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How to negotiate a rent decrease
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18-05-2020 10:05pm#1My housemate and I moved into a house in Dublin 6 three years ago. At the time the rent was €1600, now increased to €1750.
We accepted the two rental increases (max amount) because to move would have cost a lot more, which is no longer the case. There are currently a number of two bedroom properties in our area being advertised for €1200, €1400 or €1500. The increased supply is having an immediate effect on rent prices in the area.
We take care of the place, we always pay our rent on time and we don’t ask for a lot. I’d like to think we’re considered good tenants.
The landlord owns about 20 houses in the area. I don’t know him personally, we only communicate through the agency.
I’m self-employed and my income has reduced, while my housemate was laid off for a few weeks and just went back to work today.
We think we’re in a reasonable position to renegotiate our rent, but don’t know the best way to approach it.
Do I just lay out the facts as above? Do I say we’re going to move out if they don’t accommodate us somehow? (Realistically this would be a fairly empty threat, I don’t actually want to move house)
Our goal would be to get back to our original rent of €1600. They’ll probably want to meet us in the middle so do we ask for €1500 and move to that?0
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My housemate and I moved into a house in Dublin 6 three years ago. At the time the rent was €1600, now increased to €1750.
We accepted the two rental increases (max amount) because to move would have cost a lot more, which is no longer the case. There are currently a number of two bedroom properties in our area being advertised for €1200, €1400 or €1500. The increased supply is having an immediate effect on rent prices in the area.
We take care of the place, we always pay our rent on time and we don’t ask for a lot. I’d like to think we’re considered good tenants.
The landlord owns about 20 houses in the area. I don’t know him personally, we only communicate through the agency.
I’m self-employed and my income has reduced, while my housemate was laid off for a few weeks and just went back to work today.
We think we’re in a reasonable position to renegotiate our rent, but don’t know the best way to approach it.
Do I just lay out the facts as above? Do I say we’re going to move out if they don’t accommodate us somehow? (Realistically this would be a fairly empty threat, I don’t actually want to move house)
Our goal would be to get back to our original rent of €1600. They’ll probably want to meet us in the middle so do we ask for €1500 and move to that?
Send a list of similar stuff from Daft showing the lower prices and ask for €1500. Fairly straightforward.
But you would be mad to stay if they say no.0 -
Paying your rent on time and being little bother is the basics not anything making you a good tenant. Besides how your income has dropped has the landlord changed anything to decrease the property? Do you have a lease?0
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Ray Palmer wrote: »Paying your rent on time and being little bother is the basics not anything making you a good tenant. Besides how your income has dropped has the landlord changed anything to decrease the property? Do you have a lease?
What else would be required to be considered a good tenant?
I signed a lease when we moved in, but it was with a different agency and for 12 months at €1600. We have now been there three years and accepted two rent increases without complaint because it was in line with the market.
However, the market has now changed and there are similar properties charging a lot less. So no, the landlord hasn’t changed anything but the market has. It’s unlikely he’ll get the €1750 he’s charging us if we were to move out and the agency put it back on daft.0 -
What else would be required to be considered a good tenant?
I signed a lease when we moved in, but it was with a different agency and for 12 months at €1600. We have now been there three years and accepted two rent increases without complaint because it was in line with the market.
However, the market has now changed and there are similar properties charging a lot less. So no, the landlord hasn’t changed anything but the market has. It’s unlikely he’ll get the €1750 he’s charging us if we were to move out and the agency put it back on daft.
A good tenant would need to do more than their basic requirements. You stated you met your basic requirements therefore just not bad but that doesn't make you good by default.
Give your proper notice for length of time you stayed.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »A good tenant would need to do more than their basic requirements. You stated you met your basic requirements therefore just not bad but that doesn't make you good by default.
Give your proper notice for length of time you stayed.
Cool. Any advice on how to negotiate a rent decrease?0 -
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Ray Palmer wrote: »A good tenant would need to do more than their basic requirements. You stated you met your basic requirements therefore just not bad but that doesn't make you good by default.
Give your proper notice for length of time you stayed.
What is a good tenant then? A tenant that refurbishes the apartment and doesn't charge the landlord? That pays above market rates or bids for a property?
Quite a unrealistic view of what a good tenant is IMHO...
Good manners, paying rent on time and looking after the property should certainly make any tenant a good tenant.0 -
Cool. Any advice on how to negotiate a rent decrease?
Hopefully some realistic advice as I happen to know people who managed to negotiate a rent reduction.
They've all had a temporary loss of income due to covid (employer reduced wages by 10%). What they've managed to secure was a temporary reduction in rent to match their loss of income.
Now the key here is the nature of the reduction - temporary. Given how fluid the situation is it is unlikely that any landlord will accept a permanent reduction. You'll just have to wait it out, which is what everyone seems to be doing.0 -
What is a good tenant then? A tenant that refurbishes the apartment and doesn't charge the landlord? That pays above market rates or bids for a property?
Quite a unrealistic view of what a good tenant is IMHO...
Good manners, paying rent on time and looking after the property should certainly make any tenant a good tenant.
Yup, I’d have thought the fact that we’re there for a significant amount of time with no issues would count in our favour too.
And we don’t have a lot of dealings with the agency but we’re always polite when we do.
When we have made requests like asking for curtains because the place gets cold in winter, they were turned down and we didn’t make a big deal of it.0 -
You mention that you see properties for less than your one. Are they in the same location, ie same size, same apartment or house etc?
What is the condition of the others like?
Are there any available properties that are also 1750?
A drop of 10pc is quite high. I know I’d personally decline it but it depends on the situation. This drop might only be temporary and once the full lockdown is over. Rental prices might go back to normal - I know in my own case, one tenant wanted to leave and I offered them the place at 50pc for one month when we were peaking with covid and then it will be back to normal price, they were leaving so it was fine but in your case if you intend to stay on. Dropping the amount by 10pc could take 2 years or more to get it back up to that level.0 -
What is a good tenant then? A tenant that refurbishes the apartment and doesn't charge the landlord? That pays above market rates or bids for a property?
Quite a unrealistic view of what a good tenant is IMHO...
Good manners, paying rent on time and looking after the property should certainly make any tenant a good tenant.
You just described the basic obligations. That does not make you good nor bad. The same way a good landlord is not simply somebody who does what they are meant but goes above and beyond the basics.
It is very simple view and if you judge a minimum as good you must make a great employee.
OP
I told you how to negotiate, give notice. Are you sure the abundant rentals are not short term leases?0 -
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Cool. Any advice on how to negotiate a rent decrease?
The first rule of negotiation is to know where you draw the line, and not to make empty threats.
You've already said you don't actually want to move. Obviously the agency doesn't know this, but it puts you on the back foot immediately. So you're not really "negotiating", just "requesting".
I think all you can say is "we've been here 6 years, have never given any trouble. We have been impacted by the current situation, and would like to request a reduction in rent to €1,600 a month, which is still higher than other similar properties in the area."0 -
You mention that you see properties for less than your one. Are they in the same location, ie same size, same apartment or house etc?
What is the condition of the others like?
Are there any available properties that are also 1750?
A drop of 10pc is quite high. I know I’d personally decline it but it depends on the situation. This drop might only be temporary and once the full lockdown is over. Rental prices might go back to normal - I know in my own case, one tenant wanted to leave and I offered them the place at 50pc for one month when we were peaking with covid and then it will be back to normal price, they were leaving so it was fine but in your case if you intend to stay on. Dropping the amount by 10pc could take 2 years or more to get it back up to that level.
The places I’m comparing to are within 500-600m of where I live now and also two bedrooms of similar size. Ours might be slightly more recently done up.
There are some that are still being advertised at €1750+ (this is Dublin 6 after all) but I think the agency would find it hard to get it for ours as it’s a small place. They are basically two single rooms that they have shoehorned double beds into.
We paid 50% of our rent last month as we were both on the Covid payment but that is to be paid back.
I doubt the rent prices will go back to normal. There’s a huge amount of International students in the area who most likely won’t be back this year, plus the increases supply from Airbnb lets now on the market.
Rent is due on the 6th so I’ll take another look on daft 10 days or so before it’s due and see if the situation has changed further.
If most properties now being advertised are in the €1400-€1500 range that’s what we’ll ask for but will agree to €1600.0 -
Hopefully some realistic advice as I happen to know people who managed to negotiate a rent reduction.
They've all had a temporary loss of income due to covid (employer reduced wages by 10%). What they've managed to secure was a temporary reduction in rent to match their loss of income.
Now the key here is the nature of the reduction - temporary. Given how fluid the situation is it is unlikely that any landlord will accept a permanent reduction. You'll just have to wait it out, which is what everyone seems to be doing.
The key here is the nature of the market. The landlord undoubtedly raised the rent because “supply and demand indicated that that’s what the market rate for the property is”. It didn’t matter if the OP’s salary increased to meet the market demand.
Therefore now the OP is in the driving seat. What they need to decide before they do anything is whether they are willing to take action if they don’t get an decrease? If not, then all they can do is ask. If they are, then they can negotiate the same as any job offer.
I’d say start by showing them comparable properties in the area. Even better if you have viewed and been accepted to any. Don’t mention salary or pay cuts. Just talk about the market. The increase in rentals properties available. The decrease in rent prices. And then, if you don’t get a reduction, you move.0 -
The places I’m comparing to are within 500-600m of where I live now and also two bedrooms of similar size. Ours might be slightly more recently done up.
There are some that are still being advertised at €1750+ (this is Dublin 6 after all) but I think the agency would find it hard to get it for ours as it’s a small place. They are basically two single rooms that they have shoehorned double beds into.
We paid 50% of our rent last month as we were both on the Covid payment but that is to be paid back.
I doubt the rent prices will go back to normal. There’s a huge amount of International students in the area who most likely won’t be back this year, plus the increases supply from Airbnb lets now on the market.
Rent is due on the 6th so I’ll take another look on daft 10 days or so before it’s due and see if the situation has changed further.
If most properties now being advertised are in the €1400-€1500 range that’s what we’ll ask for but will agree to €1600.
Personally based on tHe info you have provided so far. I probably wouldn’t give you any reduction for a few reasons.
1)Once you decrease rent. It takes much longer to increase rent.
2)the extra influx of Airbnb will end soon as there are only so many that will change to standard rentals and most of them have already done this
3)if the lockdown continues as per the phases the government have setup. Most industries will
Be back to semi normal in 1-2months
4)the fact they have already granted you 50pc payment and now you are back for more so soon would annoy me personally and at that point I’d probably just say to myself “I’d prefer if you were out. I’d keep the 50pc from your deposit to get my money back quicker and get in a full paying tenant again”
5)movement of people has slowed down and come to a standstill due to covid but as things open up, people will go back to normal and demand has still not decreased.
6) I do see house purchase prices decreasing but at the end of the day people still need to live somewhere so demand for rents will remain as is in my opinion.
You can ask if you want as you don’t have much to loose. Personally I would remember it and wouldn’t give much leaway in the future considering you already got 50pc rent payment.0 -
I'd largely agree with this.The first rule of negotiation is to know where you draw the line, and not to make empty threats.
You've already said you don't actually want to move. Obviously the agency doesn't know this, but it puts you on the back foot immediately. So you're not really "negotiating", just "requesting".
I think all you can say is "we've been here 6 years, have never given any trouble. We have been impacted by the current situation, and would like to request a reduction in rent to €1,600 a month, which is still higher than other similar properties in the area."
Going the route of "We're intending to hand in our notice as we intend to rent a similar property for cheaper, we have not signed yet however" would obviously give this a lot more bite, but you don't want to go there and risk your current place, so you might be left just making a polite request.0 -
Personally based on tHe info you have provided so far. I probably wouldn’t give you any reduction for a few reasons.
1)Once you decrease rent. It takes much longer to increase rent.
2)the extra influx of Airbnb will end soon as there are only so many that will change to standard rentals and most of them have already done this
3)if the lockdown continues as per the phases the government have setup. Most industries will
Be back to semi normal in 1-2months
4)the fact they have already granted you 50pc payment and now you are back for more so soon would annoy me personally and at that point I’d probably just say to myself “I’d prefer if you were out. I’d keep the 50pc from your deposit to get my money back quicker and get in a full paying tenant again”
5)movement of people has slowed down and come to a standstill due to covid but as things open up, people will go back to normal and demand has still not decreased.
6) I do see house purchase prices decreasing but at the end of the day people still need to live somewhere so demand for rents will remain as is in my opinion.
You can ask if you want as you don’t have much to loose. Personally I would remember it and wouldn’t give much leaway in the future considering you already got 50pc rent payment.
I think you misunderstood. They allowed us to delay paying 50% of our rent, we still have to pay it, just a few weeks later.
I doubt the landlord will take it as personally as you are talking about; he has hundreds of tenants across many properties.
I imagine his primary concern will be whether he could find a new tenant easily who would pay the €1750. I very much doubt it.0 -
Just found out one of the apartments upstairs is becoming vacant as the Spanish girl who lives in it isn’t coming back.
It’ll be interesting and informative to see what her apartment is advertised at. Hers is a one bed.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »You just described the basic obligations. That does not make you good nor bad. The same way a good landlord is not simply somebody who does what they are meant but goes above and beyond the basics.
It is very simple view and if you judge a minimum as good you must make a great employee.
OP
I told you how to negotiate, give notice. Are you sure the abundant rentals are not short term leases?
You still don’t seem to be able to the answer the question of - what makes a good tenant?0 -
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You still don’t seem to be able to the answer the question of - what makes a good tenant?
No I answered it you just want everything spelt out. Above the basic requirements makes you good.
If a tenant rings a landlord because there is a leak at 2 am without attempting to shut the water off is a bad tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and rings the next day is a normal tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and arranges a plumber after telling the landlord is a good tenant. The tenant that shuts off the water and fixes the leak is excellent.
From a landlord who gets the call and says shut off the water is a normal landlord and calls a plumber the next day. The LL that calls down the next day and fixes it himself is a good landlord. The one that calls down straight after the call to switch water off for them and fixes the leak straight away is excellent.
Not hard to see what is above and beyond0 -
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Ray Palmer wrote: »No I answered it you just want everything spelt out. Above the basic requirements makes you good.
If a tenant rings a landlord because there is a leak at 2 am without attempting to shut the water off is a bad tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and rings the next day is a normal tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and arranges a plumber after telling the landlord is a good tenant. The tenant that shuts off the water and fixes the leak is excellent.
From a landlord who gets the call and says shut off the water is a normal landlord and calls a plumber the next day. The LL that calls down the next day and fixes it himself is a good landlord. The one that calls down straight after the call to switch water off for them and fixes the leak straight away is excellent.
Not hard to see what is above and beyond
That's a rather dystopian view of what a good tenant should be! Doing what the LL should do and never bothering the LL even when they're 'at fault'.
Are you a LL?0 -
I think you misunderstood. They allowed us to delay paying 50% of our rent, we still have to pay it, just a few weeks later.
I doubt the landlord will take it as personally as you are talking about; he has hundreds of tenants across many properties.
I imagine his primary concern will be whether he could find a new tenant easily who would pay the €1750. I very much doubt it.
I understood the dynamic, I just know they pretty much had no choice but to allow it. Then the fact you come to them again shortly after asking for delay in payment would annoy me.
If you think he won’t get 1750 fair enough but I’d personally prefer to hold out until the dust settles before I lower the rental price.0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »No I answered it you just want everything spelt out. Above the basic requirements makes you good.
If a tenant rings a landlord because there is a leak at 2 am without attempting to shut the water off is a bad tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and rings the next day is a normal tenant. The tenant that switches off the water and arranges a plumber after telling the landlord is a good tenant. The tenant that shuts off the water and fixes the leak is excellent.
From a landlord who gets the call and says shut off the water is a normal landlord and calls a plumber the next day. The LL that calls down the next day and fixes it himself is a good landlord. The one that calls down straight after the call to switch water off for them and fixes the leak straight away is excellent.
Not hard to see what is above and beyond
This has to be trolling.
A tenant who always pays on time, has positive/polite interactions with the landlord and doesn't bother the landlord unnecessarily, is a 'good' tenant in the eyes of rational people.
I'd say you'd be a delight for references. "So, Ray, was John a good tenant"?
(Ray, thinking back to that time when John, who has lived there for 5 years, always paid on time, always been courteous and polite to Ray and never bothered him unnecessarily, had the audacity to ring him and inform him that there had been a leak the previous night and he had shut off the water - and asked if Ray, the landlord, could arrange for it to be fixed)
"No.....I would say he was just more of a normal tenant if you get my drift".0 -
That's a rather dystopian view of what a good tenant should be! Doing what the LL should do and never bothering the LL even when they're 'at fault'.
Are you a LL?
I don't think you understand the word "dystopian". Doing the basics doesn't make you "good" it makes you basic. Where is the landlord in that situation at fault? Doing things the easiest way possible is good for everyone.
What is so terrible about a tenant switching off the water themselves and calling a plumber? If they owned the place would they leave the leak all night?
Yes I am a landlord and arrived at 2:30 am to shut off the water because the tenant couldn't find the shut off when told. They drunkenly tripped and smash the sink and broke the taps off. Are they a good or bad tenant in your eyes?0 -
Ray Palmer wrote: »I don't think you understand the word "dystopian". Doing the basics doesn't make you "good" it makes you basic. Where is the landlord in that situation at fault? Doing things the easiest way possible is good for everyone.
What is so terrible about a tenant switching off the water themselves and calling a plumber? If they owned the place would they leave the leak all night?
Yes I am a landlord and arrived at 2:30 am to shut off the water because the tenant couldn't find the shut off when told. They drunkenly tripped and smash the sink and broke the taps off. Are they a good or bad tenant in your eyes?
You're a LL and had a very poor experience with a tenant, I guess that explains your opinion, and we are all entitled to have our own opinions... not arguing with that.
I'm totally fine with a tenant shutting off the pipes - if they are provided with instructions on where to find the shut off valve by the LL to begin with.
What I don't agree with is the tenant calling a plumber and arranging the repairs - the LL will pay for the plumber and should be the one responsible to get a quote, send a professional to do the job and ensuring that the job has been adequately carried out. After all the LL owns the property and needs to ensure it will be properly maintained.
If at a later stage it is determined that the tenant was at fault, the LL has every right to pursue compensation. Until responsibility for the issue is established, the LL is responsible and liable for the repair. That's what a deposit is for - anything that goes beyond normal wear and tear.
So the tenant doing a quick 'fix' as instructed and AUTHORISED by the LL - yes, totally agree. Tenant providing the repair themselves, and not consulting the LL - strongly disagree.0 -
You're a LL and had a very poor experience with a tenant, I guess that explains your opinion, and we are all entitled to have our own opinions... not arguing with that.
I'm totally fine with a tenant shutting off the pipes - if they are provided with instructions on where to find the shut off valve by the LL to begin with.
What I don't agree with is the tenant calling a plumber and arranging the repairs - the LL will pay for the plumber and should be the one responsible to get a quote, send a professional to do the job and ensuring that the job has been adequately carried out. After all the LL owns the property and needs to ensure it will be properly maintained.
If at a later stage it is determined that the tenant was at fault, the LL has every right to pursue compensation. Until responsibility for the issue is established, the LL is responsible and liable for the repair. That's what a deposit is for - anything that goes beyond normal wear and tear.
So the tenant doing a quick 'fix' as instructed and AUTHORISED by the LL - yes, totally agree. Tenant providing the repair themselves, and not consulting the LL - strongly disagree.
I can assure you I have dealt with many more tenants than you have dealt with landlords. If this was the worst experience I encountered I'd be laughing.
I also probably managed more people than you have. If the measure of a good employee was the meet their basic requirements of work companies would fail.
You want to define good as meeting basic requirements. Nowhere in the rest of context is that considered good.
Every place I rent has a book explaining where the services are and how to switch them off. How to change the light bulbs and what to do in standard situations. Still get calls about riddiculious things that are in the books. One guy would ring me every time he tripped a fuse. Went down and straight away see he has a faulty cable on his stereo. He never mentioned the fuse tripped when he plugged it in but did want me to buy him a new one0 -
OP your house mate was off work for a few weeks and it sound like the rent it not a problem. Why would the landlord reduce the rent. You want to break the terms of the tenancy I would say that is not been a good tenant. Also you say you dont ask for much what have you previously asked for and what was the reply ? This will determine alot of what the real relationship is like. If the landlord reduces the rent. Would you agreed to put it back up to market rate when the market turns ? Just because there are properties in the area at a certain price doesn't say much , all properties are different and until you look at them and then if you want it you might not get it.0
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What else would be required to be considered a good tenant?
I signed a lease when we moved in, but it was with a different agency and for 12 months at €1600. We have now been there three years and accepted two rent increases without complaint because it was in line with the market.
However, the market has now changed and there are similar properties charging a lot less. So no, the landlord hasn’t changed anything but the market has. It’s unlikely he’ll get the €1750 he’s charging us if we were to move out and the agency put it back on daft.
Ok ask the landlord to reduce the rent if he refuses then mobnb.and face the consequences of breaking your lease. This is purely a commercial transaction. If you are in a rpz then I suspect the landlord was not getting market rent over the last couple of years and the additional properties available are most likely air bnb0 -
The Student wrote: »Ok ask the landlord to reduce the rent if he refuses then mobnb.and face the consequences of breaking your lease. This is purely a commercial transaction. If you are in a rpz then I suspect the landlord was not getting market rent over the last couple of years and the additional properties available are most likely air bnb
Where did you get the idea that I want to break my lease? I want to renegotiate the terms, it’s a fairly different thing.
Anecdotally, I know a lot of non-Irish in Dublin are moving to their home countries, and irish people who work for Facebook etc moving back to their home county because their working from home until at least Christmas. The supply coming on isn’t just Airbnb. Also, a lot of international students who would usually be arriving in August/ September simply won’t be.
I don’t really care about the good tenant/ bad tenant argument. We could definitely say I’m a long-term and reliable tenant if that makes it easier to understand.
Right now there is a 3 bedroom on my street for €100 less per month than my 2 bed. I know my landlord has a good few properties vacant at the moment because I can see them on Daft (exact same fittings and decor as mine)
Anyway, thanks for your input. Having read a bit online I understand it’s better to speak to the agency over the phone than email in the first instance so I’ll do that.
I’ll explain that we’re considering moving to one of the similar but cheaper properties in the area, but that we would consider staying if they could reach some compromise with us on rent.0 -
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Where did you get the idea that I want to break my lease? I want to renegotiate the terms, it’s a fairly different thing.
Anecdotally, I know a lot of non-Irish in Dublin are moving to their home countries, and irish people who work for Facebook etc moving back to their home county because their working from home until at least Christmas. The supply coming on isn’t just Airbnb. Also, a lot of international students who would usually be arriving in August/ September simply won’t be.
I don’t really care about the good tenant/ bad tenant argument. We could definitely say I’m a long-term and reliable tenant if that makes it easier to understand.
Right now there is a 3 bedroom on my street for €100 less per month than my 2 bed. I know my landlord has a good few properties vacant at the moment because I can see them on Daft (exact same fittings and decor as mine)
Anyway, thanks for your input. Having read a bit online I understand it’s better to speak to the agency over the phone than email in the first instance so I’ll do that.
I’ll explain that we’re considering moving to one of the similar but cheaper properties in the area, but that we would consider staying if they could reach some compromise with us on rent.
You were getting below market rent for the last couple of years so. I am a landlord in a rpz and both of my properties are 20% and 33% below market rate.
You are looking to reduce your rent which we all would try if you can that's a rational business decision. Personally I would not agree because of the anti landlord stance of the Govt.
The landlord does not know the long term implications of their agreeing to a reduction. I would rent it for short term of 5 months at a time to give me the flexibility to hold the rent at the normal rates after covid and the new normal.0
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