BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Hurrache · 11-10-2018 8:33am

Our minister for transport ladies and gentlemen. What a clown.

warning that it threatens to cut off his constituents from schools, hospitals and the city centre.

He said the BusConnects proposal was distressing people who would lose a direct commute, causing fears among parents about their children going to school and many of them were now planning to drive their children.

punisher5112 · 11-10-2018 8:49am

Hurrache wrote: »

Our minister for transport ladies and gentlemen. What a clown.

It's only he that wants his 44 kept so he can pretend on Twitter how amazing it is to travel to work....

In the real world 1030 isn't a commuter time for going to work.

He is a grade A posh plonker born with not only a silver spoon but gold bed.

Hurrache · 11-10-2018 9:18am

Look at me, I'm a commoner now
https://twitter.com/Shane_RossTD/status/816224443731243008

Wheety · 11-10-2018 9:47am

Hurrache wrote: »

Look at me, I'm a commoner now
https://twitter.com/Shane_RossTD/status/816224443731243008

Nice of them to put on an extra bus just for him. Probably had a Garda escort too.

He should try getting a bus from Lucan and see if he's still so chirpy.

cgcsb · 11-10-2018 9:58am

dumb dumb dumb dumb

Hotblack Desiato · 11-10-2018 11:23am

Sam Russell wrote: »

They could be rubber wheeled Luas trams with overhead electric supply.

They could be, but then the problems of sharing the road space with other traffic get exponentially worse, so what's the gain over putting in an actual Luas track?

Qrt · 11-10-2018 11:53am

I regret mentioning trolleybuses now.

cgcsb · 11-10-2018 12:12pm

Qrt wrote: »

I regret mentioning trolleybuses now.

Trolley Buses for all!!!! :P:P:P

Sam Russell · 11-10-2018 1:05pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They could be, but then the problems of sharing the road space with other traffic get exponentially worse, so what's the gain over putting in an actual Luas track?

Tarmac is cheaper than rail, plus is much more flexible. Plus if they had battery power available, they could be just required to be o/h power for some of their route, say the core element.

However, we are stuck with buses.

MJohnston · 11-10-2018 2:14pm

I think one thing highlighted by Ross' observations is, with regard to somewhere like Glencullen, they should have had a better plan for how to replace small local routes like that, because it is not a great look that certain villages just had their low-frequency routes removed completely. I can see the responsibility for that kind of thing shifting away from Dublin Bus, but it still should have been part of the plan, as it's an easy stick to beat it with.

Cookie_Monster · 11-10-2018 8:37pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Dublin trams of 100 years ago bear no relationship to the Luas trams. Why would modern trolleybuses bear any resemblance to trolleybuses of 50 years ago?

They could be rubber wheeled Luas trams with overhead electric supply.

He's describing modern trolleybuses... Wellington has them, emissions aside they've no real benefit over standard, the infrastructure is ugly and potentially dangerous, costly and limited in flexibility. They jump the wires quite frequently also.

Stephen15 · 11-10-2018 9:37pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

He's describing modern trolleybuses... Wellington has them, emissions aside they've no real benefit over standard, the infrastructure is ugly and potentially dangerous, costly and limited in flexibility. They jump the wires quite frequently also.

They seem to be quite popular in ex Commie Block countries aswell. Also a number of cities in Italy have them aswell. The wires look ok in city like Bologna for example where buildings are of a consistent height meaning they are usually tied to building and not to pylons. Belfast aswell as a number of cities in the UK used to have them up until the 60s as they got rid of the rails from the tram system but kept up the overhead centenary.

ArmaniJeanss · 12-10-2018 3:18pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes, they cunningly combine (some of) the infrastructure costs and all of the lack of operational flexibility of trams, along with the low capacity and higher staff costs of buses

Hah, nicely phrased.

Though in fairness 'operational inflexibility' is actually one of the best things about rail/trams. The route is the route and costs loads to change, so once its done there's no lobbying to veer off to the left to serve the new estate, then to the right to serve the supermarket and the bingo hall, like happens with bus routes all too often.

circular flexing · 13-10-2018 7:10am

Another piece by Irish Times, this time on Wellington where it seems like Jarrett Walker consulted for a while but then left the project

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/how-wellington-s-busconnects-scheme-created-travel-chaos-1.3661640

Only 2 sentences at the end about the success of another city in NZ (Auckland).

Walked also wrote a rebuttal to a piece in the NZ based newspaper

https://humantransit.org/2018/10/wellington-notes-on-an-nz-newsroom-article.html

AlekSmart · 13-10-2018 1:25pm

circular flexing wrote: »

Another piece by Irish Times, this time on Wellington where it seems like Jarrett Walker consulted for a while but then left the project

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/how-wellington-s-busconnects-scheme-created-travel-chaos-1.3661640

Only 2 sentences at the end about the success of another city in NZ (Auckland).

Walked also wrote a rebuttal to a piece in the NZ based newspaper

https://humantransit.org/2018/10/wellington-notes-on-an-nz-newsroom-article.html

My thinking is that Jarrett Walker will eventually walk away (He won't be able to get a Bus) from the current Dublin Busconnects programme.
He was retained to carry out a study and produce a comprehensive report outling a solution to the brief.

He has performed this,in the best fashion I have ever seen in terms of Irish Transport Consultancy Studies,whilst then having to engage in a campaign of Guerilla warfare with a highly motivated and well resourced group of Naysayers,who right from the bell,went screaming for the jugular with little regard for the facts of the plan.

Now,in the final indignity for this Plan,it is to be subject to a 20,000 strong committe of equally "expert" reviewers,before the final version appears.

What,I would ask,are the chances of the final Dublin Busconnects Plan having much in common with Walker's original draft ?

100%.....75%......50%....25%.....thats where we now stand.

Jarrett Walker & Associates (all 10 of them) have a lot of Proffessional Skin in this game,and I suggest he personally,will not want to see his firm's reputation perish upon the rocks of,yet another, Irish Solution to an Irish Problem. :eek:

Yet,with typical obstinacy,Dublin's administrative clique appear intent upon following the very clear path to disaster now all to apparent in Wellington.
The NTA paid the man for an expert report,it's about time they had to sense to listen to it ?

Zebra3 · 13-10-2018 3:16pm

You’re giving too much credit to the morons trying to destroy BC.

They’re not that smart.

.G. · 13-10-2018 3:35pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

My thinking is that Jarrett Walker will eventually walk away (He won't be able to get a Bus) from the current Dublin Busconnects programme.
He was retained to carry out a study and produce a comprehensive report outling a solution to the brief.

He has performed this,in the best fashion I have ever seen in terms of Irish Transport Consultancy Studies,whilst then having to engage in a campaign of Guerilla warfare with a highly motivated and well resourced group of Naysayers,who right from the bell,went screaming for the jugular with little regard for the facts of the plan.

Now,in the final indignity for this Plan,it is to be subject to a 20,000 strong committe of equally "expert" reviewers,before the final version appears.

What,I would ask,are the chances of the final Dublin Busconnects Plan having much in common with Walker's original draft ?

100%.....75%......50%....25%.....thats where we now stand.

Jarrett Walker & Associates (all 10 of them) have a lot of Proffessional Skin in this game,and I suggest he personally,will not want to see his firm's reputation perish upon the rocks of,yet another, Irish Solution to an Irish Problem. :eek:

Yet,with typical obstinacy,Dublin's administrative clique appear intent upon following the very clear path to disaster now all to apparent in Wellington.
The NTA paid the man for an expert report,it's about time they had to sense to listen to it ?

This is the big thing I took from it. The paper probably wanted to show him in bad light but what it actually does is show the people charged with implementing it in bad light. Dermot O' Leary has used this example against him too on twitter without, it seems, realising it was the objectors and those in charge of implementing it i.e. the likes of him and our city politicians who scream loudest, who are responsible for the sh!t show in wellington, not the designer.

Shedite27 · 13-10-2018 8:03pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

My thinking is that Jarrett Walker will eventually walk away (He won't be able to get a Bus) from the current Dublin Busconnects programme.
He was retained to carry out a study and produce a comprehensive report outling a solution to the brief.

He has performed this,in the best fashion I have ever seen in terms of Irish Transport Consultancy Studies,whilst then having to engage in a campaign of Guerilla warfare with a highly motivated and well resourced group of Naysayers,who right from the bell,went screaming for the jugular with little regard for the facts of the plan.

Now,in the final indignity for this Plan,it is to be subject to a 20,000 strong committe of equally "expert" reviewers,before the final version appears.

What,I would ask,are the chances of the final Dublin Busconnects Plan having much in common with Walker's original draft ?

100%.....75%......50%....25%.....thats where we now stand.

Jarrett Walker & Associates (all 10 of them) have a lot of Proffessional Skin in this game,and I suggest he personally,will not want to see his firm's reputation perish upon the rocks of,yet another, Irish Solution to an Irish Problem. :eek:

Yet,with typical obstinacy,Dublin's administrative clique appear intent upon following the very clear path to disaster now all to apparent in Wellington.
The NTA paid the man for an expert report,it's about time they had to sense to listen to it ?

This type of thing happens at every one of these projects everywhere in the world. Stakeholder management is one of the main skills in that line of work. He knows most of the policiticians are doing it for free publicity and will be politely ignored.

dfx- · 13-10-2018 10:03pm

Thankfully the NTA being a notoriously independent body will ignore DoT policy changes or comments from a Minister...

markpb · 14-10-2018 8:32am

dfx- wrote: »

Thankfully the NTA being a notoriously independent body will ignore DoT policy changes or comments from a Minister...

Did someone from the NTA steal your Christmast present or something? Your incessant ranting about them is getting boring. Some of your posts have some actual criticism which is fair enough but the rest are just muck flinging. I'll buy you a new Christmas present if you want, I'm good for it!

XPS_Zero · 14-10-2018 12:40pm

I don't think journos are aware of the irony of what they are printing.

"Transport experts say BusConnects will improve Dublins Bus network, others disagree" ....so NOT experts disagree then? NOT experts disagree?

But ignoring them and saying "were tired of experts" worked out great for the Brexit plan in the UK didn't it? I mean things are going so well they've appointed(this is real, this is NOT the onion) a Minister for Supplies like during wartime to stockpile goods due to the bow wave of disruption to the JIT system.

Reminds me of that really creepy headline after the Rugby trial "100s march to give their own verdict", yeh what does the jury who did it as their full time job for months know eh? What do people who know stuff know? pffff!

I'd be half minded to pull the entire plan and say "ok, you still have your long, meandering, wait for half hour 'direct' bus to the city centre..congrats, you'll even have 4 of them arriving at the same time to choose from!"

XPS_Zero · 14-10-2018 12:44pm

dfx- wrote: »

Thankfully the NTA being a notoriously independent body will ignore DoT policy changes or comments from a Minister...

It may turn out to be a good thing that, ATM , we have a minister who is more worried about being a super TD and getting what the americans call "pork" for his own area than his portfolio, he is probably only barely aware of what BusConnects is. So maybe that means he won't make a balls of it.

XPS_Zero · 14-10-2018 12:51pm

sharper wrote: »

https://twitter.com/taniadoylecllr/status/1047200848328187905

The number of elected officials that apparently can't even do a google search to answer their own concerns is incredible. If Tania Doyle spent even a few minutes researching it she'd learn JWA won an open tender for the redesign. Why does she even think they were the only ones approached?

They don't care about the truth (most of them) they care about getting their name in the paper to create a firestorm and look like a champion of the people. Some of them are stupid enough to buy their own nonsense but most have not even bothered to actually check if this might work, they are USING it to get their mugs on laptop and tv screens and onto the radios.

They think it will help them get elected but in reality by the time the election comes most people will have forgotten about this. One of the most amazing things in politics is how aspiring and existing politicos chase random cars down the road thinking the people care about them but they forget there is a difference in what people will change their vote on, and what they'll moan about on twitter or facebook on then forget about when the next set of shiny keys is jiggled in front of them.

dfx- · 14-10-2018 2:57pm

markpb wrote: »

Did someone from the NTA steal your Christmast present or something? Your incessant ranting about them is getting boring. Some of your posts have some actual criticism which is fair enough but the rest are just muck flinging. I'll buy you a new Christmas present if you want, I'm good for it!

I think it was yourself (I apologise if it was not) that pointed out in this forum - perhaps this thread - that we (critics presumably) should all realise that the DoT are not in charge anymore and things have changed, we have all moved on from the old days and the old ways.

The reality is the NTA, for all their positives and negatives, are still at the whim of ministers changing their mind like perhaps Mr. Ross could. They are a construct of the DoT and nothing has changed. They would abandon BusConnects in a shot because the DoT has its thumb on the scales of their decisions.

But if you're giving out Christmas Presents, I'll not get in the way.:)

XPS_Zero · 14-10-2018 3:55pm

NTA and HSE are just to take micro decisions and day to day decisions out of the departments, they are not, like central banks and interest rates designed to take powers totally off the govt, the govt will always have the power to intervene with big strategic issues (they have the power to override small ones too they just don't usually)

Ross just does not care enough though, thankfully, once his own bus routes in his area are ok he'll not care.

OscarMIlde · 14-10-2018 3:58pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I don't think journos are aware of the irony of what they are printing.

"Transport experts say BusConnects will improve Dublins Bus network, others disagree" ....so NOT experts disagree then? NOT experts disagree?

But ignoring them and saying "were tired of experts" worked out great for the Brexit plan in the UK didn't it? I mean things are going so well they've appointed(this is real, this is NOT the onion) a Minister for Supplies like during wartime to stockpile goods due to the bow wave of disruption to the JIT system.

Reminds me of that really creepy headline after the Rugby trial "100s march to give their own verdict", yeh what does the jury who did it as their full time job for months know eh? What do people who know stuff know? pffff!

I'd be half minded to pull the entire plan and say "ok, you still have your long, meandering, wait for half hour 'direct' bus to the city centre..congrats, you'll even have 4 of them arriving at the same time to choose from!"

There are many legitimate and valid criticisms about bus connects which were raised by commuters. I'm sick of the smug attitude by fans of the proposal that critics of it are either to ignorant or unadaptable to accept change. From the routes I'm intimately familiar with the changes will be a vast disimprovement at peak times, and minimal improvement at other times.

Zebra3 · 14-10-2018 6:03pm

Can you list them?

OscarMIlde · 14-10-2018 7:20pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Can you list them?

I've mentioned the negative effect on daily commuters in the north Kildare area multiple times on this thread.

OscarMIlde · 14-10-2018 7:32pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

You’re giving too much credit to the morons trying to destroy BC.

They’re not that smart.

Referring to people who have legitimate complaints about some of the changes being proposed, who did the intelligent thing and highlighted shortcomings to their public representatives, and submitted critiques to the public consultation, as 'morons' and 'not that smart' is such an infuriating argument. How else are people going to have their concerns addressed? Would you prefer if they said nothing and waited for their daily commute to become even more hellish before waiting to complain? Why presume that people don't understand the nature of routes they've used for years.

My own commute from Maynooth to UCD will become even longer than the current 4 hours per day, as the so called new express route designed to replace the 66x is drastically less frequent, and will take an even longer route than it does now. That is unacceptable for an already under served area, especially in light of the massive expansion in housing stock which has been approved for the area.

If you want bus connects to succeed, you need to face the reality that aspects of it have not been well thought out, and need to be reassessed before rollout.

Spanish Eyes · 14-10-2018 7:35pm

OscarMIlde wrote: »

My own commute from Maynooth to UCD will become even longer than the current 4 hours per day, as the so called new express route designed to replace the 66x is drastically less frequent, and will take an even longer route than it does now. That is unacceptable for an already under served area, especially in light of the massive expansion in housing stock which has been approved for the area.

If you want bus connects to succeed, you need to face the reality that aspects of it have not been well thought out, and need to be reassessed before rollout.

I am curious, and I am sure it has to do with your course/studies, but was Maynooth University not an option for you?

But maybe you work in UCD. Not enough information as to why someone would live in Maynooth University town and commute to UCD every day!

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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