Irish Naturalisation : processing time and final stage

sideshowsue · 27-04-2009 10:54am

Don't hold your breath. To put things into perspective, I applied back in August 2006. Last September (2008), INIS wrote and requested payslips, P21 and bank statements which I duly sent.

I haven't heard anything back yet. I ring about once a month, and they keep trolleying out the same lame excuses: waiting on Garda check, waiting on social welfare check. Waiting, waiting, waiting.

You should check out http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewforum.php?f=34 and this thread http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=25809 in particular.

ihatepatkenny · 27-04-2009 11:01am

Great links! From reading those forums, looks like it takes another 6-8 months to get those docs reviewed and approved, then another month or two for the approval to come through. Damn!

Serenity Now! · 27-04-2009 11:02am

Moriarty wrote: »

Why would you apply for citizenship in the first place if the administration of the country is so anathema to you that you've lost all respect for the countries people? Why do you expect to be granted citizenship if you have such distaste for the state and people?

People resident in this country have as much a right to complain about its failings as much as citizens of this country. You're just as unjustly presumptuous of the poster's opinion as the poster is with their equating Ireland's bureaucratic failings with its population.

My other half isn't an Irish citizen and has as much a right to point out this country's many failings as any of us.

SWL · 27-04-2009 12:38pm

sovtek wrote: »

The waiting times for LTR and citizenship are the largest obstacles to integration for immigrants. Why would I respect a population and want to integrate whose government treats me like a slave to a work permit. An EU directive states that it must take no more than six months to process naturalisation once the requisit timeframe has elapsed. Unfortunately the UK and Ireland are exempt from this directive. One wonders why.

Why should a population you clearly don't respect and clearly despise award you citizenship, simply because you asked for it?
Citizenship you will find is highly though of by the Irish population, and rightly so, checks should be carried out until the State (the individuals elected by the Irish citizens to administer policy in Ireland interest) are satisfied, your posts are full of the victim mentality, I think you are more interested in getting the passport rather than interest in integration or love of Ireland or respect for the Irish population.

The process might take time due to checks, and I as a citizen have no problem with that, Irish passports should not be handed out like confetti. It is a privilege and not a right. While you don't agree with Mr Lenihan clearly based on a basis view he is an elected official to the Dail with responsibility to look and the wider implications of citizenship and that is what he is doing.

RedPlanet · 27-04-2009 12:55pm

SWL wrote: »

It is a privilege and not a right.

Actually you are wrong. It is a right not a privilege, and so it should be.

SWL · 27-04-2009 1:26pm

RedPlanet wrote: »

Actually you are wrong. It is a right not a privilege, and so it should be.

It a right is it like to explain why

Serenity Now! · 27-04-2009 1:36pm

SWL wrote: »

It a right is it like to explain why

Regardless of your view of a country, if you fulfill the criteria to qualify for citizenship it is your RIGHT to claim it.

SWL · 27-04-2009 1:54pm

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Regardless of your view of a country, if you fulfill the criteria to qualify for citizenship it is your RIGHT to claim it.

The procedure put in place by the elected representatives of this country appears not to be fast enough for the poster, the criteria has not been meet in the eyes of the Gardi and Officials, but that is a mass racial conspiracy against him by the people of Ireland & their elected officials.

If you are going to exercise a right, maybe you should exercise a bit of gratitude to the citizenships who are putting you in a better position than you would be without it. Ireland is not a colonial power in my eyes it is a privilege, if we were a colonial power it would be a right.

Serenity Now! · 27-04-2009 1:57pm

SWL wrote: »

The procedure put in place by the elected representatives of this country appears not to be fast enough for the poster, the criteria has not been meet in the eyes of the Gardi and Officials, but that is a mass racial conspiracy against him by the people of Ireland & their elected officials

Yes maybe there is, in their eyes but the quote below is equally as ill-informed (not to mention OTT in melodrama). It is a right to anyone who qualifies for it. Plain and simple. Colonialism has eff all to do with this.

SWL wrote: »

If you are going to exercise a right, maybe you should exercise a bit of gratitude to the citizenships who are putting you in a better position than you would be without it. Ireland is not a colonial power in my eyes it is a privilege, if we were a colonial power it would be a right.

SWL · 27-04-2009 2:08pm

Serenity Now! wrote: »

[/color]
Yes maybe there is, in their eyes but the quote below is equally as ill-informed (not to mention OTT in melodrama). It is a right to anyone who qualifies for it. Plain and simple. Colonialism has eff all to do with this.

In my eyes it’s a privilege, if there wasn't an advantage in having it, individuals won't apply for an Irish passport.

Are you seriously suggesting that members of the GNIB are actively delaying applications for citizenship, It sounds like there are doing their job, making sure that all criteria are meet and double checking individuals for criminal and other actives, nothing wrong with that standard practice in most western countries.

RedPlanet · 27-04-2009 2:50pm

I believe the EU, to which Ireland is a member, has voiced criticism of this country for it's delaying in processing applications for citizenship.

Pull the finger out!

Serenity Now! · 27-04-2009 2:53pm

SWL wrote: »

In my eyes it’s a privilege, if there wasn't an advantage in having it, individuals won't apply for an Irish passport

...according to that individual's rights :rolleyes:
The privileges are what follows that person's successful application for citizenship.

SWL wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that members of the GNIB are actively delaying applications for citizenship, It sounds like there are doing their job, making sure that all criteria are meet and double checking individuals for criminal and other actives, nothing wrong with that standard practice in most western countries.

Oh ffs. When did I say that???
They are woefully slow at this standard practice of yours and no, "most western countries" are not like this.

walrusgumble · 28-04-2009 12:06am

Vica wrote: »

I think it is time to improve the GNIB immigration office service as the application processing time exceeding 3 years for Naturalisation and LTR is not to be tolerated and humiliates the rights of legally employed immigrants (compared to UK where Naturalisation is guaranteed and takes 3 months only).

Rather than approaching the minister personally, I would suggest to approach through the HR of large/mid-size companies so that they could contact the ministry and formulate that this is extra burden for companies to maintain workpermits, associated budgetary costs, and difficulties in recruiting and retaining employees as they leave to work in another countries when realise those difficulties. Large companies are very concerned when it comes to the process of employing non-EU people.

If we were to make this mock-up letter here, what would be the best format for it? Any legal / HR experts in here?

naturalisation in the uk is "guaranteed" after a specific period of time?are you sure about that? what about those convicted of crimes? mohammed al fayed was refused citizenship

the gnib have NO say in the deciding of applications. this is the sole responsibility of the department of justice. these two bodies have seperate functions in the imigration process.

i agree with you that there its time to improve the situation eg move civil servants from certain departments where they are too many train them up in the inis.

walrusgumble · 28-04-2009 12:10am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Regardless of your view of a country, if you fulfill the criteria to qualify for citizenship it is your RIGHT to claim it.

sir, you have a right to make an application.

you also have a right to a expidient and fair decision in interest of fair and natural justice,

however, under no circumstances does one have a right to citizenship or to claim it as there is no automatic right to citizenship.

please refer to the actual legislation which makes clear, that it is the minister and only the minister (for justice) who decides who is to be granted citizenship

walrusgumble · 28-04-2009 12:18am

sovtek wrote: »

The waiting times for LTR and citizenship are the largest obstacles to integration for immigrants. Why would I respect a population and want to integrate whose government treats me like a slave to a work permit. An EU directive states that it must take no more than six months to process naturalisation once the requisit timeframe has elapsed. Unfortunately the UK and Ireland are exempt from this directive. One wonders why.

please actualy state the said directive.

i have a feeling that you may be referring to directive 2004 / 38 EC (freemovement of person) where it provides that all applications are to be considered within 6 months. if you then it would not apply in ireland as citizenship application does not effect an non eu or eu citizens rights to residency.

the eu has no competence whatsoever in areas of member states laws on citizenship. morevoer, regardless of what directive it is you are referring to, it is completely irrelevant

the reality is that the civil servants in the department of justice for whatever reason are completely stretched with not only applications for citizenship, but also applications for long term residency, asylum, leave to remain and subsidiary applications etc

walrusgumble · 28-04-2009 12:27am

fattypatty wrote: »

hi fellas,

listen, does any1 knows what does "good character" means when it comes to naturalization ... (as it states in the conditions that you have to be off good character)... i know that u should not have committed a crime and never had claimed social welfare...but does penalty points on your driving license considered to be of a bad character and in turns disqualify you from naturalization?

so long as there was no court appearance or courts summons you should be fine .

walrusgumble · 28-04-2009 12:29am

sovtek wrote: »

I think typically anything under the Road Traffic Act is not considered against you. At the end of the day they can do anything they want though.

not neccessarily true. drink driving, dangerous/reckless driving may not help.

some minor offences under rta may be reviewable in court, should it ever go that far.

tickets are ok, but dont make a habit of it, sure even judges manage to get points

Serenity Now! · 28-04-2009 8:33am

walrusgumble wrote: »

sir, you have a right to make an application.

you also have a right to a expidient and fair decision in interest of fair and natural justice,

however, under no circumstances does one have a right to citizenship or to claim it as there is no automatic right to citizenship.

please refer to the actual legislation which makes clear, that it is the minister and only the minister (for justice) who decides who is to be granted citizenship

*sigh*
If you believe that a single Minister sits there sifting through the entire and signing a backlog of passport applications then so be it.
Back in the real world, try reading what I posted. If you fulfil criteria, it is your right to claim (apply/call-it-what-you-bloody-well-pedantically-will).

SWL · 28-04-2009 8:51am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

*sigh*
If you believe that a single Minister sits there sifting through the entire and signing a backlog of passport applications then so be it.
Back in the real world, try reading what I posted. If you fulfil criteria, it is your right to claim (apply/call-it-what-you-bloody-well-pedantically-will).

@walrusgumble is correct, either way it should be vied by the applicant as a privilege, the highest imho you can receive from a country. We have enough citizens in this country who don't appreciate what they have got - we don't need to add to that list.

walrusgumble · 28-04-2009 9:17am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

*sigh*
If you believe that a single Minister sits there sifting through the entire and signing a backlog of passport applications then so be it.
Back in the real world, try reading what I posted. If you fulfil criteria, it is your right to claim (apply/call-it-what-you-bloody-well-pedantically-will).

Back to the real word!!! i tell you what shame, its you that needs to get back to the real world and go to specs savers or alternatively learn to read english.

First port of call, read the irish naturalisation and citizenship act 1954-2004, the Minister has sole responsibilty in this matter.

One of the reasons why there is very little case law in this area between the UK and Ireland is that the courts do not really have jurisdiction over this area as its pretty much to the comptence of the Minister for Justice. ANd i know for a fact, that many cases that do reach the High Court are settled out of court as the state do not wish to set precedent or open up a can of worms were people have being refused for minor offences.

We are not being or at least not trying to be pedantic but there is a bit of a difference between priviledge and a right in legal terms.

I never said the minister himself sits down and goes through all the applications. if you actually read my last couple of posts referring to transferring civil servants over to the department and in particular INIS. But sure, you wouldn't want little details get in the way would we.

Its you that needs to cop on as if you have some god given right to citizenship. Granted, sir, i do feel for you, but you do have an avenue - High Court proceedings for mandamus order / injunction compelling the minister to make a decision due to unreasonable delay

Serenity Now! · 28-04-2009 7:10pm

walrusgumble wrote: »

I never said the minister himself sits down and goes through all the applications. if you actually read my last couple of posts referring to transferring civil servants over to the department and in particular INIS. But sure, you wouldn't want little details get in the way would we

Hmmm..."it is the minister and only the minister (for justice) who decides who is to be granted citizenship"

Hardly the same as having last say if need be :rolleyes:
If you fulfil the relevant criteria, you have a right to go for citizenship. It really is that simple, y'know.

SWL · 29-04-2009 10:43am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Hmmm..."it is the minister and only the minister (for justice) who decides who is to be granted citizenship"

Hardly the same as having last say if need be :rolleyes:
If you fulfil the relevant criteria, you have a right to go for citizenship. It really is that simple, y'know.

You have a right to go for citizenship - you dont have a right ot have it granted

maninasia · 29-04-2009 12:02pm

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Regardless of your view of a country, if you fulfill the criteria to qualify for citizenship it is your RIGHT to claim it.

+1We don't need to know the views of applicants for citizenship, unless you want to live in a facist state. We just need to know do they qualify or not according to their criteria.I'm an Irishman resident in another country, married to a foreign citizen and it saddens me to see the way applications for citizenship are being delayed, perhaps deliberately. If the government had only put in a proper system like Canada, Australia etc. it could have avoided this type of mess years ago and would have no excuse for the sorry state of current imigration policy and almost every other policy they have instigated since 2002 or so.

SWL · 29-04-2009 12:28pm

maninasia wrote: »

+1We don't need to know the views of applicants for citizenship, unless you want to live in a facist state. We just need to know do they qualify or not according to their criteria.I'm an Irishman resident in another country, married to a foreign citizen and it saddens me to see the way applications for citizenship are being delayed, perhaps deliberately. If the government had only put in a proper system like Canada, Australia etc. it could have avoided this type of mess years ago and would have no excuse for the sorry state of current imigration policy and almost every other policy they have instigated since 2002 or so.

When anybody like myself debates with the multicultural brigade that a green card system should be in place they are branded racists.
So no wonder no politician wants to touch that one

Basising your opinion on the GNIB that they are purposely delaying the applicant for individuals is a very serious statement, and a basis one, particularity when you are hearing the side of the applicant – but then no point in letting little details like facts and checks being carried out to get in the way

walrusgumble · 29-04-2009 1:58pm

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Hmmm..."it is the minister and only the minister (for justice) who decides who is to be granted citizenship"

Hardly the same as having last say if need be :rolleyes:
If you fulfil the relevant criteria, you have a right to go for citizenship. It really is that simple, y'know.

the civil servants you actually physically do the research are acting as the Minister's officals, agents if you will. they have the power to look at the applications on his behalf, then report to their supervisors who in turn go to the secretary who in turn bring matter to the minister himself, , pretty much how the departments run. but sure, i suppose with your attitude, this should all be stated in section 2 dealing with definitions then?

but you are correct on last bit " you hav a right to go for citizenship". but that is all! you also, again i am repeating myself here, a right to have a speedy and fair decision. but you dont have an absolute right that the minister must give you citizenship. However, lets get real here, the reality is, where one complies with all requirements - thus giving little reason of refusal, then that person will get citizenship, and fair play to them

its just, from the tone of a few people here, it appears they are under an assumption that they have a god given right to citizenship. when people say is a privilege etc (in fairness, i find that as an arrogant response from politicans when dealing with the complaints of lengthy delays - why? people are complaining about a argue complaint - they are being unfairly delayed) they mean that the minister might refuse somone. what you are saying is yes, you know that but in reality those who met critieria will / should get it.

Margo · 30-04-2009 10:46am

Novanta wrote: »

- for a more practical understanding of the processing time, its variability depending on specific cases, and evolution in time, could those who have recently got news and instructions to complete the final stage of the process let us know when they had applied, and when they reached the final stage ?

Check out http://www.editgrid.com/user/scrudu/citizenship_apps . It currently has details of 86 people who have applied for Irish citizenship, some of whom have been granted already. Feel free to add your details to the tracker.

Sovtek: This is the court case you are looking for:

http://www.courts.ie/80256F2B00356A6B/0/BEE3352AFBAF56E18025739900319AE2?Open&Highlight=0,Mandamus,~language_en~
K M AND D G - v- THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE, EQUALITY AND LAW REFORM, IRELAND AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
Date of Delivery: 17/07/2007

The non-EU citizen (male, country not mentioned) entered Ireland on foot of a Student Visa valid until Sept 2005. This was then extended until end of June 2006. He did not leave the country, but then married his Irish wife in July 2006. In Sept 2006 he applied to the DoJ for permission to remain in the state on the basis of his marriage to an Irish citizen. This letter was acknowledged by letter in Oct 2006 which stated that it would take 12-14 months to process the application, and that he had no rights to work during this time.

The non-EU citizen and his solicitor sent a number of letters to the DoJ requesting that the case be expedited as it was causing undue hardship as the applicant was not permitted to work. The DoJ wrote in Jan 2007 saying that applications were taking 11 months to be processed. On the 26th of March 2007 the applicant was successful in applying to the High Court for the following:

"an order of mandamus, ordering the DoJ to determine the applicants permission to remain in the State within 21 days",
"an interim injuction ordering the DoJ to determine the applicants permission to remain in the State within 21 days",
" a declaration that the applicants are entitled to have the DoJ determine the applicants permission to remain in the State promptly, but within at least 6 months of date of application"
"damages for breach of constitutional rights and/or breach of EU Convention of Human Rights and Fundamental freedom"
"Costs of the application"

The High Court further stated that Quote:

"A person in the position of the first named applicant (non-EU male) who is married to an non Irish citizen of a European Union Member State is entitled under European Law to have an application for permission to remain in the State determined by the first named respondent (DoJ) within six months. The failure by the first named respondent (DoJ) to determine applications in respect of Irish citizens as quickly as those in respect of non Irish citizens of EU member states is irrational, disproportionate and ultra vires. Because the first named applicant is not entitled to work until a positive decision is made on his application the second named applicant is obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of her duties in the home. That state of affairs is in contravention of Article 41 of the Constitution of Ireland and of Articles 8 and 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, so say the applicants. "

I couldn't find a link to the Court Decision from March, but the link above to the case which was decided upon by Judge Edwards in July, seems to accept that a period of 11 months to decide upon the applicants right to reside, finalising by saying Quote:

"As I have not found that the first named respondent has been guilty of unreasonable and unconscionable delay to date, and as a decision is imminent and is likely to be given within the bounds of what is reasonable, it is not necessary for me to consider the separation of powers issue or indeed the question as to whether or not mandamus would have been an appropriate remedy in this case. For the reasons outlined I will dismiss the application. I will hear arguments with respect to costs. "

Margo · 30-04-2009 1:33pm

SWL wrote: »

Citizenship you will find is highly though of by the Irish population, and rightly so, checks should be carried out until the State (the individuals elected by the Irish citizens to administer policy in Ireland interest) are satisfied, your posts are full of the victim mentality, I think you are more interested in getting the passport rather than interest in integration or love of Ireland or respect for the Irish population.

The process might take time due to checks, and I as a citizen have no problem with that, Irish passports should not be handed out like confetti. It is a privilege and not a right. While you don't agree with Mr Lenihan clearly based on a basis view he is an elected official to the Dail with responsibility to look and the wider implications of citizenship and that is what he is doing.

SWL, I don't think anyone denies that an application for citizenship is a serious thing, and should be handled with appropriate vigilence by the Authorities. Nor have I seen anyone else here deny that the Dept of Justice should do proper checks before granting Citizenship. The issue that most posters here are pointing out (and that I agree with), is that it takes an inordinate amount of time for the Dept of Justice to carry out these checks, and the time taken does not seem commensurate with the checks undertaken:

The checks that the DoJ undertake include the following:

Checks regarding length and periods of residency. These details are sent in as evidence by the applicant in their Passports. The DoJ also have computer records of all Visas granted and periods of stays
Financial checks. Applicant has to send in EOY Financial Records (P60, P45, P21 etc.) for each year. This information is also available from the Dept of Social Welfare. If you request this information individually it takes less than a week to have it supplied to you. No idea how long this is taking the DoJ.
Character (Security) Checks: This involves checking with the Garda Siochana that the person has not been involved in any crime during their period of residency. This takes 1-2 weeks if one applies individually, but it is taking the DoJ 3-8 months

Even given that Public Sector departments are notoriosly slow, it should not take 2-4 years for the Dept of Justice to carry out these checks. All of this information is held on computer systems and one would hope that they are somehow linked (e.g. that if the Gardai know that an immigrant has committed a crime, that they can check with the DoJ how this person entered the country and Visa details) or at least that officials from each sector can contact the other dept to get information in an acceptable amount of time.

I am very concerned about the delays in processing of Citizenship applications, as unnecessary delays and an unclear and confusing system can only lead to a frustrating and insecure experience for the new citizen. If someone has already fulfilled the requirements for citizenship (i.e. required period of residency, sufficient financial means, no criminal history etc.), then there is no reason to treat them with such disregard. I am firmly of the opinion after reading and speaking to hundreds of applicants, that the DoJ is sitting on the applicatons for a lengthy period of time (usually 2 years), and then finally opening the applicaton to begin processing it and doing the necessary checks. This period usually takes somewhere between 1-2 years. Completely random, and completely at odds with what the previous Minister (Lenihan) and current Minister say "applications are processed in a strict chronological order". This is very clear to see when you look at http://www.editgrid.com/user/scrudu/citizenship_apps

The Corinthian · 30-04-2009 2:11pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Does naturalisation give an EU citizen more rights in Ireland than they already have. It seems like a lot of hassle for little gain.

You can get voting cards you never bother using and bitch about how you never voted for Fianna Fail and the government we have is someone else's fault...

TBH, my father is a retired civil servant who worked in Ireland for thirty odd years, and I recently asked him why he never applied for Irish citizenship.

He scoffed; "me ne frega".

maninasia · 30-04-2009 5:22pm

SWL wrote: »

When anybody like myself debates with the multicultural brigade that a green card system should be in place they are branded racists.
So no wonder no politician wants to touch that one

Basising your opinion on the GNIB that they are purposely delaying the applicant for individuals is a very serious statement, and a basis one, particularity when you are hearing the side of the applicant – but then no point in letting little details like facts and checks being carried out to get in the way

I'll not pretend to be an expert but it does look like a deliberate delay...the checks required would not even take 6 months let alone 2 years...I need to see the average processing time to make a firm conclusion.

ionix5891 · 30-04-2009 5:37pm

maninasia wrote: »

I'll not pretend to be an expert but it does look like a deliberate delay...the checks required would not even take 6 months let alone 2 years...I need to see the average processing time to make a firm conclusion.

the average processing time for naturalization is over 3 years now

heres an interesting stories from people i worked with about their experiences with Irish naturalization

one came in '94 applied in early naughties and got it in under 2 years

another came in '96, applied in '06 (thats 10 years in the state continuously living and working and paying taxes from about the time when people were still leaving the state), still waiting last i checked this person has excellent English with native accent, goes out on town like us irish, pays taxes, is of good character and is educated up to masters level . how can it take over 3 years to make a decision on that case and run background checks?

one has to wonder as in the uk the process is a couple of months ....

.

Irish Naturalisation : processing time and final stage

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