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Irish Rail Fixed Penalty Notice, Rail Safety Act 2005

1356

Comments

  • #62
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    What happens if a passenger has committed more than one offence?

    Where a passenger has committed more than one offence, the Fixed Payment Notice will reflect an increased fine.


    Just took that from their website.

    Could I argue that because I paid my FPN and was quoted €108.10 when paying that that's it? That's all I was quoted even AFTER the letter had been sent out to me requesting 86 trips as well and they quoted the same number I called and paid on?


  • #63
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #64
    Indricotherium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    Laura4193 wrote: »
    What happens if a passenger has committed more than one offence?

    Where a passenger has committed more than one offence, the Fixed Payment Notice will reflect an increased fine.


    Just took that from their website.

    Could I argue that because I paid my FPN and was quoted €108.10 when paying that that's it? That's all I was quoted even AFTER the letter had been sent out to me requesting 86 trips as well and they quoted the same number I called and paid on?

    I think IR will be seeing this as two separate projects.

    1) €108 fine

    2) recover monies owed for 86 journeys


  • #65
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #66
    Indricotherium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    So it's balance of probabilities then on the 86 trips all starting in Kilcock?


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  • #67
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    ***Rabbit hole alert.*** :D

    I'm not answering that question because we could be here for days.

    But short of a Supreme Court appeal on a point of law, can we get to the bottom of whether the bylaws say they can get paid on the double as they seem to think?


  • #68
    Indricotherium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    ***Rabbit hole alert.*** :D

    I'm not answering that question because we could be here for days.

    But short of a Supreme Court appeal on a point of law, can we get to the bottom of whether the bylaws say they can get paid on the double as they seem to think?

    Where are they looking to be paid on the double?

    A ticket is only valid for the journey it covers.

    The ticket the OP bought covers a journey that partially overlaps the one she took, but in no way is IR expecting to be paid on the double.

    Look at it another way, if the OP had bought a Maynooth - Tara ticket, and had then proceeded to comute from Greystones to Drumcondra would you feel IR were looking to be paid on the double because the ticket paid for overlapped the journey taken?


  • #69
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    Indricotherium wrote: »
    Where are they looking to be paid on the double?

    A ticket is only valid for the journey it covers.

    The ticket the OP bought covers a journey that partially overlaps the one she took, but in no way is IR expecting to be paid on the double.

    Look at it another way, if the OP had bought a Maynooth - Tara ticket, and had then proceeded to comute from Greystones to Drumcondra would you feel IR were looking to be paid on the double because the ticket paid for overlapped the journey taken?

    That's not the same.

    I had a ticket covering me from Maynooth and Tara and Kilcock is one more stop so technically I was getting a free trip from Kilcock to Maynooth but Maynooth onwards was paid for every single month.

    Your example above shows two completely different routes.
    Mine was the same route just one stop out.


  • #70
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #71
    Indricotherium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    Laura4193 wrote: »
    That's not the same.

    I had a ticket covering me from Maynooth and Tara and Kilcock is one more stop so technically I was getting a free trip from Kilcock to Maynooth but Maynooth onwards was paid for every single month.

    Your example above shows two completely different routes.
    Mine was the same route just one stop out.

    You need to stop thinking in terms of one extra stop.

    You bought the ticket on the basis of it covering one journey, and you made another journey.

    That these two overlap doesn't enter into it.


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  • #72
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    Indricotherium wrote: »
    You need to stop thinking in terms of one extra stop.

    You bought the ticket on the basis of it covering one journey, and you made another journey.

    That these two overlap doesn't enter into it.

    Okay but I can't be the only that thinks it's madness?
    For instance if I had no ticket whatsoever every day I'd be liable for the full amount too.

    Doesn't seem particularly fair that I had a ticket that wasn't cheap and it's just disregarded.

    In fact if I never even handed a ticket over IR would not be able to try chase me for any previous "offences".

    Seems completely backwards.


  • #73
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    These conceptual acrobatics are all very well but the OP (or her employer) has paid x amount for the trips. IR are claiming that they should have been paid y amount.

    They are now requesting the full payment of y having already been paid x, so if y is paid, IR will have been paid x + y.

    In reality, they should only be paid once for the fares due, y. They have already penalised for incorrect payment by issuing the fine. That means that in order for them to be paid up in full for the trips, the amount they should be paid is y - x.


  • #74
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #75
    flexcon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭flexcon


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    These conceptual acrobatics are all very well but the OP (or her employer) has paid x amount for the trips. IR are claiming that they should have been paid y amount.

    They are now requesting the full payment of y having already been paid x, so if y is paid, IR will have been paid x + y.

    In reality, they should only be paid once for the fares due, y. They have already penalised for incorrect payment by issuing the fine. That means that in order for them to be paid up in full for the trips, the amount they should be paid is y - x.

    This. It's the only fair method I can see of calculating this. And in all honesty, Laura has a point.

    She is being done for the full amount of unpaid for the ENTIRE journey, yet she actually paid for 90% of the journey. It's one stop. Plus, it's the same train! That is another point to consider, it really is a case of going one more stop than you paid for.

    You get fined, and you owe the amount you should have paid. In this instance, the math is,

    Take the total amount of the trips made from the furthest station, minus the already paid for card from the Maynooth station, plus the fine and you have your total.

    Laura, how much is a ticket from the extra stop to the Maynooth stop?


  • #76
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    flexcon wrote: »
    This. It's the only fair method I can see of calculating this. And in all honesty, Laura has a point.

    She is being done for the full amount of unpaid for the ENTIRE journey, yet she actually paid for 90% of the journey. It's one stop. Plus, it's the same train! That is another point to consider, it really is a case of going one more stop than you paid for.

    You get fined, and you owe the amount you should have paid. In this instance, the math is,

    Take the total amount of the trips made from the furthest station, minus the already paid for card from the Maynooth station, plus the fine and you have your total.

    Laura, how much is a ticket from the extra stop to the Maynooth stop?

    €5.95 from Maynooth to Kilcock and Vice Versa


  • #77
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    I wonder could I even argue that my card cost x per month and the kilcock season card + Dublin bus add on cost y per month and I owe them the difference?


  • #78
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #79
    flexcon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭flexcon


    Laura4193 wrote: »
    I wonder could I even argue that my card cost x per month and the kilcock season card + Dublin bus add on cost y per month and I owe them the difference?

    So in your opinion what is the cost difference of the card you have, with the card you should have?

    ( not familiar with this rail system card as I don't use one )


  • #80
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    Also how much is a Maynooth-Dublin single?

    Only €4.60


  • #81
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    flexcon wrote: »
    So in your opinion what is the cost difference of the card you have, with the card you should have?

    ( not familiar with this rail system card as I don't use one )

    It would work out about €30-€40 a month I think.

    I'd have to get taxsaver to quote me for the additional Dublin bus element but going from a Short hop rail only ticket at €152 to a Kilcock rail season ticket at €176 there's not a huge difference.

    The ticket in particular that I had was bus and rail short hop at €180.


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  • #82
    flexcon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,618 ✭✭✭flexcon


    So to get this straight.

    Kilcock to Dublin one way is €10.55 ( Kilkock to Maynooth is €5.95 and Maynooth to Dublin is €4.60)

    Kilcock to MAynooth is only 16min journey
    Maynooth to Dublin is a 41 min journey.

    holy balls, that is insane if correct.


  • #83
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #84
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    I reckon you owe €8.90-€4.60 for each journey. So 86 x €4.30 which is €369.80.

    Do you mean €8.10 instead of €8.90 for the standard Kilcock to Dublin fare?


  • #85
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #86
    Laura4193
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭Laura4193


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    €326.80 in that case then.

    I'll have to try argue that then and hopefully it works.

    For civil cases then, there's no way for me to come out worse than what they're asking from me at the moment is there?

    Like the judge won't decide that if they're in favour of IR they'll throw on a fine or additional payment somehow


  • #87
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    flexcon wrote: »
    So to get this straight.

    Kilcock to Dublin one way is €10.55 ( Kilkock to Maynooth is €5.95 and Maynooth to Dublin is €4.60)

    Kilcock to MAynooth is only 16min journey
    Maynooth to Dublin is a 41 min journey.

    holy balls, that is insane if correct.

    There is a higher level of subsidy for fares within the Dublin Short Hop Zone, the boundaries of which are Balbriggan, Maynooth, Sallins and Kilcoole.

    Outside of that area fares are higher due to a lower subsidy level as Intercity fares apply.

    It sucks for people outside the Dublin Short Hop Zone, but there has to be a boundary somewhere.


  • #88
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #89
    Indricotherium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    No, you won't come out any worse off. The Judge can't impose an extra penalty in a civil case.

    Could the judge award costs against?


  • #90
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #91
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    To answer hullaballoo's question - yes the bye laws allow CIE to charge the full cost of the portion of the journey which had no ticket.
    The Board shall be entitled to recover the full fare for the distance actually travelled by the offender without a ticket or other authority.


This discussion has been closed.
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