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What will happen after direct awards expire in 2019?
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06-08-2018 3:02am#1So as many of the regular visitors to this forum may know that the direct award contracts for DB, BE and IE are up next year which makes for an interesting potential scenario regarding further tendering of the network something which may lead to industrial unrest unless something is sorted out in the meantime.
If there are more direct awards it would alleviate industrial unrest however this could prevent improvements to public transport services such as the integrated 90 minute ticketing proposed under bus connects, certain elements of bus connects, further integration of our transport system crucial now with GAI entering the market as it may mean DB and Go Ahead will be in separate liveries with separate fare structures and operators such as DB, IE and BE will still have a degree of autonomy from the NTA which operators like Transdev and Go-Ahead won't have.
It's also an issue which is coming down the tracks only next year hard and fast but yet the government, The NTA, CIE and even the unions apart from the NBRU when they talk about further privatisation but still don't mention this have been very hush hush about almost as if it's something that they want to avoid as if they do further tender they could be looking at industrial unrest and if they don't they could be looking at potential sanctions from the EU.0
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Best as I can tell, the direct award decision does not factor in the potential for industrial unrest and nor should it.
DB & BE become competitors for the contracts and some they will win and some they won't. For the various companies there will be additional hiring and for others there will be job losses. That's how it works.
As for liveries and fare structures, they will be dictated by the NTA
If anything, I look forward to any potential weakening of the unions that this may cause. Too many of the problems with public transport in Ireland are directly due to their intransigence across a broad spectrum of issues with little logic for it.
Besides, additional industrial unrest only quickens the advent of driverless buses0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Besides, additional industrial unrest only quickens the advent of driverless buses
It'll be a long time before buses are driving themselves in cities and towns. And a strike in Irish transport will have zero effect on the introduction of autonomous vehicles.0 -
My prediction: A two year extension will be issued to the direct awards, giving the NTA and transport industry time to see how the GAI contract and operation is working out. After that, we'll see a chunk of DB routes tendered out. There might also be smaller chunks of BE routes tendered as well.0
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[Deleted User] wrote: »Best as I can tell, the direct award decision does not factor in the potential for industrial unrest and nor should it.
DB & BE become competitors for the contracts and some they will win and some they won't. For the various companies there will be additional hiring and for others there will be job losses. That's how it works.
As for liveries and fare structures, they will be dictated by the NTA
If anything, I look forward to any potential weakening of the unions that this may cause. Too many of the problems with public transport in Ireland are directly due to their intransigence across a broad spectrum of issues with little logic for it.
Besides, additional industrial unrest only quickens the advent of driverless buses
That's all well and good to say until people are left with no other option but to walk to work. Although when Go-Ahead are up and running the effects of a DB/BE will be not as bad as a certain amount of commuters will still be able to get to and from work if they using Go-Ahead services and not DB services.
I'm not sure who decides liveries but DB and BE will still keep farebox revenue if they are given another direct award contract.0 -
My prediction: A two year extension will be issued to the direct awards, giving the NTA and transport industry time to see how the GAI contract and operation is working out. After that, we'll see a chunk of DB routes tendered out. There might also be smaller chunks of BE routes tendered as well.
That's what I see happening. I think such as a situation will come into effect when bus connects routes are starting to be implemented.
I think that DB will keep about 60% of the market share and will sell off some their depots to private operators and developers. The other 40% of the market will likely to be tendered out to Go-Ahead who will grown their operations and gain 20% of the market and another private operator who will get another 20% of the market.0 -
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That's what I see happening. I think such as a situation will come into effect when bus connects routes are starting to be implemented.
I think that DB will keep about 60% of the market share and will sell off some their depots to private operators and developers. The other 40% of the market will likely to be tendered out to Go-Ahead who will grown their operations and gain 20% of the market and another private operator who will get another 20% of the market.
That's quite depressing but I'd hope for it to remain 70% DB. Spines and Locals for DB, orbitals for the rest.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »If anything, I look forward to any potential weakening of the unions that this may cause.
indeed. we can't have workers being able to get better terms and conditions and being in a good union. my experience on here tells me that some who want the unions weakened would be the first to complain should their terms be degraded.
the good news is there will be no weakening of the transport unions. they will be in most, if not all the companies tendering for any routes.Deleted User wrote: »Too many of the problems with public transport in Ireland are directly due to their intransigence across a broad spectrum of issues with little logic for it.
none of the problems with public transport in Ireland are directly due to their non-intransigence across a broad spectrum of issues with lots of logic for it, otherwise the unions wouldn't need to do what their members pay them to do. the unions only deal with employment issues. transport improvements are for the companies/government/NTA.Deleted User wrote: »Besides, additional industrial unrest only quickens the advent of driverless buses
it doesn't. driverless busses will come when they come, which will be the timeframe that they come, no earlier or later.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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That's what I see happening. I think such as a situation will come into effect when bus connects routes are starting to be implemented.
I think that DB will keep about 60% of the market share and will sell off some their depots to private operators and developers. The other 40% of the market will likely to be tendered out to Go-Ahead who will grown their operations and gain 20% of the market and another private operator who will get another 20% of the market.
i can't see db selling any depots tbh. they would be mad to do so if i'm honest.
i'd say a 60 40 or even 70 30 in favour of dublin bus sounds right, however i'm not sure about how the other 30/20% will workout for now. go ahead will have to prove they can do a good job with the 10% they have before they can gain any more i'd imagine.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »i can't see db selling any depots tbh. they would be mad to do so if i'm honest.
i'd say a 60 40 or even 70 30 in favour of dublin bus sounds right, however i'm not sure about how the other 30/20% will workout for now. go ahead will have to prove they can do a good job with the 10% they have before they can gain any more i'd imagine.
I cant see how they are going to do a better job in the short term. lower payed drivers is not a great place to start.
Can you imagine 5 busses trying to leave Ballymount to be somewhere else on time in the middle of rush hour. They are going nowhere from the get go.0 -
My prediction: A two year extension will be issued to the direct awards, giving the NTA and transport industry time to see how the GAI contract and operation is working out..
First thing that jumps to mind is, how long the tender process for the 10% that GAI won took. how many years ?
Secondly, GAI have a proven track record across many countries, the NTA shouldn't be waiting to see how they do here, they've trusted them to this point.
Third. Why would anyone expect another operator to come in for the tender, wasn't the tender qualifying so strict that a lot of companies couldn't bid and those that could baulked at the process.
Finally, it's in the NTAs interest to get that 30% away from DB and smash the stranglehold the union's currently have when calling a strike. If DB strike and 50% of the buses are still on the road along with dart and luas, the Nbru could be left shouting its hypocrisy while going bankrupt paying members strike pay.
I hope it's a swift decision to tender out the routes. By not doing so it only benefits DB instead of the public.0 -
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dashcamdanny wrote: »I cant see how they are going to do a better job in the short term. lower payed drivers is not a great place to start.
Can you imagine 5 busses trying to leave Ballymount to be somewhere else on time in the middle of rush hour. They are going nowhere from the get go.
Why do you believe buses will be trying to get out of ballymount at rush hour. Buses will be on the road at 5.30am before any type of build up in the area.0 -
First thing that jumps to mind is, how long the tender process for the 10% that GAI won took. how many years ?
Secondly, GAI have a proven track record across many countries, the NTA shouldn't be waiting to see how they do here, they've trusted them to this point.
Third. Why would anyone expect another operator to come in for the tender, wasn't the tender qualifying so strict that a lot of companies couldn't bid and those that could baulked at the process.
Finally, it's in the NTAs interest to get that 30% away from DB and smash the stranglehold the union's currently have when calling a strike. If DB strike and 50% of the buses are still on the road along with dart and luas, the Nbru could be left shouting its hypocrisy while going bankrupt paying members strike pay.
I hope it's a swift decision to tender out the routes. By not doing so it only benefits DB instead of the public.
Siptu will be representing GoAhead.
If there is a transport union strike in either company, it will may include all members. I would hope anyway.0 -
Why do you believe buses will be trying to get out of ballymount at rush hour. Buses will be on the road at 5.30am before any type of build up in the area.
Some buses will be out, and they will probably return after 8 or nine hours on the road before they need to return for the day. If you had a bus in Dublin working from morning to night, you would be knee deep in beer tins and rubbish.
There will be constant bus traffic from the depot all through a working day.0 -
GAI have a proven track record across many countries, the NTA shouldn't be waiting to see how they do here, they've trusted them to this point.
of course they should be waiting to see how go ahead do. go ahead may have a proven track record but they are still operating in a new environment, so it's important that they are monitored to see how they get on. handing them more contracts when they haven't began operating the first lot yet would be ridiculous.Finally, it's in the NTAs interest to get that 30% away from DB and smash the stranglehold the union's currently have when calling a strike. If DB strike and 50% of the buses are still on the road along with dart and luas, the Nbru could be left shouting its hypocrisy while going bankrupt paying members strike pay.
the stranglehold the unions currently have can't and won't be smashed. moving 30% or whatever amount of routes away from dublin bus to another company does not prevent a full strike. the NBRU are going nowhere.I hope it's a swift decision to tender out the routes. By not doing so it only benefits DB instead of the public.
tendering the routes doesn't benefit the public in this case as the NTA decides everything and the operator simply does what it is contracted to do.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »none of the problems with public transport in Ireland are directly due to their non-intransigence across a broad spectrum of issues with lots of logic for it, otherwise the unions wouldn't need to do what their members pay them to do. the unions only deal with employment issues. transport improvements are for the companies/government/NTA.
Exactly right. Luckily there's no recent examples of unions getting involved in transport changes.
The secret to great comedy is all in the timing....0 -
dashcamdanny wrote: »Some buses will be out, and they will probably return after 8 or nine hours on the road before they need to return for the day. If you had a bus in Dublin working from morning to night, you would be knee deep in beer tins and rubbish.
There will be constant bus traffic from the depot all through a working day.
Well you could ask how does a bus get from Donnybrook or Ringsend all the way to the Northside or an outer place like Enniskerry or Blessington today, is there not issues like that there today already.0 -
end of the road wrote: »i can't see db selling any depots tbh. they would be mad to do so if i'm honest.
i'd say a 60 40 or even 70 30 in favour of dublin bus sounds right, however i'm not sure about how the other 30/20% will workout for now. go ahead will have to prove they can do a good job with the 10% they have before they can gain any more i'd imagine.
I could see Ringsend being sold off. It's not in a great position for many of the routes it operates as most of them go out to South West Dublin some routes it operates are cross city and operated by two depots such as the 15 and the 27. It probably has the highest land value of any depot and most of it's routes could be moved to other depots as Donnybrook for example will have plenty of space as it's loosing a fair whack of routes to GAI. It could be relocated to somewhere like Tallaght.
Also bus connects proposes many orbitals out in West Dublin which DB might not be placed to operate in their current depot locations without a lot of dead running to and from outer termini.0 -
end of the road wrote: »indeed. we can't have workers being able to get better terms and conditions and being in a good union. my experience on here tells me that some who want the unions weakened would be the first to complain should their terms be degraded.
the good news is there will be no weakening of the transport unions. they will be in most, if not all the companies tendering for any routes.
Yeah because the starting wage of a DB bus driver at 5k more than a college educated teacher makes perfect sense, because they drive buses.none of the problems with public transport in Ireland are directly due to their non-intransigence across a broad spectrum of issues with lots of logic for it, otherwise the unions wouldn't need to do what their members pay them to do. the unions only deal with employment issues. transport improvements are for the companies/government/NTA.
This is like a Donald Trump answerit doesn't. driverless busses will come when they come, which will be the timeframe that they come, no earlier or later.
That time will be hastened by continued strikes. a computer doesnt strike which makes it vastly more appealing to a frustrated electoratedashcamdanny wrote: »Siptu will be representing GoAhead.
If there is a transport union strike in either company, it will may include all members. I would hope anyway.
Yet another example of why unions are the worst part of public transport in Irelandend of the road wrote: »of course they should be waiting to see how go ahead do. go ahead may have a proven track record but they are still operating in a new environment, so it's important that they are monitored to see how they get on. handing them more contracts when they haven't began operating the first lot yet would be ridiculous.
Its driving buses, on roads, collecting passengers. Its really not that hard and they have experience before they even start. If they can manage in London, Dublin will be a doddle.the stranglehold the unions currently have can't and won't be smashed. moving 30% or whatever amount of routes away from dublin bus to another company does not prevent a full strike. the NBRU are going nowhere.
Yet again, threats of strikes, again showing why unions are the worst thing in Irish public transport holding back progressExactly right. Luckily there's no recent examples of unions getting involved in transport changes.
The secret to great comedy is all in the timing....
True, true0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Yeah because the starting wage of a DB bus driver at 5k more than a college educated teacher makes perfect sense, because they drive buses.
being college educated doesn't entitle you to anything anymore. that's not to say one shouldn't do it, i'm glad i did it myself all those years ago. however i'm under no illusion that it entitled me to jot. these days it's simply a way to filter out candidates.Deleted User wrote: »That time will be hastened by continued strikes.
there is nothing that i have seen to show this is the case. companies will be wanting to implement automation as quick as they can to make more money, strikes won't make any difference to how quick it happens.Deleted User wrote: »a computer doesnt strike which makes it vastly more appealing to a frustrated electorate
thankfully what is more appealing to the electorate is irrelevant to what is appealing in reality. in this day and age, given we have saw what happens when things are done on a spur of the moment to appeal to an electorate, the transport planners won't implement automation until it works in full and there is an actual benefit to doing it.Deleted User wrote: »Yet another example of why unions are the worst part of public transport in Ireland
not at all, it's an example of why they are vital for workers and for the company. they can collectively bargain on behalf of the employees saving the company time in having to deal with individual people, and they can insure the workers have good terms and conditions, which will mean a happy, more productive work force. meaning a better happy company for everyone.Deleted User wrote: »Its driving buses, on roads, collecting passengers. Its really not that hard and they have experience before they even start. If they can manage in London, Dublin will be a doddle.
doesn't matter, they are a new company to ireland, and therefore they have to be monitored to insure they can operate to the specific environment they are operating in, and the various challenges it brings. it covers both the back of the company and the NTA. london is a very different place to dublin.Deleted User wrote: »Yet again, threats of strikes, again showing why unions are the worst thing in Irish public transport holding back progress
unions don't hold back progress. strikes are necessary otherwise they wouldn't happen. standing up for the members who pay their wages, along with collectively working on behalf of the workers with the company so that the company doesn't have to deal with individual employees, shows why a union is an asset to the workers and to the company.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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So as many of the regular visitors to this forum may know that the direct award contracts for DB, BE and IE are up next year which makes for an interesting potential scenario regarding further tendering of the network something which may lead to industrial unrest unless something is sorted out in the meantime.
If there are more direct awards it would alleviate industrial unrest however this could prevent improvements to public transport services such as the integrated 90 minute ticketing proposed under bus connects, certain elements of bus connects, further integration of our transport system crucial now with GAI entering the market as it may mean DB and Go Ahead will be in separate liveries with separate fare structures and operators such as DB, IE and BE will still have a degree of autonomy from the NTA which operators like Transdev and Go-Ahead won't have.
It's also an issue which is coming down the tracks only next year hard and fast but yet the government, The NTA, CIE and even the unions apart from the NBRU when they talk about further privatisation but still don't mention this have been very hush hush about almost as if it's something that they want to avoid as if they do further tender they could be looking at industrial unrest and if they don't they could be looking at potential sanctions from the EU.
The NTA have already confirmed that they will be renewing DA contracts with IE, DB and BE in 2019 via e-mail correspondence and also in their Statement Strategy 2018-2022, Shane Ross also seems to have confirmed it in the Dáil in 2017.
Also look at Q4 in this post. Also look at this post which outlines the legal position, it was thought the Fourth Railway Package would change the position of IE and require tendering but obviously not and the NTA has also in recent times confirmed this at a recent board meeting of the CIE group.0 -
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The NTA have already confirmed that they will be renewing DA contracts with IE, DB and BE in 2019 via e-mail correspondence and also in their Statement Strategy 2018-2022, Shane Ross also seems to have confirmed it in the Dáil in 2017.
Also look at Q4 in this post. Also look at this post which outlines the legal position, it was thought the Fourth Railway Package would change the position of IE and require tendering but obviously not and the NTA has also in recent times confirmed this at a recent board meeting of the CIE group.
Well that's that then. See ye in a few years0 -
dashcamdanny wrote: »Siptu will be representing GoAhead. If there is a transport union strike in either company, it will may include all members. I would hope anyway.
I'm no lawyer but I think what you're proposing is illegal. And since there are no shared DB / GAI depots, there's no worry about one union having to cross a picket line belonging to the other union.
What will probably happen, what we've seen happen with CIE companies no so long ago, is that DB will go on strike and illegally picket either GAI depots or bus stops.0 -
Does this mean irish rail could be replaced by a private (and probably better) company0
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The NTA have already confirmed that they will be renewing DA contracts with IE, DB and BE in 2019 via e-mail correspondence and also in their Statement Strategy 2018-2022, Shane Ross also seems to have confirmed it in the Dáil in 2017.
Also look at Q4 in this post. Also look at this post which outlines the legal position, it was thought the Fourth Railway Package would change the position of IE and require tendering but obviously not and the NTA has also in recent times confirmed this at a recent board meeting of the CIE group.
I wouldn't be suprised about rail staying the way it is as it's in a far different position compared to the buses. It's generally not profitable outside the main intercity routes and dart/commuter network. I also read a while back that the government would look for exemptions for IR in the event of any tendering because of the small size of our network and that were an island nation and not connected directly to any continental network.0 -
I wouldn't be suprised about rail staying the way it is as it's in a far different position compared to the buses. It's generally not profitable outside the main intercity routes and dart/commuter network. I also read a while back that the government would look for exemptions for IR in the event of any tendering because of the small size of our network and that were an island nation and not connected directly to any continental network.
I think Estonia were seeking a similar exemption. It's not like we're a transit country where it you want to transport rail freight from Amsterdam to Vienna you have to gain German rail rights.0 -
Secondly, GAI have a proven track record across many countries, the NTA shouldn't be waiting to see how they do here, they've trusted them to this point.
It's not as clear cut as that. GAI have a proven track record in other countries but I'm sure the NTA will want to see how it works here, have they structured the contract correctly, does it give them sufficient flexibility to change the operational parameters later or are they tied into an inflexible contract. Likewise, I'm sure the market will want to see how GAI performs commercially before they jump into a second, possibly larger, tender. Are they making sufficient money, what are the NTA like to work with etc. When it's been working for at least two years, NTA will know how to structure future tenders and the market will know what price to tender at.Third. Why would anyone expect another operator to come in for the tender, wasn't the tender qualifying so strict that a lot of companies couldn't bid and those that could baulked at the process.
Two operators dropped out near the end because they didn't want to build their own depot. At the start of the tender process, it appeared that the new operator would be given then use of an NTA depot. I'm sure the next tender will either make that clearer from the start or the decision will be reversed.
It's not in NTAs interest to only have DB and GAI tendering.0 -
It's not as clear cut as that. GAI have a proven track record in other countries but I'm sure the NTA will want to see how it works here, have they structured the contract correctly, does it give them sufficient flexibility to change the operational parameters later or are they tied into an inflexible contract. Likewise, I'm sure the market will want to see how GAI performs commercially before they jump into a second, possibly larger, tender. Are they making sufficient money, what are the NTA like to work with etc. When it's been working for at least two years, NTA will know how to structure future tenders and the market will know what price to tender at.
Two operators dropped out near the end because they didn't want to build their own depot. At the start of the tender process, it appeared that the new operator would be given then use of an NTA depot. I'm sure the next tender will either make that clearer from the start or the decision will be reversed.
It's quite difficult for the general public to prise specific information from the Cold,dead grip of the NTA in relation to the BMO Tendering process.
The Go-Ahead contract is still unavailable for public perusal,and it's looking as if the NTA will strongly resist attempts to get it into the public domain.
The snippets we are aware of,reveal a €172,000,000 cost over the 5 year life of the contract.
In the original tender documents the NTA specified that where a tendering party was unable to provide it's own depot facilities,the NTA would provide these,with a resultant adjustment in the amount to be paid.
As of now,elements such as the cost,funding and ownership,of the Ballymount facility remain unconfirmed,apart from go-Ahead itself confirming an €8,500,000 "investment" in its new Irish Operation.
I would fully expect the National Transport Authority,as an arm of a first world European Democracy to at least match the methodology employed by the Singaporean Land Transit Authority,who are currently involved in a very similar Bus Market Opening process.
https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/page.aspx?c=2&id=a0d4d08f-32f9-4a7a-804b-a0e97e9c19e6It's not in NTAs interest to only have DB and GAI tendering.
That would appear so.....but one never knows ?Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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It's quite difficult for the general public to prise specific information from the Cold,dead grip of the NTA in relation to the BMO Tendering process.
The Go-Ahead contract is still unavailable for public perusal,and it's looking as if the NTA will strongly resist attempts to get it into the public domain.
The snippets we are aware of,reveal a €172,000,000 cost over the 5 year life of the contract.
In the original tender documents the NTA specified that where a tendering party was unable to provide it's own depot facilities,the NTA would provide these,with a resultant adjustment in the amount to be paid.
As of now,elements such as the cost,funding and ownership,of the Ballymount facility remain unconfirmed,apart from go-Ahead itself confirming an €8,500,000 "investment" in its new Irish Operation.
I would fully expect the National Transport Authority,as an arm of a first world European Democracy to at least match the methodology employed by the Singaporean Land Transit Authority,who are currently involved in a very similar Bus Market Opening process.
https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/page.aspx?c=2&id=a0d4d08f-32f9-4a7a-804b-a0e97e9c19e6
That would appear so.....but one never knows ?
Already pointed out to you on the go ahead thread how to submit a FOI request.
However, these contracts meet the definition of commercially sensitive material so are unlikely to ever be released0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Already pointed out to you on the go ahead thread how to submit a FOI request.
However, these contracts meet the definition of commercially sensitive material so are unlikely to ever be released
in what way do they meet the definition of commercially sensitive material. i actually wouldn't think they do
and one shouldn't have to put in a FOI. if the contract did turn out to be commercially sensitive then the NTA could simply say so and state why. instead they are keeping quiet.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »in what way do they meet the definition of commercially sensitive material. i actually wouldn't think they do
and one shouldn't have to put in a FOI. if the contract did turn out to be commercially sensitive then the NTA could simply say so and state why. instead they are keeping quiet.
Sigh, ok, I'll try one last time
Ever hear the expression of "you don't ask, you don't get".
The NTA are not obliged to do anything unless the request for the contract is submitted through FOI. They have a legal responsibility to respond to every single FOI request and respond within a limited time frame. They also need a rock solid justification to refuse a FOI otherwise it will be overturned on appeal and they get flogged for not adhering to FOIAL legislation
An FOI request is as easy as sending an email, takes 5 mins.
If someone insists that the NTA should make the contract public but can't be arsed to actually submit a request for a copy of it please tell me how a copy of that contract is supposed to end up in the public domain.
Apart from press releases or govt publications, how do you think govt information ends up in the public domain? TD's, Councillors, Journalists, regular punters etc, all use the tool, FOI0
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