to do it himselves but then I had to move out (the law I believe) so I said no thanks and did it myself by a qualified builder/plummer

there is a nice stove with backboiler and radiators in it but im working on daytime so last winter I bought 3 storage heaters and replaced them where they ever were in the past , all the connections and the night meter were still there so no extreme improvements
if he wants it I take them out again and repaint the wall if I move out

I would never spend a cent in a rented place, when I rented I wanted fully furnished like the vast majority of people as it wa simply a temporary place to live until I was buying my own place. I never even rented other than houseshares and was perfectly happy sleeping in a mattress that probably 10 other people slept in etc, it was far more preferable than paying for my own.

I said it earlier and I’ll say it again, if I was the op I would be evicting the tenants immediately and I see it’s as extremely foolish not to do so. The last thing you enat is tenants who think it’s their house.

Graces7 · 13-10-2018 12:06pm

Adam Square Sliver wrote: »

I would never spend a cent in a rented place, when I rented I wanted fully furnished like the vast majority of people as it wa simply a temporary place to live until I was buying my own place. I never even rented other than houseshares and was perfectly happy sleeping in a mattress that probably 10 other people slept in etc, it was far more preferable than paying for my own.

I said it earlier and I’ll say it again, if I was the op I would be evicting the tenants immediately and I see it’s as extremely foolish not to do so.

The last thing you enat is tenants who think it’s their house.

really?

crossmolinalad · 13-10-2018 12:40pm

Adam Square Sliver wrote: »

I would never spend a cent in a rented place, when I rented I wanted fully furnished like the vast majority of people as it wa simply a temporary place to live until I was buying my own place. I never even rented other than houseshares and was perfectly happy sleeping in a mattress that probably 10 other people slept in etc, it was far more preferable than paying for my own.

I said it earlier and I’ll say it again, if I was the op I would be evicting the tenants immediately and I see it’s as extremely foolish not to do so. The last thing you enat is tenants who think it’s their house.

don't like the taste of a landlord , they don't have a taste of decorations
don't know why they doing it that way for a tenant , they wont do the same in their own house
Houses where I lived in , the most were cheap furniture or bought on a second hand place
never had a decent washing machine , it was that small even a simple blanket od duvet didn't fit in it and most of them were damaged or dirty filled with dog/cat hear ect
No thanks , keep your "rubbish" im a clean person myself and want a clean and neat and fresh house to live in and not a dirt bin from a last tenant wich is okay with a landlord to rent out again

Sleeper12 · 13-10-2018 1:38pm

The thread must be almost a week running now. What did your solicitor have to say about it OP?

pasquale83 · 14-10-2018 8:50am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The thread must be almost a week running now. What did your solicitor have to say about it OP?

Still awaiting reply from the solicitor. Hopefully on Monday will have some news.

14-10-2018 9:58am

pasquale83 wrote: »

Still awaiting reply from the solicitor. Hopefully on Monday will have some news.

Make an appointment, discuss it fully and dont leave until you have decided exactly what to do.
Waiting for responses will probably result in a letter in about a month beginning; "Unfortunately, as the tenancy is now 6 months old....".

pasquale83 · 14-10-2018 10:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

Make an appointment, discuss it fully and dont leave until you have decided exactly what to do.
Waiting for responses will probably result in a letter in about a month beginning; "Unfortunately, as the tenancy is now 6 months old....".

thanks for the advice - I am not in the country so need to rely on e-mails and phone calls unfortunately.

Svetkin · 15-10-2018 6:55pm

Do you have an official contract with them? If so than you shouldn't worry... especially if they didn't destroy the house but made it better and are still paying rent in time... They have no rights on the house at all, they are just fixing some things and that's it.
I have a friend who had a real estate in Italy through Tranio and he was renting it for short terms and he was so pissed off after people were leaving... Literally after some people you had to fix walls and buy new things for the kitchen. He gave up fixing it all and now just rents it out only for long period of time :)

pasquale83 · 16-10-2018 3:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Make an appointment, discuss it fully and dont leave until you have decided exactly what to do.
Waiting for responses will probably result in a letter in about a month beginning; "Unfortunately, as the tenancy is now 6 months old....".

Still wasn't able to get a feedback from the solicitor. Unbelievable.

Anyway, I was just speculating. If I want to sell the house, being one of the reason I lease can be ended, shouldn't I mind that much of the part-4 kick in deadline, correct?

4ensic15 · 16-10-2018 7:29pm

pasquale83 wrote: »

Still wasn't able to get a feedback from the solicitor. Unbelievable.

Anyway, I was just speculating. If I want to sell the house, being one of the reason I lease can be ended, shouldn't I mind that much of the part-4 kick in deadline, correct?

Part 4 makes things more awkward. Your Termination Notice will be more complicated. It is easier to make a mistake and have the notice found to be invalid. In any case, you have bad tenants and should get rid of them straight away before they make things worse.

the_syco · 16-10-2018 7:54pm

pasquale83 wrote: »

Still wasn't able to get a feedback from the solicitor. Unbelievable.

Get a new solicitor?

pasquale83 wrote: »

Anyway, I was just speculating. If I want to sell the house, being one of the reason I lease can be ended, shouldn't I mind that much of the part-4 kick in deadline, correct?

Thus far, they've ignored the lease, so I'd say they'll ignore any eviction notices.

Get a solicitor who'll help evict them before the 6 moths is up, or prepare for a long drawn-out affair.

4ensic15 · 16-10-2018 8:10pm

Some solicitors are woefully ignorant of the tenancies legislation and have to get advice from a barrister. That is probably what is causing the delay.

pasquale83 · 16-10-2018 8:37pm

the_syco wrote: »

Get a new solicitor?

Thus far, they've ignored the lease, so I'd say they'll ignore any eviction notices.

Get a solicitor who'll help evict them before the 6 moths is up, or prepare for a long drawn-out affair.

Yes, I've contacted another one.

What happens if they ignore the eviction notice? How can I get rid of them in case that happens?

pasquale83 · 16-10-2018 8:40pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Part 4 makes things more awkward. Your Termination Notice will be more complicated. It is easier to make a mistake and have the notice found to be invalid. In any case, you have bad tenants and should get rid of them straight away before they make things worse.

I know. I will try to get advice ASAP. But I think they might not be happy to end the tenancy now and they won't leave the property even before the 6 months are passed.

What can I do if they ignore any eviction notice? Is there a legal way to kick them out?

Tenants made multiple changes to the property

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