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Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

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  • Options
    #3032
    realflash1982
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭realflash1982


    woohoo!!! wrote: »
    There's no legal impediment in the planning act re the 4 week appeal period. It is practice that after a decision no council will talk to the applicant while the appeal period is live. They can afterwards but this can just be a phone call, there's no obligation to set up a sit down meeting.

    As regards private information to confirm local needs, you need to redact the private information on a letter say from Revenue, they just want the address and a date, confirming you have lived there since whatever date. They don't want and cannot make public the details of the letter from Revenue, as in that info is private and GDPR rules.

    All the details other than name,date and address were blurred out on the letters provided. They would have been better off in-validating the application rather than letting it runs its course knowing full well it was an essential part of the application.


  • Options
    #3033
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    realflash1982 wrote: »
    All the details other than name,date and address were blurred out on the letters provided. They would have been better off in-validating the application rather than letting it runs its course knowing full well it was an essential part of the application.

    Suggest this was not the primary reason for refusal.


  • Options
    #3034
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    realflash1982 wrote: »
    All the details other than name,date and address were blurred out on the letters provided. They would have been better off in-validating the application rather than letting it runs its course knowing full well it was an essential part of the application.
    Best bet then is contact a local councillor to ask what exactly should be sent in/what will they accept to set out local needs.


  • Options
    #3035
    realflash1982
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭realflash1982


    BryanF wrote: »
    Suggest this was not the primary reason for refusal.


    You are correct. We have a councillor on the case who has asked some questions and the main issue is linear development which was never raised in a favourable pre-plan thousands of euro's ago. This local need issue has been added to re-inforce the liner development refusal.

    Pretty poor on their behalf. They have all of the information to prove the local need but have chosen not to use so that it can be added along with a linear development refusal . As most will know, exceptions can be made to linear development where an applicant is local and has no other land available to them.


  • Options
    #3036
    Reati
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭Reati


    realflash1982 wrote: »
    They have all of the information to prove the local need but have chosen not to use so that it can be added along with a linear development refusal

    I'm being a little nosy so feel free to ignore but what is your local need? If the location is outside the Settlement strategy for the area and doesn't meet whats defined as local need are they likely going to drop the local needs thing?


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    #3037
    realflash1982
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭realflash1982


    Reati wrote: »
    I'm being a little nosy so feel free to ignore but what is your local need? If the location is outside the Settlement strategy for the area and doesn't meet whats defined as local need are they likely going to drop the local needs thing?

    My local need is born and grew up in area, still live in area in rented accomodation.
    Parents live 2km from proposed site.
    Kids in school in the area. All happening within a 2km radius of proposed site.
    There is no development plan prohibiting development in this area.

    There is a recently granted application less than 1km from our site. Not only is it also linear development, but it extends the pattern. Our site is infill in a line of homes 20 long.


  • Options
    #3038
    Reati
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭Reati


    Having been through it myself in the past, I'll play the part of the hardest planner (assuming this is a somewhat rurally area)
    realflash1982 wrote: »
    My local need is born and grew up in area, still live in area in rented accomodation.
    Parents live 2km from proposed site.

    This isn't proof you need to live in the area. All that shows is you have a tie to the area but that is not a need. That's why they told you the things that wouldn't be acceptable as they only show a tie, not a need.

    Technically, you already have a house (I know it's rented) too, so why do you need to build one. I've heard this one before (and it's completely unfair imo!!)
    realflash1982 wrote: »
    Kids in school in the area.
    There might only a need if there is no suitable housing for sale/rent within a reasonable distance of the school. Think about transport to school and if without living there you'd have to move schools and uproot your kids.
    realflash1982 wrote: »
    There is no development plan prohibiting development in this area.

    Check what the development plan for the area is and if you meet it. All areas have a development plan.
    realflash1982 wrote: »
    There is a recently granted application less than 1km from our site. Not only is it also linear development, but it extends the pattern. Our site is infill in a line of homes 20 long.

    I'd watch using this as a rebuttal if that's a plan. This could harm your chances because a case will be made that that was the last house that could be built and another could be the straw that breaks camels back etc.

    They don't approach it with any emotion (nor should they to be fair). Not fully knowing your situation but it is the desire to stop one off house outside established areas.

    Best of luck with it and hope you get a good outcome!


  • Options
    #3039
    realflash1982
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭realflash1982


    Reati wrote: »
    Having been through it myself in the past, I'll play the part of the hardest planner (assuming this is a somewhat rurally area)



    This isn't proof you need to live in the area. All that shows is you have a tie to the area but that is not a need. That's why they told you the things that wouldn't be acceptable as they only show a tie, not a need.

    Technically, you already have a house (I know it's rented) too, so why do you need to build one. I've heard this one before (and it's completely unfair imo!!)


    There might only a need if there is no suitable housing for sale/rent within a reasonable distance of the school. Think about transport to school and if without living there you'd have to move schools and uproot your kids.



    Check what the development plan for the area is and if you meet it. All areas have a development plan.



    I'd watch using this as a rebuttal if that's a plan. This could harm your chances because a case will be made that that was the last house that could be built and another could be the straw that breaks camels back etc.

    They don't approach it with any emotion (nor should they to be fair). Not fully knowing your situation but it is the desire to stop one off house outside established areas.

    Best of luck with it and hope you get a good outcome!

    I take all your points on board but there are no other rental options in the area and very few houses are ever available for purchase.

    It makes no sense for me to build in another settlement area, away from family and long school commutes to drop off and pick up kids. I would spend half my days on the road.

    They can play the local need not met card all they want but the fact remains they discussed local need in my pre-plan and they agreed that I had a strong case for that and just needed to put forward the evidence, school letter etc.

    If they mentioned a local need or linear development issue in the beginning, at least we could have walked away along with our house savings. As it stands we are now 8k out of pocket as we pursued a path due to a favourable and encouraging pre-plan, now for them to change their mind and dig their heels in.

    This now severely impacts both our self build and buying potential in the future due to savings losses. I know many have been down this road and lost more, but it is still a difficult one to swallow.


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    #3040
    clearview99
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭clearview99


    Hi, I can anyone offer some advice on my situation?

    I've recently been turned down (twice) by my LA for planning permission. The site is in my mother's home village and while we don't live there two of her sisters (my aunts) continue to. In addition to this linkage I have also several other cousins living in the area. The site is also on the boundary of planning zones and as a result I am merely metres out of the 'local need radius' that the LA are looking for. One of the above aunts lives with her husband having returned home from the UK ten years ago - their children and grandchildren continue to live there. The other aunt lives by herself, is not married and has no children. The CDP states that they will look favourably where an applicant is seeking permission in order to live near 'elderly parents or near elderly relatives who have no children' in order to provide 'security, care and support'. I have substantiated this with medical evidence which outlines the care needs of these relatives however the council is unwilling to acknowledge this as I cannot claim to be 'a full time carer' despite the fact that the CDP makes no reference to this. They are also saying that I am not local enough despite the family linkage and connections that I have demonstrated. At the end of the day my agent is satisfied that my need and the needs of my elderly relatives, as per the CDP, is sufficient to grant permission. We have seen where other applicants have had permission granted by the LA for very similar situations. What is the best way for me to fight this? Thanks


  • Options
    #3041
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    clearview99 wrote: »
    Hi, I can anyone offer some advice on my situation?

    I've recently been turned down (twice) by my LA for planning permission. The site is in my mother's home village and while we don't live there two of her sisters (my aunts) continue to. In addition to this linkage I have also several other cousins living in the area. The site is also on the boundary of planning zones and as a result I am merely metres out of the 'local need radius' that the LA are looking for. One of the above aunts lives with her husband having returned home from the UK ten years ago - their children and grandchildren continue to live there. The other aunt lives by herself, is not married and has no children. The CDP states that they will look favourably where an applicant is seeking permission in order to live near 'elderly parents or near elderly relatives who have no children' in order to provide 'security, care and support'. I have substantiated this with medical evidence which outlines the care needs of these relatives however the council is unwilling to acknowledge this as I cannot claim to be 'a full time carer' despite the fact that the CDP makes no reference to this. They are also saying that I am not local enough despite the family linkage and connections that I have demonstrated. At the end of the day my agent is satisfied that my need and the needs of my elderly relatives, as per the CDP, is sufficient to grant permission. We have seen where other applicants have had permission granted by the LA for very similar situations. What is the best way for me to fight this? Thanks

    Appeal it to the board if you’re convinced the PA are wrong in their decision to refuse you planning permission.


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    #3042
    realflash1982
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭realflash1982


    There is a site for sale locally with full planning permission. Looking at the application online there were was a refusal on this originally before it was eventually granted based on the applicants 'Local Need'.

    Is it possible for them to sell/transfer this site with planning permission to somebody else? Does the prospective purchaser just need to meet the same 'local need' or is it more complicated than that?


  • Options
    #3043
    Reati
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭Reati


    realflash1982 wrote: »
    There is a site for sale locally with full planning permission. Looking at the application online there were was a refusal on this originally before it was eventually granted based on the applicants 'Local Need'.

    Is it possible for them to sell/transfer this site with planning permission to somebody else? Does the prospective purchaser just need to meet the same 'local need' or is it more complicated than that?

    There is normally a condition against sale within 7 years without explicit written council permission to the sale. This is 7 years from it getting entered to the deeds iirc not from date built.

    This is to stop people building for profit because they might meet local need.

    edit: Sorry, I misread and thought the house was built. Eitherway, the PP was granted to the applicants where local needs apply and was a condition of it, the council would need to ok the sale IIRC.


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    #3044
    ProfanityURL
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭ProfanityURL


    My fiance and I are planning to build a house, but we do not want to live in either of respective home areas so we cannot apply for planning under local needs. We are looking at either Galway, Offaly or Kildare at the moment and are considering buying a site to apply for planning, so we're trying to understand what our chances will be like in achieving planning. I've read the development plans for these counties but I find they have just confused me even further.

    Basically I was hoping to find answers to the following:

    1. Is it likely to be granted permission to build our own home considering we are not from the area? It seems a lot of people on this thread have discussed being denied PP even though they are from the area.
    2. Does it help if the house is located on the outskirts of a town or village rather than a "one off" roadside house in the countryside which the planners want to avoid?
    3. If we buy a site with an existing dwelling like a small cottage or run down house and essentially "attach" the house we want to build by incorporating the existing dwelling into the design, does that make it easier to get planning permission?


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    #3045
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,985 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ProfanityURL wrote: »
    My fiance and I are planning to build a house, but we do not want to live in either of respective home areas so we cannot apply for planning under local needs. We are looking at either Galway, Offaly or Kildare at the moment and are considering buying a site to apply for planning, so we're trying to understand what our chances will be like in achieving planning. I've read the development plans for these counties but I find they have just confused me even further.

    Basically I was hoping to find answers to the following:

    1. Is it likely to be granted permission to build our own home considering we are not from the area? It seems a lot of people on this thread have discussed being denied PP even though they are from the area.
    2. Does it help if the house is located on the outskirts of a town or village rather than a "one off" roadside house in the countryside which the planners want to avoid?
    3. If we buy a site with an existing dwelling like a small cottage or run down house and essentially "attach" the house we want to build by incorporating the existing dwelling into the design, does that make it easier to get planning permission?

    Yes it is.

    You need to find rural areas considered "structurally weak" in their development plan, and focus your site hunting there.

    Make sure whatever sites you look at comply with proper standards.


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    #3046
    realflash1982
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭realflash1982


    Can I ask, other than work, family, sport club involvement etc. What other reasons would one need to have to meet local need in an area?


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    #3047
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,985 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    realflash1982 wrote: »
    Can I ask, other than work, family, sport club involvement etc. What other reasons would one need to have to meet local need in an area?

    returning emigrant, medical....


  • Options
    #3048
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Reati wrote: »
    Having been through it myself in the past, I'll play the part of the hardest planner (assuming this is a somewhat rurally area)



    This isn't proof you need to live in the area. All that shows is you have a tie to the area but that is not a need. That's why they told you the things that wouldn't be acceptable as they only show a tie, not a need.

    Technically, you already have a house (I know it's rented) too, so why do you need to build one. I've heard this one before (and it's completely unfair imo!!)


    There might only a need if there is no suitable housing for sale/rent within a reasonable distance of the school. Think about transport to school and if without living there you'd have to move schools and uproot your kids.



    Check what the development plan for the area is and if you meet it. All areas have a development plan.



    I'd watch using this as a rebuttal if that's a plan. This could harm your chances because a case will be made that that was the last house that could be built and another could be the straw that breaks camels back etc.

    They don't approach it with any emotion (nor should they to be fair). Not fully knowing your situation but it is the desire to stop one off house outside established areas.

    Best of luck with it and hope you get a good outcome!


    Sorry to hijack that answer but you appear to be knowledgeable.

    Hypothetical situation. Suppose person A would like to build on their family land. The timeline for this is maybe 2-3 years.

    A relative's old cottage is being sold a few miles away. It wouldn't suit person A long term as the site is very tight and the house is tiny. If person A already had their own permission, the might buy the cottage and renovate it to rent it out. It would only suit a single person or a couple - no kids.
    If person A buys the cottage, I would assume that they are then saying goodbye to ever getting their planning for their own build (lets assume they would otherwise get it).

    Would there be any way to prevent this? I mean legally and above board of course. Maybe something like buying the cottage jointly with a sibling/parent or even setting up a company to buy and own the property and rent it out.


  • Options
    #3049
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Sorry to hijack that answer but you appear to be knowledgeable.

    Hypothetical situation. Suppose person A would like to build on their family land. The timeline for this is maybe 2-3 years.

    A relative's old cottage is being sold a few miles away. It wouldn't suit person A long term as the site is very tight and the house is tiny. If person A already had their own permission, the might buy the cottage and renovate it to rent it out. It would only suit a single person or a couple - no kids.
    If person A buys the cottage, I would assume that they are then saying goodbye to ever getting their planning for their own build (lets assume they would otherwise get it).

    Would there be any way to prevent this? I mean legally and above board of course. Maybe something like buying the cottage jointly with a sibling/parent or even setting up a company to buy and own the property and rent it out.

    Person A could always shut the F€&@ up and never mention the cottage.
    The Planning Authority are not the STASI.


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    #3050
    Reati
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭Reati


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Sorry to hijack that answer but you appear to be knowledgeable.

    Hypothetical situation. Suppose person A would like to build on their family land. The timeline for this is maybe 2-3 years.

    A relative's old cottage is being sold a few miles away. It wouldn't suit person A long term as the site is very tight and the house is tiny. If person A already had their own permission, the might buy the cottage and renovate it to rent it out. It would only suit a single person or a couple - no kids.
    If person A buys the cottage, I would assume that they are then saying goodbye to ever getting their planning for their own build (lets assume they would otherwise get it).

    Would there be any way to prevent this? I mean legally and above board of course. Maybe something like buying the cottage jointly with a sibling/parent or even setting up a company to buy and own the property and rent it out.

    This is an interesting scenario. I've not encountered so all theory before but I can throw out thoughts. You could in do this but it's a timing thing.

    Once you have planning granted they can't really revoke it unless you were fraudulent in the application or some cpo style stick goes down.

    Like, if someone builds a house then buys a second as an investment that doesn't effect the permission of the first house. you need somewhere to live during the construction so I think after permission would be fine.

    Now, where I'd be wary is if you ever need additional permission for the site / house you hope to built. I'd be of the mind that if the council thought you were trying to get one over on them they might make stuff a lot harder in future. Eps if they think you are doing it for speculation.

    So, I wouldn't buy the house or any house before you had permission. They will ask you and you will get refused and you don't want to forget to mention it and they find out later. The councils don't take kindly as they are getting strict on rural housing of late.


  • Options
    #3051
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Reati wrote: »
    This is an interesting scenario. I've not encountered so all theory before but I can throw out thoughts. You could in do this but it's a timing thing.

    Once you have planning granted they can't really revoke it unless you were fraudulent in the application or some cpo style stick goes down.

    Like, if someone builds a house then buys a second as an investment that doesn't effect the permission of the first house. you need somewhere to live during the construction so I think after permission would be fine.

    Now, where I'd be wary is if you ever need additional permission for the site / house you hope to built. I'd be of the mind that if the council thought you were trying to get one over on them they might make stuff a lot harder in future. Eps if they think you are doing it for speculation.

    So, I wouldn't buy the house or any house before you had permission. They will ask you and you will get refused and you don't want to forget to mention it and they find out later. The councils don't take kindly as they are getting strict on rural housing of late.


    Yeah, I wouldn't be talking about "forgetting" or lying on any planning application. Obviously if a person owned another house then they don't have a need any more. But what about owning a share in a house or a share in a company that owns a house. If they never lived in the other house.

    Or alternatively, suppose you bought the house and rented it out on a long term lease. Then a year or two later you apply for permission. You can't live in the other house due to the lease (although maybe there might be provision to break that lease if you needed it yourself!).

    To repeat, I'm not asking for dodgy things. Just asking whether it could potentially be done legally and above board. No deception or omissions asked.


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    #3052
    share_bear
    Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭share_bear


    New Query:

    I would be grateful if anyone could clarify whether the local needs provision applied to areas zoned Rural VILLAGE.
    I realize it applies to rural cluster and one-off rural, but I have read through Fingal's Dev plan and I can't figure it out for Rural Village. please help!


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    #3053
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Probably not the right place to ask, as it's not an issue in the 'real' sense of the word, but I'm wondering about the cost of sticking a 1st storey extension onto my house, on top of an existing ground floor extension (the foundations are sufficient to take the weight).

    How would I go about getting a price on this, without annoying someone? I literally just want a guide price, so I can figure out if it's worth my while or not. I'd need to get planning permission etc. which I haven't, and likely wouldn't if it'd be out of my price range, but at the same time, I'd like to get an idea on where I'd stand. just don't want to be deliberately wasting a builder's time or telling them lies about work I plan on doing, though I might not even do it.


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    #3054
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,985 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Probably not the right place to ask, as it's not an issue in the 'real' sense of the word, but I'm wondering about the cost of sticking a 1st storey extension onto my house, on top of an existing ground floor extension (the foundations are sufficient to take the weight).

    How would I go about getting a price on this, without annoying someone? I literally just want a guide price, so I can figure out if it's worth my while or not. I'd need to get planning permission etc. which I haven't, and likely wouldn't if it'd be out of my price range, but at the same time, I'd like to get an idea on where I'd stand. just don't want to be deliberately wasting a builder's time or telling them lies about work I plan on doing, though I might not even do it.

    I'd budget for about 100% min of what it would cost if you were building from scratch on the ground floor.

    You may need engineered ring beams, you'll definitely need to upgrade the ceiling.


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    #3055
    Asitis2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭Asitis2019


    I'm not sure if the this the right forum or thread

    A housing development is close to completion near my house. It is 90% complete, but so far there is very little information on the houses. A rumour is going around that the houses are going to be for social/council housing. I'm not inclined to believe this - the houses are on prime residential land, and are developed to high specification.

    However, there has been no information, and at least two houses close to the development are now on the market at prices that I would say that are less than the market rate.

    How would one know for definite if these houses are for social? One there be some specific aspect of the planning application where I would find the information? (The volume of information on amendments to amendments of applications mean it is time consuming to go through all this info)

    Thanks in advance
    Asitis2019


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    #3056
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    Asitis2019 wrote: »
    I'm not sure if the this the right forum or thread

    A housing development is close to completion near my house. It is 90% complete, but so far there is very little information on the houses. A rumour is going around that the houses are going to be for social/council housing. I'm not inclined to believe this - the houses are on prime residential land, and are developed to high specification.

    However, there has been no information, and at least two houses close to the development are now on the market at prices that I would say that are less than the market rate.

    How would one know for definite if these houses are for social? One there be some specific aspect of the planning application where I would find the information? (The volume of information on amendments to amendments of applications mean it is time consuming to go through all this info)

    Thanks in advance
    Asitis2019
    Check the planning file online (look at stuff dated more recently), check the councils or housing body website for announcements. Assuming it's zoned land, 10% will be part v social housing. The Council or a housing body may strike a deal to buy more. As regards prices, they've been dropping recently.


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    #3057
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    woohoo!!! wrote: »
    Check the planning file online (look at stuff dated more recently), check the councils or housing body website for announcements. Assuming it's zoned land, 10% will be part v social housing. The Council or a housing body may strike a deal to buy more. As regards prices, they've been dropping recently.

    Indeed, the Part V houses will be indicated in the plans. The Local Authorities are actively buying entire developments at the moment, something that is underpinning the housing crisis.


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    #3058
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    Indeed, the Part V houses will be indicated in the plans. The Local Authorities are actively buying entire developments at the moment, something that is underpinning the housing crisis.
    Yes, I'm aware of several such ones, including one to finish off our estate. For whatever reason, private supply has stalled the last few months. In any event the houses need to be built.


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    #3059
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    woohoo!!! wrote: »
    Yes, I'm aware of several such ones, including one to finish off our estate. For whatever reason, private supply has stalled the last few months. In any event the houses need to be built.

    Yes but the Local Authorities should build their own houses. This mass buying is pricing other buyers out of the market.


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    #3060
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,985 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    Yes but the Local Authorities should build their own houses. This mass buying is pricing other buyers out of the market.

    Should but will not.

    They do not want to take on the costs, maintenance, and pensions of workers


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    #3061
    woohoo!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 803 ✭✭✭woohoo!!!


    Beteeen councils and housing bodies playing catch up in both builds/renovations and HAP, the house build and rental market is being distorted. Can include affordable purchase schemes in that. Private construction has focused on build to rent, offices, hotels and student accommodation where there are higher profit margins. The days of huge semi d estates are over (cheapest to construct, highest profit margins) are done cos of density requirements and that semi d generates enormous car numbers cos largely useless for public transport.

    It will be the mid 2020s, assuming no major shock or recession b4 the whole housing market stabilises. And we need a heavy skew to one and two beds and some 4 and 5 beds, rather than the traditional 3 bed, which we have too much of.


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