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Germans against bailing out Ireland

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    #2
    hellboy99
    Registered Users Posts: 6,219 ✭✭✭hellboy99


    Can't really blame them to be honest.

    If it was the other way around and it was us been ask to bail out another country, what do you think the people here would say.


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    #3
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    So there goes the EU bailout?


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    #4
    Sea Sharp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭Sea Sharp


    I wonder could the European Central Bank print off bailouts for EU nations such as ourselves?


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    #5
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    Hardly a surprise. Why should the German's bail out countries that acted irresponsibly?
    We have been one of the worst countries for personal borrowing over the last few years, egged on by our government of course.
    So what's in it for the German's in giving us money. They have been quite generous to us for the last 20 years. So I dont think they have any moral or practical reasons for giving us a cent.


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    #6
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,472 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    This all assumes that what the average German thinks is important. Their government will not allow the Euro to be undermined by the incompetence of Cowen and Company.

    I am waiting for the boards poster to show up and talk about how the Germans have no right to dictate to anyone given their history. I reckon that boards poster should be appointed ambassador to Germany for maximum hilarity.


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    #7
    Martyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭Martyr


    who might that be now? :)


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    #8
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    gurramok wrote: »
    We are on our own or is it IMF intervention? :)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0717/breaking44.html?via=mr

    Opinions?

    Good on them. Whether at crunch time they do bail us out or not is another thing, but I'm glad that they are making it clear that we have to sort out our own mess. Puts pressure on the government to get its act in order, and on the people to get realistic. Also lets us know that Lisbon is not a game and we can't use it to extort money from the EU. German government ministers have said similar things before, but need to come out and specifically say that they will not be bailing out Ireland in any shape or form.


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    #9
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    why would they bail out a country that pays its hospital consultans twice as much as thier german counterparts , countries in need of bailouts dont do that


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    #10
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    German people != German government / EU government, tbh.


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    #11
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    The real question is would the German Government be willing to pay €1.5bn/yr in order to save the integrity of their currency. What the german people would like really doesn't come into it, the bailout would be the lesser of the two evils I would imagine in the eyes of the germans. €1.5bn isn't much in the German governments budget, their federal budget spend for 2010 €327.7bn with a deficit of €86.1bn

    A german bailout would probably be worse than an IMF one in terms of the swinging cuts that it would impose. In order for the german people to be able to digest it, the bailout would have to be seen as addressing fundamental flaws in our cost base, and then Germanising it. This would be in order to protect the parties that approved of it at the german ballot box.

    I hope it won't come to it though and we are able to get our affairs in order on our own.


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    #12
    FGR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭FGR


    Well.

    We might get excellent public transport out of it.


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    #13
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    What do you expect from a public poll ?

    Go around Irish streets and ask the people if Ireland should spend a billion on bailing out the Faroer Islands, what do you think the answer would be?

    No effen way ...that would be it :D.

    What the EU bureaucracy will decide to do once they realise that the basket case that is the Irish finances severly threatens the integritiy of the Euro, that is an entirely different matter.

    One thing you can be sure of though ...they won't ask us either if we agree or disagree with the severe cuts in public spending they are going to impose in exchange for any bailout.


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    #14
    iseethelight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 547 ✭✭✭iseethelight


    Our chancellor will make the correct decision for the glory and good of our 4th Reich.


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    #15
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,078 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    the_syco wrote: »
    German people != German government / EU government, tbh.

    That is true, but some people around here, and probably government, think that an EU/ECB bailout would be much more preferable to the IMF.
    I have my doubts because at this stage the EU, the ECB just like all foreign investors view Ireland as a very badly run corrupt tinpot country, that blew their economy on a spending spurgle, both in personal and state terms.
    All they have to do is look at the mess we made of our regulatory authorities and the fact we still haven't imposed sanctions on the ones responsible for the meltdown.
    In fact we rewarded them with early retirement and lump sum payouts.

    Why should EU/ECB offer us better terms than the IMF ?
    Why should they tolerate us spending huge amounts of money on social welfare, on high state employees salaries and on bailing out the incompetence of our bankers and developers ?

    It would be a very brave Chancellor that told their people we are going to use your taxes to bailout another country's bunch of ungrateful, incompetents who want to continue to live in the manner they became accustomed to during the days of cheap credit. :rolleyes:


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    #16
    creeper1
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭creeper1


    The Germans must bail out Ireland if necessary or their project of the euro will go down the tubes. Ireland joined the euro - it didnt have to and we expect some payments in return for doing them this favour.

    David McWilliams has written and spoken about this on radio. He sees it as a war situation. You must use all weapons at your disposle. He recommends no "yes" vote on Lisbon unless there is substatial help given to Ireland. No 'yes' vote will mean the Germans and their European project is stalled. I don't even think Ireland approves of an enlarged EU. What dawm right do the Germans have of forcing this down our throats?

    I repeat - What right do they have to enlarge the EU and take on these backward semi third world countries in the east? That's where the problem lies.

    We will be able to repay any debts soon enough anyway once the "smart economy" programme starts to pay off.


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    #17
    kevteljeur
    Registered Users Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭kevteljeur


    creeper1 wrote: »
    The Germans must bail out Ireland if necessary or their project of the euro will go down the tubes. Ireland joined the euro - it didnt have to and we expect some payments in return for doing them this favour.

    David McWilliams has written and spoken about this on radio. He sees it as a war situation. You must use all weapons at your disposle. He recommends no "yes" vote on Lisbon unless there is substatial help given to Ireland. No 'yes' vote will mean the Germans and their European project is stalled. I don't even think Ireland approves of an enlarged EU. What dawm right do the Germans have of forcing this down our throats?

    I repeat - What right do they have to enlarge the EU and take on these backward semi third world countries in the east? That's where the problem lies.


    Are you serious? The little island of 4m inhabitants, in in a dire and rapidly deteriorating economic situation is going to try and blackmail the powerful German economic machine over it's Euro? The little country with a debt-based economy telling the much larger country with the export-based economy which way is up in the EU?

    You might recall that Brian Cowen went over to Germany a few months ago, promising the Irish electorate that he would negotiate funds and bailouts from the EU (And we really mean Germany). One short meeting with Angela Merkel later, he was back home with a sheepish look on his face and the harshest budget we've seen here in many long years. Don't think for one second that Ireland holds the cards here. It's safe to say that he he was told that if he didn't come back with a Lisbon treaty approval and savage cuts in expenditure, he needn't show his face there again.

    The Euro did as much for Ireland as for any other EU state, and don't forget the many long years of EC/EU subsidies. It hasn't been forgotten in those wealthier countries, even by the 'man on the street', that Ireland happily absorbed a lot of money over the years. Certainly that isn't lost on Germany and France.

    Could it even be possible that Ireland will be forced to leave the Euro zone altogether? It's unlikely, but if Ireland is the biggest danger to the Euro zone while bringing very little to the table, could it happen? (I direct that to any of the regulars here who might know more about the ins and outs of that scenario). If Ireland deteriorated much further and refused to stabilise the economy, and particularly didn't raise corporate taxes and introduce more regulation, it might be a possibility, although I imagine it would be effectively tabled overnight.

    creeper1 wrote: »
    We will be able to repay any debts soon enough anyway once the "smart economy" programme starts to pay off.

    In about 10 to 15 years. Very few countries have ever built an economy around 'knowing stuff'. At the end of the day, you need to make products and sell them, to have a unique proposition. I agree that Ireland could do it, but only as long we understand that this will be a country with low wage levels and low costs (at the '80s levels)), and that the innovation comes from within. It certainly won't come from the current government, and I very much doubt from the current opposition either, but that's personal opinion.



    .


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    #18
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    kevteljeur wrote: »

    The Euro did as much for Ireland as for any other EU state.
    I disagree with this. We benefited from the removal of variable exchange rates like the other countries but we suffered from ECB base rates that were almost the precise opposite from what we should have had given our overheating economy. Rates were set for Europe as a whole but one of the problems with this is that you are going to have exaggerated booms and busts in peripheral economies.

    I agree, though, with other points that we can't use this to blackmail Germany, whose attitude will be, quite rightly, that if the Euro does not suit us, we should get out.


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    #19
    Galen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 664 ✭✭✭Galen


    Well we keep putting the people who got us into this mess in the first place, who in their right mind would this country money.


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    #20
    Fat_Fingers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭Fat_Fingers


    Why should Germany save Ireland? EU membership means nothing. I really do mean why, its not a rhetorical question.
    EU/Germany didn't save Latvia. They let IMF go in and literally destroy them. 40% pay cuts for the public service, pensions and social welfare cut etc..


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    #21
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Fat_Fingers wrote: »
    Why should Germany save Ireland? EU membership means nothing. I really do mean why, its not a rhetorical question.
    EU/Germany didn't save Latvia. They let IMF go in and literally destroy them. 40% pay cuts for the public service, pensions and social welfare cut etc..

    like dunnes stores , the difference is were irish seems to be the view many of us hold


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    #22
    craichoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭craichoe


    irish_bob wrote: »
    like dunnes stores , the difference is were irish seems to be the view many of us hold

    I have absolutely no clue what that means...........


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    #23
    7mountpleasant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭7mountpleasant


    Fat_Fingers wrote: »
    Why should Germany save Ireland? EU membership means nothing. I really do mean why, its not a rhetorical question.
    EU/Germany didn't save Latvia. They let IMF go in and literally destroy them. 40% pay cuts for the public service, pensions and social welfare cut etc..

    If only the public sector unions would wake up and smell the coffee and have a look at Latvia maybe then they might stop holding this country to economic ransom and at the same time actually keep some of the special position there members have in society as opposed to external diktat which brings them into line with reality.


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    #24
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    craichoe wrote: »
    I have absolutely no clue what that means...........

    we think the rules of going bankruptcy are different for us and that we dont have to accept cuts so as to avoid such bankruptcy , we also believe germany or someone else will bail us out without us changing the way we do things


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    #25
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    germans would know we woundnt spend the money wisely anyway,they have a good economy still regardless of the recession,the euro is victim of its own success aswell,its too strong for small countries like ours,not much favour been done across the water in england where they had the power to devalue their currency and encourage spending again/moving business out of here up to north/uk because its cheaper to do business


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    #26
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Bail us out and what? spend the money on the most overpaid staff, inefficient public service and bloated social welfare bill! No way should they bail us out!


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    #27
    kmick
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭kmick


    Two points
    1. Who asked them to bail us out? Its only hypothetical and is like asking a German to spend money on rainbows asking them to give money to Ireland. In general they despise the Irish.
    2. They are already bailing us out in the form of very low interest ECB loans to our banks which the banks are availing of liberally. While its not directly coming from the German exchequer it might as well be.


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    #28
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    I think they are dead right.

    We really have to get ourselves out of this - and there are a lot of hard decisions to make. Pity we are not tackling them all.

    > Government wages
    > Pensions of elected officials - think it is a great idea - but how can you get a pension now in your 20s or 30s etc - why not wait until normal pensionable age.
    > Mess of the health system - how is Mary still there?
    > Mess of public finances
    > Buying our votes over the last few years - why wasn't that money saved

    I don't think I am the only one but think the only real way out of this mess is a complete overhaul of not only the government - but also our method of government - if it was up to me I would storm the dail right now and demand their total resignation.


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    #29
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    creeper1 wrote: »
    We will be able to repay any debts soon enough anyway once the "smart economy" programme starts to pay off.

    Where do you think 500,000 jobs are going to come from??? Just leave 3rd level research and all the "smart" talk aside for a minute... Who do you think is going to be going down to the CRO (Companies Registration Office), on Parnell Street over the next 36 months and starting up businesses that will create jobs for the 500,000 people who will be unemployed by the end of this year???

    It is going to take us at least 20-30 years, a whole generation, to create those jobs, assuming that we start doing the right things now, and there is still no sign of that happening!

    I'm honestly amazed and breathtaken and the pure naievity of your post above, as if there is some kind of plan or program somewhere to create all these jobs?!?!? If there is a strategy in place (and I'm not aware that there is), how come we are still seeing 10,000 job losses a month, 12 months into a recession???


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    #30
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Where do you think 500,000 jobs are going to come from???


    we will probably never get back to that level of employment again, hardly anyone does, and ours was a house of cards with so many employed in one sector (construction)

    but that does not mean we cannot have some jobs created, there are some being created as we speak so if we can get some even when things are that bad there is some hope


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    #31
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,078 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    creeper1 wrote: »
    The Germans must bail out Ireland if necessary or their project of the euro will go down the tubes. Ireland joined the euro - it didnt have to and we expect some payments in return for doing them this favour.

    David McWilliams has written and spoken about this on radio. He sees it as a war situation. You must use all weapons at your disposle. He recommends no "yes" vote on Lisbon unless there is substatial help given to Ireland. No 'yes' vote will mean the Germans and their European project is stalled. I don't even think Ireland approves of an enlarged EU. What dawm right do the Germans have of forcing this down our throats?

    I repeat - What right do they have to enlarge the EU and take on these backward semi third world countries in the east? That's where the problem lies.

    We will be able to repay any debts soon enough anyway once the "smart economy" programme starts to pay off.

    Are you for real ?
    We did them a favour by joining the EURO, FFS ahhhhh :eek:
    Who exactly do you think we are, we are a tiny portion of both the overall population and the economy of the EU.
    Talk about having dillusions of grandeur :rolleyes:

    In case it has slipped your mind (???) the EU, and Germany in particular has being pumping money into this country for the last 30 odd years and you appear to think they should make even more payments to us.
    Talk about a feeling of entitlement.

    A No vote will not mean the EU project is stalled, it will probably mean they will find a way forward without us and at this stage what exactly would the EU be missing ?

    It is a bit rich of Ireland and Irish people to spout on about taking on backward and semi third world poor nations when we were one of the worse and benifited most from EU memebrship.
    Why not check out a few archives and see what Ireland was like pre EEC and then come back to us.

    Smart economy me ar**.
    Are you parrotting the cr** that useless bent coughlan is always spouting.
    She was at it again yesterday.
    Take a look at our broadband infrastructure and you will see how good the basic infrastructure is for our smart economy :rolleyes:

    PS mobile broadband does not count as high speed reliable internet and you can tattoo that on the ar** of that other muppet eamon ryan.

    The more I read and listen to some Irish people the more I take on baord what my father used to say ...
    "all the smart ones left, leaving the connected lucky few and gobdaws who didn't know their ars* from their elbow"
    irish_bob wrote: »
    we think the rules of going bankruptcy are different for us and that we dont have to accept cuts so as to avoid such bankruptcy , we also believe germany or someone else will bail us out without us changing the way we do things

    Ah but we are different. Remember our bubble economy was different to all the others in the eocnomic history of the world.


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