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Irish tourist scratches his name into the wall at Auschwitz

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Comments

  • #182
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭indioblack


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Well put.

    I don't think it should or will cost him a job though. If he had attempted to vandalise the place or daub neo nazi graffiti or something, then he'd be looking at jail time and job loss / death threats / social isolation. He just did something very moronic following the disrespect of other morons. He admitted it right away and said he would accept whatever punishment deemed fit. A momentary lapse of reason that hopefully reminds people to be less selfish and thoughtless.

    For those feeling outraged about a few puns, remember that one of the great human coping mechanisms is humour. Often dark humour. It can be salutary, keeping the true horror of what happened in the memory. Some of the greatest jewish comedians and comic writers have reflected on the holocaust and the war, Larry David, Mel Brooks, David Baddiel, Jerry Seinfeld, Sarah Silverman and many more have done so to greater or lesser effect.

    One of the most effective I ever heard of was a line Woody Allen wrote for a character in one of his films:

    "Do you care even about the Holocaust or do you think it never happened??!”

    “Not only do I know that we lost six million, but the scary thing is records are made to be broken.....”
    I recall Bruce Marshall's book about the British secret agent who was captured and sent to Buchenwald. He was suprised at the dark humour used by some of the inmates - Mel brooks would have approved. But this was humour used by the inmates themselves about their own ghastly situation.
    Some years ago I tried to explain the comedy of "Dad's Army" to a Polish workmate. He didn't think it funny at all.
    "There's nothing in bad taste as long as it's funny". Maybe.


  • #183
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,019 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    What a PanzarKnacker


  • #184
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Bob24 wrote: »
    I think lack of respect/consideration for the past and pure edonism is a gradual slope our society is going through and different people are at different stages.
    The ancient Greeks thought and worked about the exact same thing. Every culture does. Every culture thinks the past was somehow better, with more respect going on, current days are seen as a step back and the future is seen as a concern. The youth, or at least the generations without direct living experience of the horrors of previous generations also tend to lose some of the reverence for them. They're less affected by them. This is a good thing in my humble. We should remember and honour the past, especially as a warning to the future, but we shouldn't be trapped, enslaved to that past either, as that can bring horrors of its own

    Cultural icons change with time too. For the war generation in the west Belsen was the horror, not Auschwitz. It ended up on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. It started to get more attention in the 1970's, but more so in the 90's.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #185
    MarkY91
    Registered Users Posts: 7,067 ✭✭✭MarkY91


    38 years old? I figured it would be someone under 21.

    Such a disrespectful act at the site of one of the worst atrocities in human history, if not worst.

    I was there a couple of years ago, it still had a death atmosphere to it. I don't know how anyone could just decide to deface a wall there


  • #186
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The ancient Greeks thought and worked about the exact same thing. Every culture does. Every culture thinks the past was somehow better, with more respect going on, current days are seen as a step back and the future is seen as a concern. The youth, or at least the generations without direct living experience of the horrors of previous generations also tend to lose some of the reverence for them. They're less affected by them. This is a good thing in my humble. We should remember and honour the past, especially as a warning to the future, but we shouldn't be trapped, enslaved to that past either, as that can bring horrors of its own

    Cultural icons change with time too. For the war generation in the west Belsen was the horror, not Auschwitz. It ended up on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. It started to get more attention in the 1970's, but more so in the 90's.

    I agree that what is considered icons of the past can change over time as society evolves.

    However something which IMO shouldn’t change is a complete respect by everyone for what is currently considered an icon of the past in the society you live in or you are visiting - especially if it is a sad and memorial past (and in 2018 Western societies as well as in Polish society in particular, Auschwitz very much is part of that category). And this is where I was trying to explain we are shifting in the wrong direction with people considering it as just another background for today’s smiling selfie.


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  • #187
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,228 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The ancient Greeks thought and worked about the exact same thing. Every culture does. Every culture thinks the past was somehow better, with more respect going on, current days are seen as a step back and the future is seen as a concern. The youth, or at least the generations without direct living experience of the horrors of previous generations also tend to lose some of the reverence for them. They're less affected by them. This is a good thing in my humble. We should remember and honour the past, especially as a warning to the future, but we shouldn't be trapped, enslaved to that past either, as that can bring horrors of its own

    Cultural icons change with time too. For the war generation in the west Belsen was the horror, not Auschwitz. It ended up on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. It started to get more attention in the 1970's, but more so in the 90's.

    People where I live planted trees for timber,150 years ago, ready soon enough but not for a few more decades.

    Cathedrals were built with 300 year work period planned.

    Now it is all for the quarter or short few years.


  • #188
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,228 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Bob24 wrote: »
    And this is where I was trying to explain we are shifting in the wrong direction with people considering it as just another background for today’s smiling selfie.

    While I would never take selfie there. It is sinking further in to time.

    To say it to an Asian it doesn't register.


  • #189
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Danzy wrote: »
    While I would never take selfie there. It is sinking further in to time.

    To say it to an Asian it doesn't register.

    I actually visited the place with two Chinese in their 30s and both were extremely respectful and interested in the actual history. It’s more a matter of mentality and deciding to care about it or not - when you go there it is obvious what it represents and while an Asian might not feel as personally connected to it as a European, no one has to be a rocket scientist to understand the significance of the place so there is no saying “I didn’t know”. And equally a European visiting a Nanjing massacre memorial would be an idiot not to behave respectfully there knowing what it represents for the society they are visiting.


  • #190
    harry Bailey esq
    Registered Users Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭harry Bailey esq


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The need to mark one's name is a very common and strong human need. Especially in places of high cultural relevance, no matter the relevance itself.

    Go to any historic site, even going back thousands of years and you will be nearly guaranteed to find "Kilroy was here" type graffiti going back many centuries. The only writing* so far found on the Great Pyramid of Egypt is graffiti of this type, written at the time of construction(and how we know who it was actually built for). It's also covered with names from the many centuries in between and up to today. There is thousand year old graffiti to be found in Newgrange and a few 17th, 18th and 19th century scribblings too.

    If there is already an area covered with names, this acts as a magnet for more names to follow and makes it seem somewhat accepted as a group effort(EG the wall of the Abbey Road studios covered in Beatle's fan scribblings). Even in such a place as Auschwitz. A blasphemy like Auschwitz can even add to the draw. Beyond the ego souvenir aspect, scratching a name into such a horror can be felt as a weird benediction and a memento mori and a reminder that you're at least alive to scribble it as a witness.

    Such places evoke many feelings. Our culture possesses it as a thing for us all. An individual may seek to possess or add to it on the personal level. Only a few years back a few idiots made off with the camp entrance sign. An icon indeed. It seemed they didn't steal it to sell it, but just to possess it as a cultural totem(IIRC it's now indoors in a museum and a replica takes its former place).

    So while I in no way condone such a thing, nor would even begin consider it myself, I can see that it doesn't require an explanation or excuse like "special needs" for someone to do such a thing.





    *unusually it's the only such structure of ancient Egypt that is devoid of hieroglyphs.

    Agreed. That's why dogs piss on poles wibbser


  • #191
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Bob24 wrote: »
    I actually visited the place with two Chinese in their 30s and both were extremely respectful and interested in the actual history. It’s more a matter of mentality and deciding to care about it or not - when you go there it is obvious what it represents and while an Asian might not feel as personally connected to it as a European, no one has to be a rocket scientist to understand the significance of the place so there is no saying “I didn’t know”. And equally a European visiting a Nanjing massacre memorial would be an idiot not to behave respectfully there knowing what it represents for the society they are visiting.
    Oh I agree, I just outlined why someone would do such a thing and why it doesn't automatically require either unusual stupidity or unusual malice.
    Bob24 wrote: »
    I was in Auschwitz 2 years ago and while not a majority you wouldn’t believe the amount of adults who were there taking a selfie with a smiley face under the “arbeit macht frei” sign or in a death chamber.
    Which is interesting in another way: both the sign and the gas chambers at Auschwitz are reproductions. The sign because they wanted to preserve the original and stop it being stolen, the gas chamber was a post war reconstruction by the Soviets as the Germans had dynamited the actual ones in an attempt to cover their crime(originals survive at Dachau and Majdanek. Belsen never had one). It shows the power of symbolism. One group take selfies of their dumb smiles, another is naturally repelled by that, both in front of duplicates.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • #192
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    First the guy going onto the Ryanair flight his way,
    Then Peter Casey
    And now this guy

    There must be something in the water


  • #193
    Humphrey BoaGart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Humphrey BoaGart


    The Polish authorities must be fuhrerious.


  • #194
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Ignorant.... primitive.... ******* utterly shameful and despicable.


  • #195
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    indioblack wrote: »
    I recall Bruce Marshall's book about the British secret agent who was captured and sent to Buchenwald. He was suprised at the dark humour used by some of the inmates - Mel brooks would have approved. But this was humour used by the inmates themselves about their own ghastly situation.
    Some years ago I tried to explain the comedy of "Dad's Army" to a Polish workmate. He didn't think it funny at all.
    "There's nothing in bad taste as long as it's funny". Maybe.

    Never found Dad's Army funny either.


  • #196
    wingsof daun
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭wingsof daun


    Auschwitz is the biggest fraud of a memorial in history. The only gas chamber was put there by Stalin in, guess what year...1947. Two years after the Holocaust. The signs in Auschwitz in 1992 were taken down (some) because the info was being presented as fact to millions of tourists but was totally false. Whatever about the other camps, I cant stand Auschwitz for the above reasons. We had Amy The Holocaust Hubermann on Tubridy, it just goes on and on and on, it is nauseating. Seriously. Remember our own history. The Holocaust is a fking religion that could go on till the end of time.


  • #197
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    wingsof daun wrote:
    Auschwitz is the biggest fraud of a memorial in history. The only gas chamber was put there by Stalin in, guess what year...1947. Two years after the Holocaust. The signs in Auschwitz in 1992 were taken down (some) because the info was being presented as fact by millions of tourists but was totally false. Whatever about the other camps, I cant stand Auschwitz for the above reasons. We had Amy The Holocaust Hubermann on Tubridy, it just goes on and on and on, it is nauseating. Seriously. Remember our own history. The Holocaust is a fking religion that could go on till the end of time.


    Some of the buildings maybe 'fake' however the killings were not. It happened.


  • #198
    wingsof daun
    Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭wingsof daun


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Some of the buildings maybe 'fake' however the killings were not. It happened.

    If there was no gas chamber there during the Holocaust (at Auschwitz) how did the killings happen? And on that scale? I was never told people died from disease, lack of supplies or exposure at Auschwitz yet that is the most realistic answer.


  • #199
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    wingsof daun wrote: »
    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Some of the buildings maybe 'fake' however the killings were not. It happened.

    I was never told people died from disease, lack of supplies or exposure at Auschwitz yet that is the most realistic answer.

    Oh! That makes it all right so! Thanks for clearing that up. I'm now reappraising my views on the Nazi's policy towards the Jews and other groups that died at their hands. Clearly, they were a great bunch of lads after all.


  • #200
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Maybe people should have a look here before posting on what did or did not happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp

    It quotes an estimate of 1.1 million people killed at the Auschwitz camps (the article has more details on when and how the killings happened which is probably better for everyone to go review themselves only if they want to).

    Not saying Wikipedia is the absolute truth and people can question it if they want and provide other sources, but it seems like to me a bit of self-documentation would be a good thing before anyone posts about what happened or didn’t happen there.


  • #201
    Dan Jaman
    Registered Users Posts: 38,744 ✭✭✭✭Dan Jaman


    wingsof daun wrote: »
    Auschwitz is the biggest fraud of a memorial in history. The only gas chamber was put there by Stalin in, guess what year...1947. Two years after the Holocaust. The signs in Auschwitz in 1992 were taken down (some) because the info was being presented as fact to millions of tourists but was totally false. Whatever about the other camps, I cant stand Auschwitz for the above reasons. We had Amy The Holocaust Hubermann on Tubridy, it just goes on and on and on, it is nauseating. Seriously. Remember our own history. The Holocaust is a fking religion that could go on till the end of time.


    Not sure whether you're trying to deny the awfulness that was the Holocaust or not, or whether or not Auschwitz was a death camp.
    It was certainly a death camp, but mainly as a result of the work-to-death policy of the slave regime in place around that area. There were various manufacturies in place, all drawing labour from the slave pool of Auschwitz camps (plural - it's a huge complex). Many thousands died there, in horrible conditions, but it wasn't actually a mass-extermination camp like a few others. Whatever, the net result was the same. 
    Вашему собственному бычьему дерьму нельзя верить - V Putin




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  • #202
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    wingsof daun wrote:
    If there was no gas chamber there during the Holocaust (at Auschwitz) how did the killings happen? And on that scale? I was never told people died from disease, lack of supplies or exposure at Auschwitz yet that is the most realistic answer.

    Auschwitz was a small camp, Birkenau was where most of the killings took place many went directly to the gas chambers others were worked to death at various factories operated by such household names as IG Faben others allowed to die of starvation and diease, along with the smaller camps such as Plasow, Triblinka.


  • #203
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    wingsof daun wrote: »
    If there was no gas chamber there during the Holocaust (at Auschwitz) how did the killings happen? And on that scale? I was never told people died from disease, lack of supplies or exposure at Auschwitz yet that is the most realistic answer.

    That was towards the end when supply routes were cut off by the Allies. I believe there was also an outbreak of TB.

    The Germans demolished gas chambers as the Allies drew near and got rid of all their records.

    The mock gas chamber on display today is a converted Air Raid shelter.
    They're open about that and will tell you if you ask.


  • #204
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Maybe people should have a look here before posting on what did or did not happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp

    It quotes an estimate of 1.1 million people killed at the Auschwitz camps (the article has more details on when and how the killings happened which is probably better for everyone to go review themselves only if they want to).

    Not saying Wikipedia is the absolute truth and people can question it if they want and provide other sources, but it seems like to me a bit of self-documentation would be a good thing before anyone posts about what happened or didn’t happen there.

    They revise the Auschwitz number all the time. It was 2 million when I visited in 2013.

    Nobody will ever be entirely sure exactly how many died there.


  • #205
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 31,816 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Auschwitz was a small camp, Birkenau was where most of the killings took place many went directly to the gas chambers others were worked to death at various factories operated by such household names as IG Faben others allowed to die of starvation and diease, along with the smaller camps such as Plasow, Triblinka.
    That is true, however I would kind of in my head consider Auschwitz and Birkenau (wasnt it also called Auschwitz 2?) one and the same as they are right beside each other.
    Visiting them was one of the overwhelming experiences in my life, the rooms full of suitcases, spectacles, kids clothes, shoes, it is a truly heartbreaking place.

    The mind boggles that people could go around scratching messages onto walls in a place like this.


  • #206
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

    Nobody will ever be entirely sure exactly how many died there.

    Agree. But but what there is no doubt about is that mass extermination did happen in the Auschwitz camps (all of them as a group), which is what seemed to be questionned above (not by you) and why I thought it was worth positing an estimate/reference before the discussion goes any further. I actually find the thread is getting ackward :-/


  • #207
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    gmisk wrote:
    That is true, however I would kind of in my head consider Auschwitz and Bikenau one and the same as they are right beside each other. Visiting them was one of the overwhelming experiences in my life, the rooms full of suitcases, spectacles, kids clothes, shoes, it is a truly heartbreaking place.


    Actually there is a couple of miles between the two camps. Birkenau or Auschwitz II is the one people would be most familiar with due to the films. The spectacles and possessions are nearly all in Auschwitz. The most heart breaking for me was the 'Sauna' at Birkenau where the photos of the victims are on display. The photo of a baby on a sheepskin rug was the most poignant.
    Both camps are terrible but at the second camp the errie silence is distrubing.


  • #208
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 31,816 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Actually there is a couple of miles between the two camps. Birkenau or Auschwitz II is the one people would be most familiar with due to the films. The spectacles and possessions are nearly all in Auschwitz. The most heart breaking for me was the 'Sauna' at Birkenau where the photos of the victims are on display. The photo of a baby on a sheepskin rug was the most poignant.
    Both camps are terrible but at the second camp the errie silence is distrubing.
    Ah you are right its maybe about 5 or 6 years since I went.

    That is so true about the silence in the second camp, I remember you couldn't hear anything at all, no birds even both heart breaking places really.
    I visited a place called the topography of terror fairly recently in Berlin, it was terrifically well done, very respectful and factual.


  • #209
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    gmisk wrote:
    Ah you are right its maybe about 5 or 6 years since I went.


    Been there 3 times, took a private tour the 3rd time. Our party on leaving was brought down a winding road to show us one of the preserved cattle wagons they used for transport. It is a horrible but I believe necessary place if that makes sense.
    I'm in Berlin next September I must look out for that installation you mention


  • #210
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 31,816 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Been there 3 times, took a private tour the 3rd time. Our party on leaving was brought down a winding road to show us one of the preserved cattle wagons they used for transport. It is a horrible but I believe necessary place if that makes sense.
    I'm in Berlin next September I must look out for that installation you mention
    Couldn't agree with that more.
    I did a private tour the time I went as well, I would think you definitely see areas larger groups dont.

    The topography of terror definitely doesn't give you that same emotional impact that Auschwitz or Birkenau would but its so well done, factual and gives you an idea of the scale and timeline involved. I think its a real credit to Germany that a place like that exists, rather than trying to deny or in anyway play down what happened.


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  • #211
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    wingsof daun wrote: »
    Auschwitz is the biggest fraud of a memorial in history. The only gas chamber was put there by Stalin in, guess what year...1947. Two years after the Holocaust. The signs in Auschwitz in 1992 were taken down (some) because the info was being presented as fact to millions of tourists but was totally false. Whatever about the other camps, I cant stand Auschwitz for the above reasons. We had Amy The Holocaust Hubermann on Tubridy, it just goes on and on and on, it is nauseating. Seriously. Remember our own history. The Holocaust is a fking religion that could go on till the end of time.

    I am curious, why did Stalin install a gas chamber after the war?


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