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75 years ago today....

13567

Comments

  • #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    I dont need to know "you", I know your type! Talking tough while sitting at home, pathetic.

    Go back to playing call of duty, leave the fighting to those who have the guts.

    Yawn.


  • #63
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,697 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    JayZeus wrote: »
    Dresden is not part of Northern Ireland. Assuming that’s what ‘the North’ refers to.

    I’ll tell you now though, if Northern Ireland annexed Donegal and went to war with the Republic of Ireland for 5 years, all the while murdering innocent people in death camps over the border in Lifford and dropping rockets on Dublin and then one night it was blanket fire bombed and levelled, killing every man woman and child in it, I’d lose no sleep over it. I wouldn’t cry foul and I’d shed no tears about it.

    What if you were on the other side? For example, if Ireland was involved in a World War atrocities and the bombs started raining down on your town or city, would you be content that you were part of the problem because you happened to live in Ireland?


  • #64
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Mod: JayZeus and Blaze420 don't post in this thread again.


    Words almost fail me.


  • #65
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,732 ✭✭✭SeanW


    JayZeus wrote: »
    Great pictures and I genuinely take some satisfaction from knowing that many German civilians suffered terrible deaths during those bombings. They had plenty of blood on their hands as a people by then and very few were innocent or had no role to play in their war effort, or the suffering of those sent to their deaths in the camps.

    Spectacular stuff.
    Wonderful. Not only is this screed psychopathic and devoid of humanity, it also totally ignorant of history.

    I suggest you read a history book about World War 1, the Treaty of Versailles and conditions in Germany in the interwar period. Or maybe just spend a few minutes on Wikipedia.

    Firstly, over half a million German civilians had died of starvation and other causes due to a naval blockade that prevented Germany from importing even foodstuffs and other civilian supplies during World War I. Second, the terms of the peace were a disaster - the German Empire had been abolished and a liberal democracy imposed in its place but with conditions of surrender so punitive that the new Weimar government had zero chance of success. Germany in the interwar period was in a state of near constant civil war with communists and later fascists trying to destroy it from within (the various Red/Communist armies were killing people right left and centre), but it was prevented from having a military capable of putting down the revolts. Nor was the Weimar military capable of responding to the invasion of the Ruhr in 1923 or otherwise protecting the Republic's territorial integrity.

    It was against this background that Hitler rose to power - it would have been nearly impossible otherwise. And though I don't know the full details, AFAIK it is disputed how much the German people knew about about the Nazi genocides.


  • #66
    Osamabindipper
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 110 ✭✭Osamabindipper


    Wow amazing pictures, unfortunately the world hasn't changed mutch since, this kinda thing still happening.


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  • #67
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,795 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    We really can be the biggest arseholes on this planet at times, hopefully we never ever repeat these kind of actions


  • #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Osamabindipper wrote: »
    Wow amazing pictures, unfortunately the world hasn't changed mutch since, this kinda thing still happening.

    While I'm not defending their actions, where in modern history have we seen the intentional targeting of civilians during a war to the same level of Dresden or Tokyo? I'm 42 and in my lifetime, I can't recall any such scale of bombing.


  • #69
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    SeanW wrote: »
    It was against this background that Hitler rose to power - it would have been nearly impossible otherwise. And though I don't know the full details, AFAIK it is disputed how much the German people knew about about the Nazi genocides.

    They knew plenty about Kristallnacht and over a decade of persecution and dispossession of the Jews and other groups based on their race. They knew plenty about Germany's murderous wars of aggression where normal members of the Wehrmacht committed ample war crimes. In fact they enthusiastically engaged in and supported all of these things until they started losing the war.

    The bombing of Dresden is a rallying cry for Nazi apologists. In fact it was a legitimate and necessary, albeit horrific, operation to win a murderous war Germany had begun and would not surrender in when it was clearly losing.

    "The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind." -Arthur "Bomber" Harris, 1942

    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    While I'm not defending their actions, where in modern history have we seen the intentional targeting of civilians during a war to the same level of Dresden or Tokyo? I'm 42 and in my lifetime, I can't recall any such scale of bombing.

    The US dropped several times the tonnage of ordnance on Vietnam that it did in all of WW2 and more on Korea then it did in the WW2 Pacific Theatre. Civilian losses were enormous.
    They'd be doing the same today if precision guided munitions didn't make carpet bombing unnecessary.


  • #70
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,399 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    While I'm not defending their actions, where in modern history have we seen the intentional targeting of civilians during a war to the same level of Dresden or Tokyo? I'm 42 and in my lifetime, I can't recall any such scale of bombing.

    Palestine would come closest imo, probably a contentious statement by me to make but the bombing by Israel in 2014 left nothing but rubble and civilians were targeted.


  • #71
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Ninthlife wrote: »
    1200 planes, 4 tonnes of bombs and resulted in over 20,000 deaths

    1200!?
    Geez. That is insane. I wonder if anyone sarcastically said "think we have enough planes yet, guys?" - they really must have wanted to level that city. Which they did.


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  • #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    They knew plenty about Kristallnacht and over a decade of persecution and dispossession of the Jews and other groups based on their race.

    Plenty of countries during the same period expelled the Jews from their borders, or 'encouraged' them to leave. Anti-jewish sentiment existed in many European countries.

    This is not a justification for German behavior.... but lets be a little bit more balanced and refrain from repeating the propaganda that the Allies have spread around about the War during and afterwards.
    They knew plenty about Germany's murderous wars of aggression where normal members of the Wehrmacht committed ample war crimes. In fact they enthusiastically engaged in and supported all of these things until they started losing the war.

    Really? Links please. Or are we talking about the invasion of Russia here?

    Have you considered the feelings of people/nations of that time about Russia, and communism?
    The bombing of Dresden is a rallying cry for Nazi apologists. In fact it was a legitimate and necessary, albeit horrific, operation to win a murderous war Germany had begun and would not surrender in when it was clearly losing.

    It wasn't necessary though. Considering the scale of material and manpower that the allies had at their disposal, especially after the invasion of Russia, the outcome of the war wasn't in doubt. In any case, there's references around that show that the bombing didn't hamper the German industry that was directed towards the war effort. It was an attack aimed to increase the number of refugees and increase the demands on German supplies/resources. The intentional targeting of civilians.

    We know that Hitler and the Nazi's were awful people with fcuked up intentions. It's just that some of us aren't particularly interested in wiping the slate clean for the allies who behaved abhorrently many times throughout and after the war.
    "The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind." -Arthur "Bomber" Harris, 1942

    Yup. But consider comparing the amount of bombs (and types of bombs dropped) between the allies and Germany. You'll quickly find that the Allies far outstripped the German capabilities to bomb a city or civilian area. Their airforce had not been developed/built with strategic bombing in mind, and their rockets did extremely little actual damage.


  • #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    The US dropped several times the tonnage of ordnance on Vietnam that it did in all of WW2 and more on Korea then it did in the WW2 Pacific Theatre. Civilian losses were enormous.
    They'd be doing the same today if precision guided munitions didn't make carpet bombing unnecessary.

    Were you alive during the Vietnam war? I wasn't. Hence, my remark about being 42, and not recalling anything similar during my lifetime.

    Precision guided munitions have been shown to be rather inaccurate at times. If the intention was there, they'd still be carpet bombing.
    Timberrrrrrrr wrote:
    Palestine would come closest imo, probably a contentious statement by me to make but the bombing by Israel in 2014 left nothing but rubble and civilians were targeted.

    Fair enough. Thanks.


  • #74
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Plenty of countries during the same period expelled the Jews from their borders, or 'encouraged' them to leave. Anti-jewish sentiment existed in many European countries.

    This is not a justification for German behavior.... but lets be a little bit more balanced and refrain from repeating the propaganda that the Allies have spread around about the War during and afterwards.


    Nazi Germany's uniquely extreme policies of racial persecution are a historical fact, not "Allied Propaganda". There is no equivalence between Nazi Germany and the racism and anti-semitism sadly common elsewhere at the time.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    Really? Links please. Or are we talking about the invasion of Russia here?


    Wehrmacht war crimes are well documented historical fact and the "clean Wehrmacht" myth is well debunked by now outside of Nazi sympathiser circles. Asking for links puts you in company with those who demand "proof" that the holocaust occurred.

    Here's a quick one anyway: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-20698098


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Have you considered the feelings of people/nations of that time about Russia, and communism?

    No idea what you're talking about here.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    It wasn't necessary though. Considering the scale of material and manpower that the allies had at their disposal, especially after the invasion of Russia, the outcome of the war wasn't in doubt.


    The outcome of the war was very much in doubt after the invasion of Russia, which was expected to fall many times until the tide turned in 1943. Certainly by 1945 Germany could not win, but it would not surrender and continued to fight. How would you prosecute the last months of the war if strategic bombing was off the table? Tell tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Allied troops that they'll have to take one for the team because Klaz thinks bombing is mean?

    Deleted User wrote: »
    In any case, there's references around that show that the bombing didn't hamper the German industry that was directed towards the war effort. It was an attack aimed to increase the number of refugees and increase the demands on German supplies/resources. The intentional targeting of civilians.


    Dresden was a major industrial centre churning out war materiel. It was also a major logistics centre through which tens of thousands of German troops could move through daily to reinforce the front lines, sadly for the same reason it was full of refugees.



    Strategic bombing's effect on German industry, at Dresden and elsewhere, was undeniable. However it was never the war winning weapon that the RAF and USAAAF promised it would be. The British approach of targeting civilian housing was flawed and morally difficult to defend but a realistic approach to their capabilities in 1941-1943. The US targeting of oil infrastructure and other bottlenecks was more effective but beyond their capabilities until 1944. In short it wasn't nice but in a total war against a genocidal enemy they didn't have anything better.


    Deleted User wrote: »
    We know that Hitler and the Nazi's were awful people with fcuked up intentions. It's just that some of us aren't particularly interested in wiping the slate clean for the allies who behaved abhorrently many times throughout and after the war.


    I don't think you're a Nazi sympathiser but I do think you're understanding of this issue is flawed as a result of fallacies on this topic spread on the internet and elsewhere by, among others, Nazi sympathisers. I suggest you read a book on the topic, Richard Overy's The Bombing War is a good recent one.


  • #75
    inforfun
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 20,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭inforfun


    bombardement_rotterdam_02.jpg

    5 years earlier. Rotterdam May 1940. My dad was 7 and living there when that happened. And then came the hunger winter of 44\45
    Dont expect sympathy from me for germans. Never had it, never will have.


  • #76
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    inforfun wrote: »
    bombardement_rotterdam_02.jpg

    5 years earlier. Rotterdam May 1940. My dad was 7 and living there when that happened. And then came the hunger winter of 44\45
    Dont expect sympathy from me for germans. Never had it, never will have.

    I'd always have sympathy for individuals facing the horrors of war regardless of the crimes of their side. That sympathy doesn't change the fact that bombing Dresden was a necessary evil though.


  • #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    Nazi Germany's uniquely extreme policies of racial persecution are a historical fact, not "Allied Propaganda". There is no equivalence between Nazi Germany and the racism and anti-semitism sadly common elsewhere at the time.

    You're jumping over points, and answering them as if the point made was different. I didn't dispute Nazi racial policies, nor did I claim them to be allied propaganda. You're reading what you want to read rather than dealing with what's written.

    Until you actually respond to what I wrote, there's little point following up on this. Unless the whole point is to move away from what I originally wrote?
    Wehrmacht war crimes are well documented historical fact and the "clean Wehrmacht" myth is well debunked by now outside of Nazi sympathiser circles. Asking for links puts you in company with those who demand "proof" that the holocaust occurred.

    Wehrmach war crimes are well documented now. Once again, you're applying the wonderful ability of hindsight, and suggesting that the allies knew everything that you have access to. They didn't. Excesses in warfare were accepted as being relatively normal, but the degree of excess that Wehrmacht and SS troops engaged in wasn't commonly known until much later in the war.

    You're very quick to assign labels to posters who disagree with you, just as you're also very quick to post unrelated content in response to other peoples posts.
    Here's a quick one anyway: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-20698098

    No dates covering it's operation, nor any real details about what they found.

    "During the Battle of Britain in 1940, captured Luftwaffe pilots were held initially at Trent Park. The rooms at Trent Park had been equipped with hidden microphones that allowed the British to listen in to the pilots' conversations. This provided information about the German pilots' views on a number of matters, including the relative strengths and weaknesses of German aircraft.[10]

    But we're looking for generals, not luftwaffe or submarine crews...

    Later in the war it was used as a special prisoner-of-war camp (the 'Cockfosters Cage'[11]) for captured German generals and staff officers."

    Wiki " These Axis forces finally surrendered in May 1943, leaving the Allies with around 260,000 enemy prisoners of war on their hands."

    "Britain's own German prisoners from the Desert War were held in camps in the Middle East, with the exception of a few high-ranking officers who were sent to Britain for interrogation"

    So, these generals and the information they revealed came about as late as 1943...

    As I said, you tend to apply hindsight rather than appreciate what was known at the time of the war itself.
    No idea what you're talking about here.

    Then, I'll just let it go, because I can't be bothered.
    The outcome of the war was very much in doubt after the invasion of Russia, which was expected to fall many times until the tide turned in 1943. Certainly by 1945 Germany could not win, but it would not surrender and continued to fight. How would you prosecute the last months of the war if strategic bombing was off the table? Tell tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Allied troops that they'll have to take one for the team because Klaz thinks bombing is mean?

    Ahh but I didn't say for strategic bombing to be off the table. Once more, you're making leaps... and I'm not terribly interested in following you, because you keep doing it.

    I wouldn't mind engaging in a discussion with you about WW2 but you seem incapable of replying to what I've wrote, and instead, feel the need to go off on a separate tangent. You've done this a few times now, and I have no belief that you won't continue doing it. No point engaging in a long discussion with you.


  • #78
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    Blaze420 wrote: »
    What’s wrong with what he said? If they could do the same to ISIS these days would you be hand wringing as well?


    What a stupid comparison. All kinds of asshats from around the globe flocked to ISIS to commit war crimes nobody forced them to go to Syria/Iraq etc.. . The vast majority of German people had no choice but to join the German army they couldn't just jump on a plane and head to Bermuda and soak up some sun until it was over.


  • #79
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Blaze420 wrote: »
    What’s wrong with what he said? If they could do the same to ISIS these days would you be hand wringing as well?

    This is just the argument that Isis/Taliban/Hezbollah (select Middle Eastern/Islamic bogey man organisation of choice) advances for their indiscriminate attacks against Western Civilians. "They're all to blame; they tolerate,nay encourage, their governments to make war on our civilians. THEY MUST PAY!"

    Aithníon cíaróg......


  • #80
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    [Deleted User] wrote: »

    Ahh but I didn't say for strategic bombing to be off the table. Once more, you're making leaps... and I'm not terribly interested in following you, because you keep doing it.

    I wouldn't mind engaging in a discussion with you about WW2 but you seem incapable of replying to what I've wrote, and instead, feel the need to go off on a separate tangent. You've done this a few times now, and I have no belief that you won't continue doing it. No point engaging in a long discussion with you.

    Just tell me what you are saying then, as clearly as possible.


  • #81
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Blaze420 wrote: »
    Nope but give me a button and I’d press it no problems, couldn’t care less

    I think you'll find there's a knob on your head.....


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  • #82
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Germany's racial policies were exaggerated to a large degree by the propagandists on the Allied side. Apart from the anti Jewish side of it, the rest existed only on paper if at all.If you search it online you will find pictures of coloured people in German uniform.

    People of all races and colours served in the German armed forces and were treated the same as their German comrades (and this was at a time when there was segregation based on race in the American army).

    And this is a quote from Hitler on the Chinese "I do not regard them as inferior to us,indeed I readily admit that their history is far greater than ours".

    I don't think you would ever hear a comment like that coming from Churchill.


  • #83
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    archer22 wrote: »
    Germany's racial policies were exaggerated to a large degree by the propagandists on the Allied side. Apart from the anti Jewish side of it, the rest existed only on paper if at all.

    You think Hitler's anti-Slav rhetoric, policies, and massacres were on paper?

    Jaysis.


  • #84
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    You think Hitler's anti-Slav rhetoric, policies, and massacres were on paper?

    Jaysis.

    Are you denying that millions of Slavs served in the German army?


  • #85
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    archer22 wrote: »
    Are you denying that millions of Slavs served in the German army?

    What? Answer the question.


  • #86
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    What? Answer the question.

    Fcuking answer it yourself :rolleyes:


  • #87
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,848 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    RThe same applies to Dresden. It was a necessary evil forced on the world by the genocidal aggression of Nazi Germany.

    "The world"?

    Nope, Britain and the US. Two nations up to their eyeballs in genocide, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid.


  • #88
    Quackster
    Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,731 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    JayZeus wrote: »
    Great pictures and I genuinely take some satisfaction from knowing that many German civilians suffered terrible deaths during those bombings. They had plenty of blood on their hands as a people by then and very few were innocent or had no role to play in their war effort, or the suffering of those sent to their deaths in the camps.

    Spectacular stuff.

    Wow. That is one sick, twisted, perverse piece of horse manure.


  • #89
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Looking at the pictures in the first post it's mental that some of the buildings walls are still up. Like, the the interiors got leveled but not completely destroyed. Freaky. Hollow shells left behind.


  • #90
    Tacitus Kilgore
    Registered Users Posts: 2,128 ✭✭✭Tacitus Kilgore


    B.A._Baracus wrote: »
    Looking at the pictures in the first post it's mental that some of the buildings walls are still up. Like, the the interiors got leveled but not completely destroyed. Freaky. Hollow shells left behind.

    It was the ferocity of the firestorm afaik, anything that could burn was completely incinerated.



    It's horrifying what we humans can do to each other, and the planet.


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  • #91
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    "The world"?

    Nope, Britain and the US. Two nations up to their eyeballs in genocide, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid.

    What alternative to strategic bombing do you propose they should have done?

    The Soviets didn't bother with strategic bombing but the advance of their forces across Europe was hardly any less horrifying in its effects on the civilian population.


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