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Extreme noise level - creche

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    #92
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    OP I feel for you. We have a playground in the middle of our courtyard and on weekends and holidays as soon as the sun comes up some doors open and some kids are out there screaming and shouting until after dark. Never an adult to be seen. We've had a lot of damage done to property but apparently "children are just children" and "I didn't see it (because you weren't watching your child) and you can't prove it was my child"

    As you said, the sound echoes off the buildings, here it sounds like an army of kids and not just 6-8 of them. I love rainy mornings because they're blissfully quiet.

    In both cases the fault lies with the adults responsible for the children, the crèche management in your case. Have a word with them, you've nothing to lose.


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    #93
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You asked where people got the idea from, it was from the OP that you just quoted.
    Seems like you would have known that answer before posting your question if you had read the thread first?

    Why would anyone get the idea from there, since it's clearly stated it's separate building?


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    #94
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Why would anyone get the idea from there, since it's clearly stated it's separate building?

    The creche is in the courtyard of an apartment block.
    The problem is the noise created when the kids are outside.

    The creche itself could be on the 71st floor and the same problem would exist.

    What are you not getting about this?:confused:


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    #95
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Why would anyone get the idea from there, since it's clearly stated it's separate building?

    The creche I bring my grandchild to is on the ground floor of a three story apartment block . The yard is to the back of the building and the kids are often outside . Mind you the teachers and creche workers never encourage them to scream ! In fact they do the opposite and try keep them calm and playing .


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    #96
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    GreeBo wrote: »
    What are you not getting about this?:confused:
    One of the things I don't understand is why would anyone write a snotty reply without actually properly reading op.


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    #97
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,097 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Why is it so hard for some to people to understand that the creche being in the middle of the apartment blocks and surrounded on all sides will amplify the noise quite significantly?

    There is definitely a happy medium between having creches in the local community, and having a creche in the exact spot you would choose if your aim was to keep as many people awake as you possibly could.

    If that creche was operating at those same apartments but in a unit facing away from the blocks rather than right in the middle then there would be a significant reduction in noise disruption for basically the exact same service. I think that is what people are trying to explain, the fact that putting screaming children in a noise tunnel was not good planning and that two seconds thought offers plausible alternatives.


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    #98
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Why is it so hard for some to people to understand that the creche being in the middle of the apartment blocks and surrounded on all sides will amplify the noise quite significantly?

    There is definitely a happy medium between having creches in the local community, and having a creche in the exact spot you would choose if your aim was to keep as many people awake as you possibly could.

    If that creche was operating at those same apartments but in a unit facing away from the blocks rather than right in the middle then there would be a significant reduction in noise disruption for basically the exact same service. I think that is what people are trying to explain, the fact that putting screaming children in a noise tunnel was not good planning and that two seconds thought offers plausible alternatives.

    Plus the shouty creche workers encouraging kids to scream is way out of line in my opinion . And totally unnecessary anyway


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    #99
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Play white noise when you go down to sleep, play it loud. You'll be surprised how quickly you get used to it.

    Complaining about the sounds of children playing during daytime hours in a residential area is an absolute waste of your time. And it's unreasonable, even if you it is causing you genuine issues. As a shift worker though the onus is on you to account for the difficulties that daytime sleeping brings. This is one of them.

    Trust me, kids don't need any encouragement to scream and make noise. What the creche workers say and do is irrelevant.


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    #100
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Sure kids maker noise playing, but they don't typically just scream all the time, they play.


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    #101
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Why is it so hard for some to people to understand that the creche being in the middle of the apartment blocks and surrounded on all sides will amplify the noise quite significantly?

    There is definitely a happy medium between having creches in the local community, and having a creche in the exact spot you would choose if your aim was to keep as many people awake as you possibly could.

    If that creche was operating at those same apartments but in a unit facing away from the blocks rather than right in the middle then there would be a significant reduction in noise disruption for basically the exact same service. I think that is what people are trying to explain, the fact that putting screaming children in a noise tunnel was not good planning and that two seconds thought offers plausible alternatives.

    I agree about amplifying the noise. I can't be sure but I think some of newer estates were required to put in a building for creche. I know the one my kids went to had three different providers renting the building but it was always for the same purpose. In op's case it's very likely creche was build as part of planning conditions or at least encouraged by the planning. However it wouldn't be the first time the execution and positioning of buildings is poor. But facilities for the neighbourhood have to be provided if you want to limit car travel. That's why I think op is more likely to get a result if he asks creche not to encourage the noise. As a parent though I wouldn't be happy for my kids to attend the creche where they don't play outside. I suspect majority of parents agree and I very much doubt creche will keep kids in for someone who is not their customer.


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    #102
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Yurple wrote: »
    It is between 08:30 and 09:00 in the morning until between 17:00 and 18:00 when the children are outside in the middle of the courtyard. It is not just 30 minutes. It is the entire day, 5 days a week.

    They also do not just go outside and play... several of the staff members open the doors and go: "CHILDREN LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOO! SCREAM CHILDREN SCREAM!!! I AM CHASING YOU!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA"

    She screams this on the top of her lungs every day ... possibly to make the children tired for the rest of the rest so it is easier to manage? I am unsure. The staff members are as loud as possible and make the children run around and scream their heads off :(

    There's really no need for encouraging children to scream so I do think that the creche are out of order in their practices. Yes, children will play and yell to their friends or have an occasional screech or bawl but they don't need encouragement!

    Add into that the tunnel effect amplifies it. I did nightshifts for a time and it unfortunately coincided with extensive roadworks outside my bedroom window so you have my sympathies.

    Is there a residents committee or organisation? Maybe a politely worded letter from a group of residents could carry more weight - you don't expect the kids to be soundless but you do want the teacher to stop encouraging them to screech and scream for no reason. Particularly as the setting means it's amplified.

    Here's a bit from Barnados about the benefits of outdoor play for preschoolers so you might be able to quote something useful there that shows that encouraging them to scream and screech is bloody stupid is not something creche's do. The booklet I've linked does mention that with outdoor play children can be louder and make more noise, but it does not state that they should be encouraged to be louder than they would normally in an outdoor setting. Maybe someone experienced in childcare can explain better than I.

    And there's no excuse for a grown adult in a professional role to join in with the screeching. I don't think I'd like a creche who teaches my child that that kind of outdoor play, it seems very...lazy or something?


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    #103
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,240 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    OP it might be worth your while to check the planning permission conditions for the creche.
    The file may be available online in the planning department section of the local authority website.
    Failing that you can call in to the planning department in person and check the planning register to obtain the file number.
    Once you have the file number you can request to view the file.
    There may be a charge for this but it won't break the bank.
    Bring a notebook and transcribe any relevant information.

    The staff will help you.

    If you find that the creche are in breach of any conditions you can lodge a complaint with the enforcement section.


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    #104
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #105
    jeepcj
    Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭jeepcj


    Yurple wrote: »
    Just so people are aware: I have absolutely no problem with a creche being part of this apartment complex. It is in a commercial unit and it is a business. It is also a great service for parents...

    What is very annoying is that from the moment the creche is open, they put a group of children in the courtyard play area. This play area is in the court yard surrounded by 6 story apartment blocks on all sides. It echo's all sounds. They stay out here until closing because they rotate different age groups i think. It used to be 17:00 but it now becoming 18:30 until they bring them inside.

    If they kept the children inside to play and only put them outside occasionally it would be absolutely no problem.

    All children are loving it! They are running around like crazy, screaming, fighting, screeching, crying, etc. There is only 1 staff member outside most of the time on their phone.

    Anyway, thanks for all those people that replied. I will try wax earplugs and triple glazing (already have double glazing).
    Can anybody advise what best to do with those air vent strips above the windows? Should I put tape over them to completely shut them and block noise?

    I highly doubt you will be able to change the windows to triple glazing as you only own inside the apartment, it will be up to the management company to pay for and replace windows


  • Options
    #106
    rizdub
    Registered Users Posts: 55 ✭✭rizdub


    seamus wrote: »
    Play white noise when you go down to sleep, play it loud. You'll be surprised how quickly you get used to it.

    Complaining about the sounds of children playing during daytime hours in a residential area is an absolute waste of your time. And it's unreasonable, even if you it is causing you genuine issues. As a shift worker though the onus is on you to account for the difficulties that daytime sleeping brings. This is one of them.

    Trust me, kids don't need any encouragement to scream and make noise. What the creche workers say and do is irrelevant.


    i agree with this advise of using white noise... i have small kids and when they are sleeping during the day i use portable fan to create some white noise so that they dont wake up due to cooking and TV noise etc..


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    #107
    DoozerT6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,589 ✭✭✭DoozerT6


    jeepcj wrote: »
    I highly doubt you will be able to change the windows to triple glazing as you only own inside the apartment, it will be up to the management company to pay for and replace windows

    I had a serious problem with one of my windows, and when I contacted the management company they said it was up to me to replace it! So I did, out of my own pocket. I think the mgt co are only responsible for the actual structure/outer shell itself (and I imagine all communal areas), and things like replacing windows or patio doors in each individual apartment are up to the owner. No harm to contact them though, just to clarify.


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    #108
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    How about requesting some noise buffering in the outside area? For example, in the Elysian complex in cork, they use water features and trees in the courtyards instead of concrete, to buffer the traffic noise. Something natural like that does a great job. Concrete will just echo everything around. Some hedging, trees, plants or water will all absorb sound, break it up and deaden it down for you. 
    I think it's great the children are outside, not locked indoors. Best thing for them. Disturbing the neighbours is not good, and it doesn't sound like you're being unreasonable.

    You and the children, and everyone else are part of a community, and finding ways to co-exist is the key!


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    #109
    Gems stone
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭Gems stone


    Hi did you have any resolution with the crèche. I have a crèche just over my garden wall & the children are outside from 8 in morning until 6 (70 kids)they’ve even put in a gazebo for when it rains!! Yes they’re encouraged to scream constantly at the top of their lungs. When I approached them they told me that I couldn’t expect them to be quiet. I’m now considering moving as with the wonderful summer we’ve just had I’m absolutely sick of it! Any legal information appreciated as that’s another option but I don’t think there’s any legislation for crèches creating noise!


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    #110
    Yurple
    Registered Users Posts: 391 ✭✭Yurple


    Gems stone wrote: »
    Hi did you have any resolution with the crèche. I have a crèche just over my garden wall & the children are outside from 8 in morning until 6 (70 kids)they’ve even put in a gazebo for when it rains!! Yes they’re encouraged to scream constantly at the top of their lungs. When I approached them they told me that I couldn’t expect them to be quiet. I’m now considering moving as with the wonderful summer we’ve just had I’m absolutely sick of it! Any legal information appreciated as that’s another option but I don’t think there’s any legislation for crèches creating noise!

    Hi! Sadly no resolution whatsoever and it has actually gotten worse. The care workers now actually ask the children to all see who can scream the loudest and longest. I have even made a video just in case I need it in the future.

    A little girl screamed so loud and long she started crying afterwards and said her neck/throat hurts.

    I have contacted their management about this who responded to say they would pass it on to the location supervisor. Since then everything is worse. They come out earlier, stay out longer and later. They are also louder and more extreme. Almost like it has been done on purpose because I complaint.

    I cannot move since my apartment is still in negative equity so I am looking for a different job as that is the only resolution left. It is very difficult and makes life very stressful.


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    #111
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    You didn't mention about softening the sound echos, with trees, noise reduction foam etc?


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    #112
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    There is a huge difference between kids playing loudly and being encouraged to scream at the top of their lungs .What on earth is that all about ? Its neither good for the community or for the children ?

    If its in Dublin South County I know there is an environmental officer you can contact about noise or lighting pollution . I am sure other councils have the same . We contacted him regarding annoying lighting on a private industrial wall shining brightly into houses all night and he was extremely helpful on how we should proceed


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    #113
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,499 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Can you record it for us?
    I used to live 500m from a primary school and could here them in the yard at lunch time.
    I'd say this is a complete head wreck.


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    #114
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    There is a huge difference between kids playing loudly and being encouraged to scream at the top of their lungs .What on earth is that all about ? Its neither good for the community or for the children ?

    If its in Dublin South County I know there is an environmental officer you can contact about noise or lighting pollution . I am sure other councils have the same . We contacted him regarding annoying lighting on a private industrial wall shining brightly into houses all night and he was extremely helpful on how we should proceed


    If the council hold back, have a word with EPA.

    see

    https://www.epa.ie/


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    #115
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Some little girls do scream very loudly while playing, its always girls, boys seem to shout occasionally but not this full on loud screeching.

    Its the parents fault to be honest, they dont correct their children and the children dont realise how loud they are.

    The creche staff should be training the children too but ultimately if parents allow high pitched screaming at home then children will scream in creche too.


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    #116
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    tretorn wrote: »
    Some little girls do scream very loudly while playing, its always girls, boys seem to shout occasionally but not this full on loud screeching.

    Its the parents fault to be honest, they dont correct their children and the children dont realise how loud they are.

    The creche staff should be training the children too but ultimately if parents allow high pitched screaming at home then children will scream in creche too.

    Well according to the OP the creche staff are actively encouraging the children to scream as loud as they can
    Personally if a creche encouraged screaming like that I would complain about their management of small children


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    #117
    slavetothegrind
    Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭slavetothegrind


    OP secondary glazing internally is a solution for you.

    There is a soundproofing company in dublin that are apparrently good was a thread on their work i'll try find it for you.


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    #118
    Caliden
    Registered Users Posts: 5,982 ✭✭✭Caliden


    It's a crap route to go down but the district court could be an option.

    Encouraging kids to be as noisy as possible is just laziness on the creche's part (and I'm sure they're getting paid quite well if it's Dublin).


    Just record everything and make a note of the date you engaged with the creche then just file with the district court - http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-water-waste-and-environment-air-quality-monitoring-and-noise-control-noise/noisy


    I live beside a creche and thankfully I've never had to hear 30 kids screaming at the top of their lungs at 9am. Thankfully all I hear is them laughing which is a lot more peaceful that screams of bloody murder.


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    #119
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Yurple wrote: »
    Hi! Sadly no resolution whatsoever and it has actually gotten worse. The care workers now actually ask the children to all see who can scream the loudest and longest. I have even made a video just in case I need it in the future.

    A little girl screamed so loud and long she started crying afterwards and said her neck/throat hurts.

    I have contacted their management about this who responded to say they would pass it on to the location supervisor. Since then everything is worse. They come out earlier, stay out longer and later. They are also louder and more extreme. Almost like it has been done on purpose because I complaint.

    I cannot move since my apartment is still in negative equity so I am looking for a different job as that is the only resolution left. It is very difficult and makes life very stressful.

    Do you know much about the concept of airtightness? Maybe you have already looked into it but if not, have a look. If your airtightness is not great there may be easy gains that assist with noise reduction such as gaps in the window frames, power outlets, lighting and flooring. Alternatively improving airtightness be quite technical and expensive but it is worth checking


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    #120
    stinkbomb
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭stinkbomb


    tretorn wrote: »
    Some little girls do scream very loudly while playing, its always girls, boys seem to shout occasionally but not this full on loud screeching.

    Its the parents fault to be honest, they dont correct their children and the children dont realise how loud they are.

    The creche staff should be training the children too but ultimately if parents allow high pitched screaming at home then children will scream in creche too.

    To be fair thats not always true. I have a small screechy child that I am constantly correcting and telling to be quiet, stop that screech etc etc, they still do it when they get excited no matter how many times they were told not to.
    And if like here the creche workers are encouraging them to do it, how is that the parents fault, who are not there?


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