New York Bar Exams

Beeinmybonnet · 10-04-2009 12:11am #1

I've most of my FE1s passed and am working in-house in legal department of an airline. I love the aviation industry and have been thinking about doing the New York Bar exams - I know it means that all my work for FE1s is gone down drain, but not sure how easy it is to get a traineeship at the moment and not sure if I want to work in a firm anymore. Just wondering has anyone done them (whilst working full-time) and if so, just how difficult they actually are. Also, just how useful a qualification is it - would employers favour a candidate that has gone down traditional Blackhall route??

Tom Young · 10-04-2009 1:07am

Caution: Hard exams. Working for US airline - or EU one with US connections! Cool.

Have fun. Don't be too pessimistic!

Tom

Sheedy · 10-04-2009 4:30pm

I was wondering about the New York Bar exams too, I have applied to do a masters in September but i am being told that it's pretty useless career-wise. Would it be more useful to get these exams? Would passing them open many doors?

r14 · 10-04-2009 9:12pm

Sheedy wrote: »

I was wondering about the New York Bar exams too, I have applied to do a masters in September but i am being told that it's pretty useless career-wise. Would it be more useful to get these exams? Would passing them open many doors?

If you do the NY Bar you can then do the QLTT and then after about 6 mts you are a qualified solicitor. Sounds great but I know people who have done it and can't get a job because they have had no training in Irish law and are effectively useless in the Irish environment.

That said its great if you want to go to Europe or elsewhere as it will be recognised. If you want to practice in Ireland do it by all means but I'd say you still have to do FE1s and go through the pain of a training contract.

johnfás · 10-04-2009 9:17pm

How difficult are they and what would the total cost be? I might consider it as something to do before I start as a trainee and as an additional qualification, though I wouldn't use them as a route to avoid Blackhall.

dermot_sheehan · 10-04-2009 11:18pm

I did them during the February sittings so have no idea if I passed yet.

They are hard enough, especially since I didn't do any course for them but got the Bar Bri books (U.S. Company that specialises in cramming for bar exams) off one of my girlfriends friends who did it a few years ago.

The multiple choice section in particular is tricky and it is something most irish law graduates have not encountered before, there is a technique to learning what the examiner is looking for since the most obvious answer is quite often wrong.

The exam is over two days in either July or February. The exam fee is $250 look at The Board of Law examiners website for details on applying http://www.nybarexam.org/ *you have to send certified copies of your transcripts from your law school). The first days exam consists of 50 New York Law Multiple Choice questions, 6 essays on New York Law, and the Multi State Practical Test (where you have a problem question and are given the folio with statutes and precedents that govern, its designed to examine your legal analysis and argumentative skills). On the second day you have the Multi state bar exam where over two 3 hour sittings you have 200 multiple choice questions.

As well as the New York Bar exam to be qualified over there you must pass the Multi State Professional Responsibility Exam. This is taken at a different time then the bar exam (I did mine 10 days after the bar exam on march 7th), and can be taken in any state (I took mine in Washington DC). This examines your ethics and is more straightforward and easier to pass then the main bar exam.

Friary Law, Griffith and Independent Colleges all do preparatory courses for the New York Bar and have the details on their websites. They charge substantial enough fees. You could also source the Bar Bri books yourself and see how you manage with independent study. If you take that option the cost is $250 for the exam, $60 for the MPRE exam and whatever amount you spend on flights and accomodation. There exams are very difficult though(New York and Multistate law differs in many respects and you are examined on one one day and the other the next day).

Sheedy · 11-04-2009 1:11am

Yea I wouldn't be interested in using that route to avoid blackhall, seems a bit pointless really. As an extra qualification would it stand out more than an LLM on a cv for somebody wanting to practice in Ireland? or would it be another thing that an employer wouldn't care less about?
Good luck with your results Gabhain! lets know if you pass by studying alone, as the fees for Friary Law are around the 5K mark I think:rolleyes:

Beeinmybonnet · 12-04-2009 12:12am

Thanks for all the very helpful comments. Such a tough decision deciding what route to do down. Has anyone studied for these while working full-time, and if so, how difficult is this to do? I've been sitting the FE1s and working full-time and frankly found it very hard. Also, is the law hard to grasp, considering it's totally different to anything Irish law students would have covered before?

Sheedy · 14-04-2009 12:24pm

Beeinmybonnet wrote: »

Thanks for all the very helpful comments. Such a tough decision deciding what route to do down. Has anyone studied for these while working full-time, and if so, how difficult is this to do? I've been sitting the FE1s and working full-time and frankly found it very hard. Also, is the law hard to grasp, considering it's totally different to anything Irish law students would have covered before?

It seems to me like they're harder than the FE-1s to pass, but there's way more FE-1s to do so it might be less time consuming to study for somebody working full time. I don't really know though it's just from what i've read/heard.

r14 · 16-04-2009 4:02pm

Just came across this on rollonfriday. Might be helpful:

http://www.rollonfriday.com/forums/disc_topic.asp?topic_id=470478&forum_id=38&sort=&page=&Topic_Title=The++New+York+Bar&forum_title=TC+Discussion&M=False&S=True

(I have essays to write... what am I doing on rollonfriday???:o)

metrovelvet · 16-04-2009 5:17pm

Why would you do the NY bar exams for any other reason than to practise law in NY?

dermot_sheehan · 08-05-2009 12:32am

Sheedy wrote: »

Yea I wouldn't be interested in using that route to avoid blackhall, seems a bit pointless really. As an extra qualification would it stand out more than an LLM on a cv for somebody wanting to practice in Ireland? or would it be another thing that an employer wouldn't care less about?
Good luck with your results Gabhain! lets know if you pass by studying alone, as the fees for Friary Law are around the 5K mark I think:rolleyes:

Passed in case anyone was wondering.

Quite relieved, thought my trip to New York in February might be for nothing. I think it's a very doable exam if one is good at cramming. Go to New York 3 or 4 days before the exam and do nothing but cram in a hotel room. Get the Bar Bri books off ebay, dont bother with the course.

AKK · 08-05-2009 12:40am

gabhain7 wrote: »

Passed in case anyone was wondering.

Quite relieved, thought my trip to New York in February might be for nothing. I think it's a very doable exam if one is good at cramming. Go to New York 3 or 4 days before the exam and do nothing but cram in a hotel room. Get the Bar Bri books off ebay, dont bother with the course.

Congrats gabhain7 - impressive!

Just out of interest, could you give us a rough idea of how long in advance you started studying?

Do you think you'll end up practicing in NY?

Well done again.

partyguinness · 11-05-2009 3:14pm

gabhain7 wrote: »

Passed in case anyone was wondering.

Quite relieved, thought my trip to New York in February might be for nothing. I think it's a very doable exam if one is good at cramming. Go to New York 3 or 4 days before the exam and do nothing but cram in a hotel room. Get the Bar Bri books off ebay, dont bother with the course.

Just wondering what background have you come from. Did you go through Blackhall?

dermot_sheehan · 11-05-2009 4:33pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Just wondering what background have you come from. Did you go through Blackhall?

AKK wrote: »

Congrats gabhain7 - impressive!

Just out of interest, could you give us a rough idea of how long in advance you started studying?

Do you think you'll end up practicing in NY?

Well done again.

I got the books in November but didn't start cramming until after christmas. It's at the end of the day a test of memorising bits of New York law which although quite similar to irish law is different in some aspects.

The key I found was to do tons of sample multiple choice questions and you pick up what they look for on the exam.

I have no current plans to go to New York but its always useful to have the qualification.

For background, I have an undergrad law degree, a masters, the BL and am practicing at the bar.

direfairepenser · 24-06-2009 12:51pm

I was told that Bar Bri offer a service to international students whereby the materials are put on to an ipod for the student and posted out. I looked at the website but I wasn't able to see anything about that.
Buying BarBri materials on ebay was mentioned - how much did anyone who bought on ebay pay can they say?
(On another matter - can anyone recommend a good intensive course for French?)

Mayuki · 25-06-2009 2:57pm

Is there anyone who has taken the New York bar with just an LLB?

I have an LLB (Law and European Studies) from UL and would like to take the New York bar next year.

I've checked the Bar Examiners' criteria for applicants with a foreign legal education but I'm a bit perplexed by what I see.

This is straight from the "Request for Evaluation of Foreign Academic Credentials" which is available on the website of the Bar Examiners:

"If you are NOT admitted to practice law in the foreign country have you successfully completed the educational requirements for admission to practice law in that country? Please check either Yes or No.

__ Yes. Attach a written statement from your law school or the admitting authorities in that foreign country confirming that you have successfully completed all of the educational requirements for admission to practice in that country.

__ No. Please explain what additional educational requirements must be fulfilled in order for you to be eligible for admission to practice law in the foreign country."

I am not certain what "educational requirements" refers to. My degree is recognized by the Law Society and King's Inns, meaning that I do not have to take the preliminary exams for either of those institutions, but I am not sure if this fulfills the "educational requirements" as stipulated by the NY Bar Examiners.

Also, has anybody ever been furnished with a written statement from their (Irish) university confirming that their LLB fulfills the necessary educational requirements for them to be admitted to the practice of law in Ireland?

I would really appreciate ANY advice or information.

Regarding BarBri, I'm not sure about the iPod thing, but they are very strict with recordings of their lectures. There is a BarBri course in my city but the DVDs of the lectures are not allowed off the campus of the host institution, so I'd be surprised if they were available in an mp3 format. I could be wrong though.

P.S. Gabhain, congratulations. Were you working while studying for the NY bar?

domenic1 · 03-07-2009 8:49am

Hi all, I have just joint this club. I am sitting the QLTT exams in Ireland (no Griffith courses) I was wondering whether anyone had already sat them and had materials / suggestions for sale? any help is highly appreciated [EMAIL="rechtlosacker@hotmail"]rechtlosacker@hotmail[/EMAIL]

Spaulding · 04-08-2009 5:26pm

hi all,

i was wondering if someone would be able to give me a list of the Barbri books and others that i would need to help me pass the new york bar exam. i have decided to have a go off it without doing one of the prep courses. there seems to be quite alot of these books for sale on ebay and amazon but i dont have a clue which ones i really need. there seems to be so many. i would really appreciate any suggestions.

thanks

a-ha · 03-09-2009 6:01pm

If you have a law degree you are most likely eligible to sit the New York Bar Exam. The "request for evaluation for foreign legal education" form on the New York Board of Law Examiners website www.nybarexam.org should be submitted to confirm your eligibility.

I did the New York Bar and have an LL.B. from TCD. I know of other students who had the LL.B. degree from Galway who sat the exam. It all depends on whether your law degree meets their durational requirements (approx three years). In summary:

1. Must be common law
2. Must meet durational requirements.

I would highly recommend the New York Bar. It's an excellent qualification and I have found it really does impress employers. The important thing is often to stand out. I did an LL.M. also at a cost of nearly €30,000 and a year of living abroad and studying hard (some partying took place also). By comparison the New York bar is quick, relatively easy and very worthwhile. You can start in October and be an Attorney early the following year if you take the February exams.

I would suggest that you do a preparatory course. Too many people just take a cavalier attitude to study and waste money flying over there to fail.

If you do a course...make sure they have software to allow you to practice the multiple choice (federal bar exam) questions. Basically, the New York Bar exam requires that you learn a new skill...both the multiple choice portion and New York essays require you to have learned how to answer the questions and not merely crammed some American law. You need to have a lot of practice answering the questions. If you are picking a preparatory course choose wisely.

Annesa · 06-09-2009 12:53pm

Hey Guys,

So I am new to this forum and I always think that its amazing how people are so nice and willing to help on these things.

I am a newly qualified Solicitor and I jumped ship and am currently teaching english in South Korea!! Just couldnt handle sitting on the Dole any longer than the 6 weeks I was on it!!

So I am now thinking about next year and what I should do. The New York Bar is definetly looking like an option for me!! I am just wondering if anyone knows anyone who has the materials and is willing to sell them to me?

Also does anyone know the exact list of books that I need to source?

Want to get started on studying as soon as possible, since I know how difficult it is to pass!!

Thanks Guys!!

Annesa

a-ha · 06-09-2009 5:40pm

I'd recommend MicroMash - their manuals contain everything you need to pass, together with easy summaries for the Federal Bar exam and excellent software. Use the software from the word go, even if when you first attempt it you find yourself getting really low scores. It will teach you. Be very careful not to rote learn cases etc. for federal law, bear in mind that the exam tests your knowledge of principles you must master the software and learn the condensed outline.

For New York State law...make sure yet again that you understand what type of essay questions are asked. Prepare for the exam itself and focus on knowing how to answer the essays rather than simply cramming. Give yourself plenty of time to prepare...months rather than weeks.

Lastly, I would recommend that you take a preparatory course if you can. It's simply easier. Once again, MicroMash materials are best so make sure you get the software.

Annesa · 14-09-2009 7:31am

I appreciate the reply. Just trying to source the materials now. I cannot afford the outrageous prices for these prepatory courses so I am hoping that I can do the work alone!!

I just have a query though does anyone know if there are many changes between years. Many of the books that are for sale on ebay are published in 2007 and I am just wondering if they would be considered to be out of date? Dont want to fork out the money for useless material!!

Thanks!!

theo2008 · 17-09-2009 11:53pm

Hi,
I'm thinking of doing the prep course with Griffith for the NY bar exams. Has anyone done this course, any comments on it, is it any good?

zoom505 · 23-09-2009 8:53am

Oliver J. Connolly of Friarylaw.ie has trained more NY attorneys than anyone else in the country. He has courses running nationwide before christmas to my knowledge.

dats_right · 23-09-2009 10:59am

zoom505 wrote: »

Oliver J. Connolly of Friarylaw.ie has trained more NY attorneys than anyone else in the country. He has courses running nationwide before christmas to my knowledge.

True, but said firm charge handsomely for the privilege and certain people may be willing to slum it with other providers, who cannot make such bold claims, in order to save a few quid.

PeterLGriffin · 06-10-2009 3:18am

I'm hopefully sitting the NY bar in Feb 2010. Any suggestions of a useful primer/handbook on US constitutional law before I start into MBE revision? Dublin bookshops only seem to offer up weighty tomes on US history.

As regards the course/study options, I have somewhat limited experience of the NY bar* but I genuinely recommend tackling revision via self-study. If you're motivated enough to have got an LLB then you can knuckle down and study the materials at home. Opinions vary wildly on this issue, but personally i gained nothing from taking an hour out of my day to commute to a classroom, watch a video lecture and observe everyone in the class getting stressed over whether they were working hard enough. I intend to buy the most recent set of BarBri materials off Ebay and work from there. Forking out 4,500 euro for a review course (e.g. Friary) in this economic climate is a ballsy move to say the least.

Incidentally, if anyone is interested in forming a small study group then let me know. I live in D6W.

*I started a BarBri course 2 years ago when I was living in NYC but only spent 2 weeks on the course before I decided not to sit the bar exam altogether for work reasons (i was moving back to the UK). Dull story...!

trekkypj · 06-10-2009 2:02pm

One of the previous posters mentioned that a person who opts for a QLTT test after doing the New York Bar would find it difficult to get into an Irish firm, presumably because the PPCs haven't been done,

Two questions spring to mind.

(1) A person with a 2:2 hons law degree from UL wants to qualify as a solicitor. He believes it would be almost impossible to secure a training contract with the economic situation being what it is. He had planned to sit the FE-1 exams and would have high expectations of getting all eight subjects.

Is there any point in sitting the FE-1 exams and paying the fees for eight exams if there are no prospects of getting a training contract?

(2) The same person is looking at qualifying abroad where there is no training contract required to enter the law society in the other country and complete the equivalent professional practice courses to qualify. New Zealand springs to mind. After qualifying abroad and practicing in that country for a period of time he proposes to do the QLTT and return home. Is this viable?

vote4pedro · 06-10-2009 2:48pm

I cant help you with your second question but regarding the first...

I certainly wouldn't give up with a 2:2 from UL. I got a 2:1 with pretty average grades (usually a rack of Cs, with the odd B thrown in) but managed to get a training contract last year in a big five firm. It's not all about book smarts, if you're a personable enough sort who can go in and sell yourself in an interview well then you'll have a good chance. Think of it from the partner's point of view, anyone can learn essays to pass a Constitutional Law exam, it's of very little relevance to how good you'll be at your job. If you can show in an interview that you're smart, on the ball, witty, clued in about how the world of business works, easy to get on with, dedicated and hard working sort of person, they'll always take that over the person who got a 5 B+'s in their finals but is a drippy little nerd you wouldn't want to be stuck making awkward conversation with for the next 20 years.

Saying that, how do you show you're dedicated, hard working, witty etc? Good grades wont be the be all and end all, but will obviously help. How dedicated could you be if you were failing subjects left and right? If you're worried about your grades try and find something else that will get your foot in the door to get an interview. Maybe that's the NY Bar, I don't know? Maybe a masters, succeeding in some other area, winning an award or something like that, if even in another field will show that you can be a success story. If you get your foot in the door and get the interview, approach your average grades head on.

The partners interviewing you will mention something about college, and straight away admit you found it tough, say why you found it so, and how you worked it around it. Just don't say you found it hard to deal with the stress/workload! Maybe how you've always found it hard in exam situations to finish essay questions, so had to consistently work harder and put in long hours to try and get around that, and made up for it with having a better all round knowledge of the practical elements of law, for example....

If you've got Fe1s behind you it will be a lot easier to convince them that you are hard working, deicated and capable of working for them. Between those, and with some achievements or accomplishments in other areas you could definitely still get a TC.
Speaking of Fe1s i'm off to cram a horrific amount of criminal law!

Sean McGinnis · 08-10-2009 10:42pm

a-ha wrote: »

I'd recommend MicroMash - their manuals contain everything you need to pass, together with easy summaries for the Federal Bar exam and excellent software. Use the software from the word go, even if when you first attempt it you find yourself getting really low scores. It will teach you. Be very careful not to rote learn cases etc. for federal law, bear in mind that the exam tests your knowledge of principles you must master the software and learn the condensed outline.

For New York State law...make sure yet again that you understand what type of essay questions are asked. Prepare for the exam itself and focus on knowing how to answer the essays rather than simply cramming. Give yourself plenty of time to prepare...months rather than weeks.

Lastly, I would recommend that you take a preparatory course if you can. It's simply easier. Once again, MicroMash materials are best so make sure you get the software.

A-ha:

Thank you for the kind words about MicroMash Bar Review. As the managing director of the business, I am heartened by your personal review. We are proud to serve our customers and strive to offer a product that will help make you successful.

By way of FYI, we recently launched a blog to serve the needs of bar exam candidates the world over. Our focus thus far has been on the American law student market, but would appreciate any ideas for postings that might interest this community.

Please feel free to visit our new blog at barexambrief.com. We are also offering updates and tips/tricks via Twitter @micromash and on Facebook as well. You'll find all links and information via my personal profile on the forum. You can also call our toll free number and ask for me personally, in the event you have questions about our programs. 1-800-BAR-EXAM.

Thanks again for the kind words. And I sincerely hope the above doesn't come off as an advert of any sort. Mostly we are looking for how to better serve our customers and potential customers.

Regards,

Sean McGinnis
Managing Director, MicroMash Bar Review

bear17 · 09-10-2009 11:03pm

I considered doing the NY Bar this year at one stage, ultimately decided against it, but I'd agree that it's a very good thing to have on your CV, and I'd definitely look to do it in the future. I am curious though, as to its viability of it as a career path in itself for Irish law students? I understand the problem of returning to Ireland and lacking appropriate training . But, wouldn't it be very difficult to secure work as a NY-trained attorney in NY and the US itself, never mind going to Continental Europe? These are the two options I've heard of, but I've no idea of how one would go about it!

New York Bar Exams

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