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Long term WFH and impact on property

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    #122
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    CPTM wrote: »
    That's correct - but remember there are issues which come with resources from those lower-cost economies. Language, culture, inability to ever meet them even once a fortnight/month for team-building exercises.



    I'd never say everyone. But I would definitely say enough people to make a dent in the housing/rental market problem. Those who own a house already, or have an easy enough commute will probably not care. But nobody will convince me the same holds true for those who are spending 50%+ of their take-home pay on renting crap accommodation which has an hour commute on crappy buses which are all full by 7:45am!

    I mean, you're also saying these people will no longer have to commute. There are other appeal factors to Dublin too


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    #123
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    3. People talk about IBM, they still employ 3k people 352,600 employees in the US (and 3k here) and 130,000 in India. So they still have nearly 3 times as many employees in India as they do out of it.

    I have read this a few times but I don't understand your numbers. Can you clarify.


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    #124
    CPTM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭CPTM


    AdamD wrote: »
    I mean, you're also saying these people will no longer have to commute. There are other appeal factors to Dublin too

    I take your point. Do you not think though the state of the rental market is making it practically impossible for people to rent in Dublin? I mean there are senior managers living in hotels for weeks (sometimes months?) because they can't find a place to rent. Granted there's an airport, more restaurants, more pubs/clubs and of course the big events/concerts are all held there. For me though, the savings people would make on rent (and the stress of finding a place to rent) would outweigh the inconvenience of accessing those perks from somewhere outside the capital.

    Also - couples 'settling down' are continuing to rent in Dublin because they can't afford to get a big enough deposit together for the mega prices which are in Dublin at the moment. Some of them have already resigned themselves to the commuter's life by moving out to Kildare/Meath etc. I just think we'll see an increase in this, and that will have a knock-on effect on the market in Dublin.


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    #125
    secondrowgal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭secondrowgal


    I have two of my team working permanently from home before this happened. Now all are WFH, and it works just fine. Of my 10 staff, the 2 that are currently permanently WFH will stay that way and the others will come back into the office. Not because I want them to, but because they want to. All of them. And our job is 100% doable remotely, 100% of the time. I have always been open to flexible working arrangements, and would actively encourage WFH, but my lot want to come in. Not a huge sample obviously, but just an indication.

    In addition, everyone here is talking about the undoubted savings in rent, utilities, etc., where offices can be downsized but there are other increases that haven't been mentioned. If an employee is wfh the employer still has to (rightly) ensure H&S, correct working environment, etc. For Dublin renters the rent deduction might of course be more substantial than any other ancillary increases. Not always the case for those of us SMEs not Dublin-based.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/working_at_home.html#le0d28


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    #126
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    secondrowgal wrote: »
    I have two of my team working permanently from home before this happened. Now all are WFH, and it works just fine. Of my 10 staff, the 2 that are currently permanently WFH will stay that way and the others will come back into the office. Not because I want them to, but because they want to. All of them. And our job is 100% doable remotely, 100% of the time. I have always been open to flexible working arrangements, and would actively encourage WFH, but my lot want to come in. Not a huge sample obviously, but just an indication.

    In addition, everyone here is talking about the undoubted savings in rent, utilities, etc., where offices can be downsized but there are other increases that haven't been mentioned. If an employee is wfh the employer still has to (rightly) ensure H&S, correct working environment, etc. For Dublin renters the rent deduction might of course be more substantial than any other ancillary increases. Not always the case for those of us SMEs not Dublin-based.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/working_at_home.html#le0d28

    A few buddies of mine really miss the office, and getting out of the house and others are absolutely delighted with WFH...its not for everyone


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    #127
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Read the whole thread just now. A couple of thoughts:
    1. The notion that with work from home every job will be shifted to India is a fake argument in my view. Plenty of companies have tried it and yes they are cheap, but as the saying goes "the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten". Look at Eir - they are a case in point and in the last year have opened call centres in Limerick I think.
    2. The internet is around long enough that if this seismic shift of every job to India were going to happen, it would have happened by now. The main jobs which are shifted to India are low-paid, repeat grunt work (e.g. Amazon) but any job with any sort of value-add is remaining in the 1st world and will do so. Amazon couldn't care if some guy in India helps you sort out where your order is, but they still have 1700 employees in Ireland and many times that in the US doing the real value work.
    3. People talk about IBM, they still employ 3k people 352,600 employees in the US (and 3k here) and 130,000 in India. So they still have nearly 3 times as many employees in India as they do out of it.

    Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.

    Eir moved from Dublin to Limerick where they were already present, they were never offshore.


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    #128
    antgal23
    Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭antgal23


    Bumped into a rugby mate of mine the other day - he works for big fund in Dublin.

    He has been working from home since it started.

    He says his firm ( international) will offer employees to WFH permanently.

    Dunno how many they employ.

    He said that the current feeling in Dublin amongst top office based firms is the same as his

    If true, itll have cataclysmic sized impact on everything.
    Eg
    1/ Brexit firms having signed contracts for office space in Dublin

    2/ Existing firms downsizing

    3/ Will people be reimbursed for working at home?

    4/ insurance for home

    4/ peeps moving outside of Dublin


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    #129
    heroics
    Registered Users Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭heroics


    ED E wrote: »
    Eir moved from Dublin to Limerick where they were already present, they were never offshore.

    Did Eir not outsource support to HCL which used a combination of local and Indian call centres?

    They have now moved it back in house now to try and improve the service.


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    #130
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    They did outsource but it was all Dublin.


    My company has two things:
    An office in India who are a disaster
    A load of Indians in 1st world offices who are great

    Interesting to see if the whole H1B1 thing becomes less attractive to talent acquisition teams.


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    #131
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    heroics wrote: »
    Did Eir not outsource support to HCL which used a combination of local and Indian call centres?

    They have now moved it back in house now to try and improve the service.

    Could be wrong but I am fairly sure the Eir Chat (probably....the worst service in the world) was all done remotely from India.


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    #132
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,669 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    The Chinese team outsourced team were hopeless when I first worked with them in 2007.

    By 2014 when I next worked with them quality had improved markedly. So much so that in 2016 I trained a could to do my job, just before being made redundant.

    Same thing will happen with the Indians. Or far use more likely in out time zones, the Polish, Romanian, Latvian, etc.


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    #133
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭hometruths


    AdamD wrote: »
    I'm not sure this idea that everyone wants to leave Dublin rings true at all

    I don’t think it rings true that anybody is suggesting that everyone wants to leave Dublin.

    IF wfh becomes mainstream long term it will relieve the current pressure on Dublin, meaning there is enough accommodation at a sensible price for the many who do want to live in Dublin, precisely because those who don’t want to live there don’t have to.


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    #134
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Definitely no evidence that everybody wants to leave Dublin! I don't think anybody is suggesting that at all.
    But.....as per the OP....if you can own a lovely big house in Wexford for the same money as a shoe-box in Dublin, I know which option most people would choose, especially when kids come along. I can see why any young lad or young girl would want to live in Dublin though, it's a great city to live in.
    But that said, there are plenty of towns like Wexford or Gorey which are great when you get a few more years on the clock. Lots of good pubs, shops, tick many boxes once those mad 20s are over for most people.
    Sure look, different strokes for different folks


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    #135
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    salonfire wrote: »
    You're assuming your job will always be there. Hint: it may not.

    Then you may need to take another job that requires you to be physically onsite and you are left commuting from your massive house with its massive empty office for hours every day because beside you is nothing but fields.

    Where I'm building my house I am 40 mins or less commute to my current job and a large array of other companies etc in the city and surrounds.

    I want to live at home, have a family farm there which I will be running on the side along with my main off farm job, building on our own land so selling would never be an option etc. If I have to or want to move job it will always have to be commutable or wfh as I have zero interest in moving anywhere else even if I didn't have ties to the area that would make it difficult.

    The type of highly skilled work I do will always be similarish even in a different company and will always have a large portion of it that is suitable to WFH, it is also the type of work that regardless of the company they will always offer lots of flexibility so I would not be concerned about having an empty office at home as it will always be used by me or my wife who also working in an area that WFH is very common at least some of the time (also need an office for the farm business anyway aside from off farm).


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I’m sorry if this has been asked previously on the thread, but if WFH becomes more and more the norm for tech businesses, why would the employer restrict recruitment to the domestic market? Surely if there is no physical need for the employee to attend a particular location, job advertisements would be open anyone, anywhere who meets the required qualifications/experience? So now domestic applicants or even those already in employment are in competition with people in much lower cost economies.

    Very little risk in this imo. Most jobs that can be outsourced already are and many have been in-sourced again as it generally doesn't work well. Then there are plenty of other reasons like skill sets, regulatory reasons, tax reasons, grants and supports etc etc


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    #136
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Niko White Spruce wrote: »
    Very little risk in this imo. Most jobs that can be outsourced already are and many have been in-sourced again as it generally doesn't work well. Then there are plenty of other reasons like skill sets, regulatory reasons, tax reasons, grants and supports etc etc

    But outsourced jobs prior to this meant lay offs, unions, bad publicity etc. For new hires, companies had to consider how a candidate would fit in, would they relocate, will they be able to find accommodation etc, now what I am curious about is, is it necessary for a new hire for a “WFH job” to be physically in Ireland? If this is the way tech/financial are going, it seems to me that it’s like turkeys voting for Christmas if the employer can hire from any workforce worldwide.

    Coincidentally, on the Last Word at the moment they are discussing WFH. Apparently Facebook are planning to lower wages paid to employees who WFH as they will not have cost of commuting or living in expensive cities.


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    #137
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Dav010 wrote: »
    But outsourced jobs prior to this meant lay offs, unions, bad publicity etc. For new hires, companies had to consider how a candidate would fit in, would they relocate, will they be able to find accommodation etc, now what I am curious about is, is it necessary for a new hire for a “WFH job” to be physically in Ireland? If this is the way tech/financial are going, it seems to me that it’s like turkeys voting for Christmas if the employer can hire from any workforce worldwide.

    Coincidentally, on the Last Word at the moment they are discussing WFH. Apparently Facebook are planning to lower wages paid to employees who WFH as they will not have cost of commuting or living in expensive cities.

    I'd say Facebook are kite flying that one, it would be a mass exodus if people can earn more elsewhere! Also how do you square the person who bought the house in Shankill who now decided they don't want to commute to city centre, and somebody else who buys a house in Leitrim? If anything, Facebook should be saving money on very expensive office space, etc.


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    #138
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    I'd say Facebook are kite flying that one, it would be a mass exodus if people can earn more elsewhere! Also how do you square the person who bought the house in Shankill who now decided they don't want to commute to city centre, and somebody else who buys a house in Leitrim? If anything, Facebook should be saving money on very expensive office space, etc.

    Imagine the insurance cost savings alone for one of their office spaces


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    #139
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dav010 wrote: »
    But outsourced jobs prior to this meant lay offs, unions, bad publicity etc. For new hires, companies had to consider how a candidate would fit in, would they relocate, will they be able to find accommodation etc, now what I am curious about is, is it necessary for a new hire for a “WFH job” to be physically in Ireland? If this is the way tech/financial are going, it seems to me that it’s like turkeys voting for Christmas if the employer can hire from any workforce worldwide.

    Many tech companies could have done this long ago if they wanted but they haven't. The fact is to outsourcing to cheap countries barely works for low skilled call centre type work, it will not work for skilled jobs hence it has not already happened. Most jobs will require at least occasional time onsite also for meetings, training when you join etc and flying someone over from India is not practical. Its doable from an EU country say but then the wages wont be any cheaper so its really just a case of hiring the best person for the job which is what they would do now anyway.
    Dav010 wrote: »
    Coincidentally, on the Last Word at the moment they are discussing WFH. Apparently Facebook are planning to lower wages paid to employees who WFH as they will not have cost of commuting or living in expensive cities.

    I don't see much of an issue, plenty could easily end up better off WFH with a small pay cut but owning a very nice house rather than renting a shoe box or sharing etc.


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    #140
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Niko White Spruce wrote: »
    Many tech companies could have done this long ago if they wanted but they haven't. The fact is to outsourcing to cheap countries barely works for low skilled call centre type work, it will not work for skilled jobs hence it has not already happened.



    I don't see much of an issue, plenty could easily end up better off WFH with a small pay cut but owning a very nice house rather than renting a shoe box or sharing etc.

    Nox, many companies could have a wfh policy, but didn’t, until now. Now they no longer need to put a face to the name, how long do you think it will be before employers start to look at cost savings by employing techs from other countries.

    I can see how a domestic employee is necessary if everyone has to come into an office, but if they don’t have to physically come to work, then distance from the office is inconsequential, you just need to find someone to do the job right. It would be crazy for employers who have wfh policy not look at cheaper alternatives to do the same job.


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    #141
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,031 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Niko White Spruce wrote: »
    Many tech companies could have done this long ago if they wanted but they haven't. The fact is to outsourcing to cheap countries barely works for low skilled call centre type work, it will not work for skilled jobs hence it has not already happened. Most jobs will require at least occasional time onsite also for meetings, training when you join etc and flying someone over from India is not practical. Its doable from an EU country say but then the wages wont be any cheaper so its really just a case of hiring the best person for the job which is what they would do now anyway.



    I don't see much of an issue, plenty could easily end up better off WFH with a small pay cut but owning a very nice house rather than renting a shoe box or sharing etc.

    Plenty (if not all) tech companies could have had people WFH permanently a long time ago but they didnt do that either.

    Some people are getting a taste of WFH and think its some sort of game
    changer. Its only a game changer if you are enabled to WFH to such a significant extent that your whereabouts become irrelevant.
    I have yet to see that happen at any scale in 20% working in the industry.

    In fact the only time I have seen it is when an employee who works from the office is moving for other reasons and the company doesnt want to lose them. Thats a small percentage of people.


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    #142
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Plenty (if not all) tech companies could have had people WFH permanently a long time ago but they didnt do that either.

    Some people are getting a taste of WFH and think its some sort of game
    changer. Its only a game changer if you are enabled to WFH to such a significant extent that your whereabouts become irrelevant.
    I have yet to see that happen at any scale in 20% working in the industry.

    In fact the only time I have seen it is when an employee who works from the office is moving for other reasons and the company doesnt want to lose them. Thats a small percentage of people.

    I don't think it has to even be 100% work from home to be honest to make it a significant advantage for many many people.

    I have absolutely no interest in living in Dublin so that cuts out all Dublin jobs for me. However if I could live where I want in Co. Galway and WFH 70-80% of the time for a Dublin based company that would be perfectly doable imo. 1 day a week or two some weeks driving to Dublin to be onsite would be a non-issue. Up and down in the same day or stay up one night if doing two days. That's just an example.

    Also many companies have allowed significant levels of WFH long before covid, in tech particularly I know two people working for a multinational who live on the other side of the country to where their job is based and come in a few days a month max sometimes months without coming in. They took these jobs as onsite and then wanted to move elsewhere and kept their job. I myself have only been in our main office for about 8 days since the start of the year with working from home or in a remote office alone the rest of the time. Without covid I probably would have been another 5 days in the office in the time since the lockdown began so it's making very little difference to me.


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    #143
    pinkyeye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭pinkyeye


    The thing that most people are ignoring here in the WFH discussion is we STILL don't have widespread good broadband coverage in Ireland.

    I'm working from home since the lockdown and the internet and phone signal have been painful. Moved to a rural location 5 years ago and I love it but the one downfall has been that despite trying every single option I still don't have good broadband.

    Last option now is Eir, thought I was on the pigsback when they declared they have fibre broadband in the area. No, they came out, had a look and said they will need planning permission to get the line 6 feet from the P&T box to my house, initially promised a date of 4th May back in March, it's now been pushed back to 4th August and I'll believe it when I see it, say it will be 2021 at the very earliest.

    Can't wait to get back to the office, lack of communication with people is so frustrating. Have to email or text because the phone signal is so bad they can't hear me.

    Also, I got free meals at work so there hasn't been any overall saving for me considering I'm paying more electricity and heating (not so bad recently but winter would cost me a fortune).

    Also miss the social interaction and the fact that you have to make yourself look presentable!!

    Horses for courses I suppose and if I had a decent phone line and broadband I'd probably be a lot happier.


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    #144
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Plenty (if not all) tech companies could have had people WFH permanently a long time ago but they didnt do that either.

    Some people are getting a taste of WFH and think its some sort of game
    changer. Its only a game changer if you are enabled to WFH to such a significant extent that your whereabouts become irrelevant.
    I have yet to see that happen at any scale in 20% working in the industry.

    In fact the only time I have seen it is when an employee who works from the office is moving for other reasons and the company doesnt want to lose them. Thats a small percentage of people.

    Yours sounds like complete opinion.do you work in a multinational or WFH? Bit of a silly argument also people used and still use horses long after cars were invented. Things grow in popularity in time.


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