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The hub controller

1356

Comments

  • #62
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,714 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    it seems to be aimed at people who have no heating controls other than on/off and no zones. So it's literally just "better than nothing", but it is free, and anything more complicated would not be.


  • #63
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    loyatemu wrote: »
    it seems to be aimed at people who have no heating controls other than on/off and no zones. So it's literally just "better than nothing", but it is free, and anything more complicated would not be.

    Well that would be me, single zone, no hot water zone, simple on/off. Yet my Netatmo allows for fine grained temperature control. I feel it is one of the most important benefits of smart thermostats.

    A traditional setup was a separate timeclock and a thermostat, that worked together to give you some control, but could only do one temperature.

    Later digital programmers, added more fine grained control of different temps at different times.

    This seems to be a step back to the old ways of doing things. Which is strange, since there is no technical reason why it couldn't be done, even for a simple single zone setup. It is just a software feature afterall.


  • #64
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭deezell


    I think its worth repeating some of my post on this in March 2018 , Home heating Automation Thread.

    ........ It's €249 to buy and self install which puts it right up there price wise, yet there's no mention of HW control, no Opentherm for advanced boilers, no Alexa, Google home , Apple homekit or IFTTT integration. It's a simple device at an advanced price.
    It doesn't need a bridge to connect to the router, meaning it uses standard Wi-Fi. Battery powered stats normally use a very lo power radio link to their router hub/ bridge in order to get reasonable life. Nest uses normal WiFi and requires either a small phone style charger or power down the wires from it's heatlink box. This stat uses a battery, but it's rechargeable. How does it stay charged? My guess is it siphons power from the open circuit voltage of the heating relay. When the boiler is off, in a 2 wire system there will be 220v ( or possibly 24v dc) across the contacts. This can be used to power a charging circuit. When the contacts are closed it goes to battery power. As closed contacts means the boiler is firing, this period will only be in short bursts, battery charging resuming when the contacts open. Very clever......

    Its a useful but very simple electronic thermostat, with internet access, but it hardly qualifies as smart, and if it is been offered 'free', it's only because the suppliers are availing of the very substantial grant which is available, and which they must be collecting as they are taking your MPRN. The problem I have with this is that it is a single thermostat substitution, I don't see how it qualifies for the zoning requirements of the grant, it only really (barely) meets the automation part. Its been a while since I studied the grant requirements, but I was under the impression that the upgrade required control of at least two zones, one of which could be HW.
    If you use up your MPRN you can't subsequently get a real smart heating upgrade, as your grant money is gone. So if you decide you'd like a smart and zoned system, say the Drayton Kit3 3 zone two stat+hw system which retails less than the Hub controller, then you wont be able to defray the slighty higher installation costs and possibibly some plumbing costs as your grant dough is gone.


  • #65
    jmBuildExt
    Registered Users Posts: 692 ✭✭✭jmBuildExt


    Its not part of the regular seai home owner grants for improving efficiency. Otherwise, as you say single zones wouldn't qualify. Also the homeowner would have to be part of the application to seai, even if the company were claiming it on their side... The company have said this themselves.

    But....They are being funded by seai according to what people have said in prev posts. Obviously somebody has to be paying for it... It sounds very much like they are carrying out research/gathreing data on single zone systems (or as mentioned, homes with 2 zones operating as one).


  • #66
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    deezell wrote: »
    if it is been offered 'free', it's only because the suppliers are availing of the very substantial grant which is available, and which they must be collecting as they are taking your MPRN.

    Have you any reference for this?
    There was no mention of anything like that when they were installing it and I can see nothing in the terms and conditions that would indicate that.
    Will try upload copy of the t&c I signed on installation later.

    Edit: hadn't seen jmBuildExt reply before posting this


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  • #67
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭deezell


    I'd like to be wrong about this. The 'free' stats offered by the power utilities also are part of some deal with SEAI. I presumed it used up your grant, but I don't know if subscribers have to fill in an official seal grant form or if the electricity providers cover all that on their behalf. With non grant aided quotes for say a NEST install running to a grand, there must be some grant money added to this. The utilities wouldn't pony out that kind of money just to get your business for a year or two.


  • #68
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Unfortunately the link to the PDF on the SEAI site is broken!

    AFAIR, the last time I looked at it, the grant was up to €700, but it included different levels. It included different levels of grant for different system types and €700 being for a full multizone system, but lower amounts for a simple single zone "smart" system like this.

    Makes sense, as not every home needs multizone, (e.g. an apartment) and not every home needs hot water control (e.g. combi boilers separately control hot water, electric immersion, solar water, etc).

    That is how the Energia offer a free Netatmo thermostat, despite being single zoned and no hotwater control:
    https://www.energia.ie/cosy-homes/netatmo-offers
    Your system must be a single zone system that is capable of being upgraded to a system that qualifies as Entry Level Heating Controls with Remote Access according to SEAI’s Code of Practice and Standards and Specifications Guidelines.

    I'd assume this Hub Controller falls under the same grant. It is clear from the Hub website that they are using the same grant since they ask these questions:
    Was your house built before 2007?
    Have you ever received a free smart thermostat from your energy provider?

    The above questions being requirements for the SEAI heating controls grant.


  • #69
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭deezell


    bk wrote: »
    Unfortunately the link to the PDF on the SEAI site is broken!

    AFAIR, the last time I looked at it, the grant was up to €700, but it included different levels. It included different levels of grant for different system types and €700 being for a full multizone system, but lower amounts for a simple single zone "smart" system like this.

    Makes sense, as not every home needs multizone, (e.g. an apartment) and not every home needs hot water control (e.g. combi boilers separately control hot water, electric immersion, solar water, etc).

    That is how the Energia offer a free Netatmo thermostat, despite being single zoned and no hotwater control:
    https://www.energia.ie/cosy-homes/netatmo-offers



    I'd assume this Hub Controller falls under the same grant. It is clear from the Hub website that they are using the same grant since they ask these questions:
    Was your house built before 2007?
    Have you ever received a free smart thermostat from your energy provider?

    The above questions being requirements for the SEAI heating controls grant.
    Bottom line, it's not worth the grant money or the €299 being asked for it here say,

    https://www.build4less.ie/the-hub-controller.html
    Drayton Wiser Kit 1 stat is half the price and full of smart features.
    Tado v3 is €199, fully smart featured.Tado is the same simple install, 2 wires swap. Get an installer to pop it in and sign the grant form, should work out free, but goid luck with that.
    Seai link btw is missing the .pdf at the end iirc, so copy and paste it, then add the missing bit before hitting return.


  • #70
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It is a pity that Drayton, Tado, etc. don't take advantage of the grant like the Hub Controller have.

    Nest, Netatmo and Hive are all indirectly available for free or at reduced cost via various Gas companies.


  • #71
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,233 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    deezell wrote: »
    I'd like to be wrong about this. The 'free' stats offered by the power utilities also are part of some deal with SEAI. I presumed it used up your grant, but I don't know if subscribers have to fill in an official seal grant form or if the electricity providers cover all that on their behalf. With non grant aided quotes for say a NEST install running to a grand, there must be some grant money added to this. The utilities wouldn't pony out that kind of money just to get your business for a year or two.

    They claim your savings as mandated by Europe.
    https://ec.europa.eu/energy/en/topics/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-directive/obligation-schemes-and-alternative-measures

    https://www.seai.ie/energy-in-business/energy-efficiency-obligation-scheme/


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  • #72
    DamX
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭DamX


    I have the HUB Controller and i have to say its been pretty amazing so far, i have noticed the savings so far.. I was talking to one of the guys in their office and they explained to me that their controller saves you money while you use your heating, so its different to any other smart thermostat thats out there, other smart thermostat companies cant claim the same grant because they don't reduce your energy waste like this one does. Its not the 700 euro grant that they claim either, the grant they claim only covers the cost of their hub and install price which is 380 euro


  • #73
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,233 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    DamX wrote: »
    I have the HUB Controller and i have to say its been pretty amazing so far, i have noticed the savings so far.. I was talking to one of the guys in their office and they explained to me that their controller saves you money while you use your heating, so its different to any other smart thermostat thats out there, other smart thermostat companies cant claim the same grant because they don't reduce your energy waste like this one does. Its not the 700 euro grant that they claim either, the grant they claim only covers the cost of their hub and install price which is 380 euro

    Sounds like a load of sales talk. How is it different?

    Tell me more about this magician device that saves you money while heating.

    How long have you had it installed ? It’s summer, that’s what has saved you money.


  • #74
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭deezell


    "other smart thermostat companies cant claim the same grant because they don't reduce your energy waste like this one does"
    What a load of bull. Any thermostat that stops you heating the house to excessive temperatures, heating it when not required or heating it when you're not there will reduce your costs. There's no magic to it. Hub controller is one of the pooper examples of smart control. It's limited feature set has been well discussed. A statement like " it saves you money while you use your heating" is exactly the type of jingo garbage I'd expect to hear a salesman peddle to a gullible customer. It's like saying " you're losing weight while eating our diet chocolate bars". You save money by NOT heating. Turn the heat off altogether and you'll see. Now, try and turn it on only as long and as low as you can bear. That's your saving. Hub does it up to a point. The other smart stats do it so much better. Sorry to be so blunt about this, but enthusiasm is not a good basis to measure efficiency. You have a simple product which works for you. If you got it free, it's because we all paid taxes which are used to fund abstract statistical projections of savings by devices, which is then used by energy companies to claim back large sums of said taxes to cover the install cost. No one is measuring yours or any smart stat owners consumption. Many use more than they did, but have vastly more comfortable homes around the clock, instead of the bake freeze cycle of timer only control. If you have a foot in ice and a foot in the fire statistically you're comfortable, but it's not true. Burn less fuel, save money. That's the only fact thats real, not some fantasy superpower of an electronic switch.


  • #75
    DamX
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭DamX


    I dont know exactly how it works, it seems like you are all being personally offended by a thermostat which is rather sad! Don't make your own assumptions, find out yourselves, i have the product over 6 months and notice my oil is lasting longer, nothing to do with summer as the it hasnt been hot since february...! Its something to do with momentum in the system and the hub turns it on and off at times.. i am not sure though, just call them yourselves and im sure theyll explain it to you, there might be more advanced systems because you can control different zones, but this isnt for people with zones its for people who's heating and water run together, getting this device for free and its saving me around 30%(according to their website) - whats not to like?


  • #76
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭deezell


    "Its something to do with momentum in the system"
    Oh Dear.


  • #77
    chuck eastwood
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭chuck eastwood


    DamX wrote: »
    I dont know exactly how it works, it seems like you are all being personally offended by a thermostat which is rather sad! Don't make your own assumptions, find out yourselves, i have the product over 6 months and notice my oil is lasting longer, nothing to do with summer as the it hasnt been hot since february...! Its something to do with momentum in the system and the hub turns it on and off at times.. i am not sure though, just call them yourselves and im sure theyll explain it to you, there might be more advanced systems because you can control different zones, but this isnt for people with zones its for people who's heating and water run together, getting this device for free and its saving me around 30%(according to their website) - whats not to like?

    You seem to be offended by people giving you solid factual advice. As you stated yourself you don't really know how it works and most people here have engineering/plumbing/electrical or fluid dynamics backgrounds. Our aim is to provide answers and learn more about these products.
    As with any controller, it does not save you money. You save it yourself by using the device efficiently. The site states that no other controller has ad manyfeatures, the first of many kids. I was in touch with their sales team about three months ago asking if there was an option for my 3zone set up. 2 Rads + HW. They said yes, put it all into one zone...... now I'm no genius but if I want my kids bedroom heated why would I waste oil heating water and the downstairs zone. When I questioned this the sales person Adam swore i would save money this way. I'm sure many fall for it but the sales team were either following a script or purposely misleading me to fill their grant/sales quota.
    At the end of the day, right now it is an inferior product to almost every other system and the hub team are miss selling it.


  • #78
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,233 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    DamX wrote: »
    I dont know exactly how it works, it seems like you are all being personally offended by a thermostat which is rather sad! Don't make your own assumptions, find out yourselves, i have the product over 6 months and notice my oil is lasting longer, nothing to do with summer as the it hasnt been hot since february...! Its something to do with momentum in the system and the hub turns it on and off at times.. i am not sure though, just call them yourselves and im sure theyll explain it to you, there might be more advanced systems because you can control different zones, but this isnt for people with zones its for people who's heating and water run together, getting this device for free and its saving me around 30%(according to their website) - whats not to like?

    Not personally offended. Simply call out fake news fir what it is. How can you not say summer is not saving you money ?

    Attached is my usage this week, much different than that in January


  • #79
    chuck eastwood
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭chuck eastwood


    ted1 wrote: »
    Not personally offended. Simply call out fake news fir what it is. How can you not say summer is not saving you money ?

    Attached is my usage this week, much different than that in January

    Lad, that's August. We have had a fantastic summer. How can you honestly compare a summer month to what was a cold and wet Feb for heating usage. Seriously like


  • #80
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,233 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    chuck eastwood wrote: »
    Lad, that's August. We have had a fantastic summer. How can you honestly compare a summer month to what was a cold and wet Feb for heating usage. Seriously like

    That’s my point!!! The op said he is saving money, I told him it’s because it’s summer and he came back saying it’s cold since February.

    Hence I said much different than January


  • #81
    chuck eastwood
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭chuck eastwood


    ted1 wrote: »
    That’s my point!!! The op said he is saving money, I told him it’s because it’s summer and he came back saying it’s cold since February.

    Hence I said much different than January


    Gah, sorry I misread your comment. Spot on


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  • #82
    DamX
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭DamX


    Well this controller is doing something that no other one can, heres a great idea for you , ring them and ask how the thing works... problem solved, take your tin foil hats off


  • #83
    chuck eastwood
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭chuck eastwood


    DamX wrote: »
    Well this controller is doing something that no other one can, heres a great idea for you , ring them and ask how the thing works... problem solved, take your tin foil hats off

    I've already been in touch with them several times asking about specs and limitations etc.
    So in your opinion (factual please) what can it do that no other controller can do. Please give over with the childish insults. We are adults here, better things to be at


  • #84
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,233 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    DamX wrote: »
    Well this controller is doing something that no other one can, heres a great idea for you , ring them and ask how the thing works... problem solved, take your tin foil hats off

    And what is that..... that’s a pretty big claim that lacks substance.


  • #85
    DamX
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭DamX


    It recognises momentum built up in your system from the flow of water after around 10 minutes of your heating being on, it then turns the boiler off and the water continues to go through your pipes for about 2-3 minutes, so it turns your boiler on and off and keeps the heat going while its off, as well as giving you the control that other smart thermostats do. Its not designed for multi zone, its designed for people with old single zone systems who's water and heat run together like mine. i rang them up and asked as its bugging me now, they've proved already this year to be saving people upwards of 30% against other heat controllers, no other smart thermostat turns the boiler on and off like this one does, others just give you remote control, and might learn your preferred temperatures at certain times, so in some aspects other smart thermostats are more advanced than the HUB, but they don't save you money while you use the heating like the HUB does.. This is proven already according to the lad i was speaking to.


  • #86
    Dr4gul4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭Dr4gul4


    DamX wrote: »
    It recognises momentum built up in your system from the flow of water after around 10 minutes of your heating being on, it then turns the boiler off and the water continues to go through your pipes for about 2-3 minutes, so it turns your boiler on and off and keeps the heat going while its off, as well as giving you the control that other smart thermostats do. Its not designed for multi zone, its designed for people with old single zone systems who's water and heat run together like mine. i rang them up and asked as its bugging me now, they've proved already this year to be saving people upwards of 30% against other heat controllers, no other smart thermostat turns the boiler on and off like this one does, others just give you remote control, and might learn your preferred temperatures at certain times, so in some aspects other smart thermostats are more advanced than the HUB, but they don't save you money while you use the heating like the HUB does.. This is proven already according to the lad i was speaking to.

    Umm.

    Isnt that how all heating systems essentially work, Thermostat calls for heat,in this case it's the hub, activates the boiler and main pump, when the water returning to the boiler is within a few degrees of it's leaving temp it shuts off, but the main pump keeps running.


  • #87
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,233 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    DamX wrote: »
    It recognises momentum built up in your system from the flow of water after around 10 minutes of your heating being on, it then turns the boiler off and the water continues to go through your pipes for about 2-3 minutes, so it turns your boiler on and off and keeps the heat going while its off, as well as giving you the control that other smart thermostats do. Its not designed for multi zone, its designed for people with old single zone systems who's water and heat run together like mine. i rang them up and asked as its bugging me now, they've proved already this year to be saving people upwards of 30% against other heat controllers, no other smart thermostat turns the boiler on and off like this one does, others just give you remote control, and might learn your preferred temperatures at certain times, so in some aspects other smart thermostats are more advanced than the HUB, but they don't save you money while you use the heating like the HUB does.. This is proven already according to the lad i was speaking to.

    That’s pure sakes talk. And is similar to what products like the Nest does.

    Nest learns how long it takes to heat your house. So if you tell it you want it to be 20 degrees at 7:30, it Will have learnt that it takes 5 minutes per degree to heat so if it’s 15 degrees now it’ll turn in the heating at 7:05. So there sales staff are wrong.

    Circulation pumps keep the water circulating not the hub, what they are talking about is dead bands and it looks how long the system takes to respond. It’s nothing new or special

    How did they prove it saves 30% there’s no results online. Replacing and time clock with a smart one will save you money.


  • #88
    DamX
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭DamX


    Yeah but the HUB does this every 10-12 minutes, the guy on the phone said that every hour that you have the heating on, the HUB saves you 12 minutes worth of energy apparently, i'm just going by what he said to me, i'm not sure how they proved it but he said if i got 1000 litres of oil a year normally, and i would usually burn through 1000 in 12 months, with a HUB installed - if i use my heating at the same rate, i could potentially still have around 300 litres of oil left after the 12 months, where it would usually be gone, im no expert on this im just going by what the guy told me, i dont think he would have much reason to lie but maybe you guys a right, i mean if thats the goal for this company its a big plus in my book, especially if it didnt cost me anything, i had an issue with it a few months back and it was sorted within 2 days, their customer service is quite good from my experience


  • #89
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,233 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    The biggest saving from any of them is occupancy sensors Ann’s not heating empty houses


  • #90
    starbaby2003
    Registered Users Posts: 664 ✭✭✭starbaby2003


    Just for those of you, like us, who refused as it was single zone, we got offered a multi zone hub today. Same idea no cost to us etc etc


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  • #91
    deezell
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭deezell


    "It recognises momentum built up in your system from the flow of water after around 10 minutes of your heating being on...."

    So it has flow sensors plumbed into the pipes. No? Oh, maybe it has voice recognition, it hears you say, " I hear the WARM water gushing through the pipes". Maybe not. Maybe it can measure the temperature of the air in the vicinity of the stat. Yep, that would do it. From that you can deduce momentum, who's in the house, and the winner of the 5.40 at Punchestown.
    Multizone? Just get two of the mothers. Serves you right for getting one in the first place.


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