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Small scale PV (DIY)

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Comments

  • #32
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,676 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I got a brand new Solis dual MPPT 3.6kW inverter (with the Irish EN50438 cert) from a UK seller on eBay for €250 including shipping at the start of this year.


  • #33
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    @unkle. I can only hope to find that kind of value. It must have been an "unwanted gift" :). I dont see any shop on ebay or anything like that kind of value yet

    Im just trying to find out if one inverter is better than another and why. they will all generate A/C and may have different levels of monitoring implemented but I dont know what else to look for.

    A quick question. for the turn on voltage of a string. is it the cumulative of VMP or VOC for the initial turn on.

    I'm trying to gauge how easy it will be on dull days to reach the on voltage of 90-100V depending on brand. Even though from my limited playing around with small panels any light will give you the 0.5V per cell but will be current limited until more intense light hits the cell.

    Also see my aspect at 4.15pm today 26th of May.
    East has my flat roof at the back but the vents may limit me to one panel height.

    West is the front of my house but the roof has complex geometry. and the side is south facing but again with limited height may not get more than 3 panels.

    Until I have a you can fit x east and x west or south is bigger than I think.

    I think it will come down to if I do it by the book with a 500mm exclusion from all leading edges through SEAI I may be very limited. Or break the rules a little and see how many I can fit.


  • #34
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,676 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Have you any shadowing at all? If you do, you will be better off with micro inverters

    I wouldn't bother with your S roof, won't fit 3 panels. W you might, but probably not if you stick to the 50cm rule. Dunno, hard to guess

    E has plenty of space, you could consider the kitchen extension roof too! You could even decide to only go E with two strings, leave the panels on the kitchen extension as flat as possible to get solar all day long (provided there is no shadowing)
    phester28 wrote: »
    Even though from my limited playing around with small panels any light will give you the 0.5V per cell but will be current limited until more intense light hits the cell.

    This is it. You get close to the nominal most of the time


  • #35
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    Just to update . some of the invertiers mentioned earlier (ebay available) just wont cut it for 4 Panel string. The startup voltage is around 120 or 125V for these models. Which 4 panels would just make but the MPPT would be at the min voltage so from what I can read it would be less efficient.


    The Solis range has the lowest startup voltage (60 or 90) depending on model but the new cost of a dual mppt is high and no second market for these on ebay at present. I'll aspire to find a deal like unkel on ebay :)


  • #36
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    phester28 wrote: »
    Just to update . some of the invertiers mentioned earlier (ebay available) just wont cut it for 4 Panel string. The startup voltage is around 120 or 125V for these models. Which 4 panels would just make but the MPPT would be at the min voltage so from what I can read it would be less efficient.


    The Solis range has the lowest startup voltage (60 or 90) depending on model but the new cost of a dual mppt is high and no second market for these on ebay at present. I'll aspire to find a deal like unkel on ebay :)

    Tbh,I'll challenge respectful unkel to attach a link to Ebay auction with the e250 inverter....


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  • #37
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,676 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    rolion wrote: »
    Tbh,I'll challenge respectful unkel to attach a link to Ebay auction with the e250 inverter....

    You doubting Thomas ;)

    481318.jpg

    Brand spanking new in the original sealed and unopened box. It wasn't an auction. It was buy it now. He was looking for GBP250 iirc, but I made him an offer of GBP200 which he accepted (after he first rejected my even lower offer). Shipping was GBP20. Somehow I was stupid enough to pay with PayPal, and it hit my account for EUR255.40. Would have been well under EUR250 with Revolut

    Your turn now Rolion. Show us the receipt for your ABB inverter.


  • #38
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    good to know what there are options is you want to upgrade to a battery without having to change your whole setup / inverter

    GoodWe GW2500-BP DC https://www.ebay.ie/itm/SPECIAL-OFFER-GoodWe-GW2500-BP-DC-Battery-Controller-inverter-for-PylonTech/323212350869?hash=item4b40f51595


  • #39
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    unkel wrote: »
    You doubting Thomas ;)



    Brand spanking new in the original sealed and unopened box. It wasn't an auction. It was buy it now. He was looking for GBP250 iirc, but I made him an offer of GBP200 which he accepted (after he first rejected my even lower offer). Shipping was GBP20. Somehow I was stupid enough to pay with PayPal, and it hit my account for EUR255.40. Would have been well under EUR250 with Revolut

    Your turn now Rolion. Show us the receipt for your ABB inverter.


    Thanks,aapreciated,no offence.

    I was trying to make a point: you got a good hating bargain in there, person to person and not from a well established and regular front shop and / or business, with support and warranty. If my ABB was €1k and today i wanna sell it for €250 that doesnt mean that all ABBs will have to be bought at the same price.That cannot be generalised across the market.

    I bought my ABB maybe over 4 years ago,along with the LG panels,don't have the paper work,i will try find it somewhere in emails (is not so easy as a link to ebay). I think it was in region of €1,000 with 5 years local warranty UK/Ireland. An LG panel was over €270 each. Only delivery costs me with insurance over 500 from the continent by truck. This is the prices payed by the pioneers in the industry, all local delaers had more or less appropiate prices but not the products that i wanted so thats why i had to go abroad to get exact model and type. We will save this posts here and check again in few years time... ;)

    Prices have dropped in buyer's advantage and in selling quantity for the dealer/manufacturer. No doubt, but look at the quality and about the 10 or 25 years warranty is complete BS. It will cost you more to send it back to them than to order a new one. Also,it will be out of the order as has to be same parameters otherwise your array will go crazy. Not the same with inverter where no questions can be asked despite hearing somewhere that they can (in)validate if you overcharged the inverter with more panels that accepted.

    Anyway,all good today,soil is full of water for plants and trees for the next couple of weeks and the Sun is shinning...
    Be good.


  • #40
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    rolion wrote: »
    .

    Anyway,all good today,soil is full of water for plants and trees for the next couple of weeks and the Sun is shinning...
    Be good.

    I want proof the sun is shining. It's not shining here :D


  • #41
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,676 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Find the invoice for your inverter yet, rolion? If you demand from others to prove what they were saying was the truth, you need to do same in return.


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  • #42
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    unkel wrote: »
    Find the invoice for your inverter yet, rolion? If you demand from others to prove what they were saying was the truth, you need to do same in return.

    As attached.
    It took me a while to figure out why you need my Proof Of Purchase... and still wondering why .... can you help !?


  • #43
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    rolion wrote: »
    As attached.
    It took me a while to figure out why you need my Proof Of Purchase... and still wondering why .... can you help !?

    Did you buy from Slovakia Rolion? Might be worth chatting to my in-laws if you did!


  • #44
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,676 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    €3,290 for 7 panels and inverter - ouch! For 7 panels (collected them myself in Dublin) and my inverter shipped would have cost me €955 incl VAT and shipping just 3 years later :eek:


  • #45
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    unkel wrote: »
    €3,290 for 7 panels and inverter - ouch! For 7 panels (collected them myself in Dublin) and my inverter shipped would have cost me €955 incl VAT and shipping just 3 years later :eek:

    Curious where you got panels for ~€100 inc VAT? Cheapest I could find locally were ~€130 inc VAT.


  • #46
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,676 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    It was a particularly cheap batch of panels (no longer available), mono, but only 290W and I got it at trade discount, basically the price the SEAI installers pay their wholesaler


  • #47
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    I don't wanna discuss private matters on a public forum.

    Less, starting a chase and hunting cheap,no name,discounted products either,bought at trade liquidation or even worse,from a solar plant deal that went wrong.
    Some of the panels are failing the testing QA standards and are being throwed on the market at discounted rates with reduced or affected performance.
    Or,din't fit the technical performance tests into a big solar farm and returned to dealer to be then "trade discounted" to end users.
    Just to mention that I dont have any proves to prove it,in case i am being challenged, sorry.

    Personal,i did my home work and years ago i found those LG panels to be premium as they were researched,designed & manufactured by LG.
    They came with individual QA certificate, attached to each panel,with technical parameters certified.
    Next batch,same LGs and same premium quality.
    I have in total 15 LG panels that are happy harvesting for me.

    Inverter, the ABB brand,is an industrial brand that can be trusted in any market or country.
    Not mentioning it was the only one certified by Irish Grid parameters

    Delivery "rather than colelction" it was not possible due to the fact that no Irish dealer had those products in stock or could order for me,whatever i wasnt able to do it myself.
    They were offering some other brands that didnt inspired me confidence,all at that time.The truth, those unkown brands have become the normal selling units these days... But,the "know how" provided by the dealer were right on the spot and invaluable helpful.

    I am living under the concept that "i'm too poor to buy cheap".
    I could be right or i could be wrong .


    If the PV panels,artificially being under commercial pressure by EU an China will have followed the same pattern as the EVs cars, now,we,here... will have been talking a different story these days...

    Be good


  • #48
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,676 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    rolion wrote: »
    Less, starting a chase and hunting cheap,no name,discounted products either,bought at trade liquidation or even worse,from a solar plant deal that went wrong.

    :rolleyes:

    Not allowed to name names, but these came from an Irish wholesaler that supplies a lot of Irish developers and SEAI installers. Via via I was able to arrange the trade discount.

    It was a big batch and it was sold out quickly because it was very popular with developers. Look at a new housing estate just built in the last few months, chances are it has the same panels that I have.


  • #49
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    unkel wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    Not allowed to name names, but these came from an Irish wholesaler that supplies a lot of Irish developers and SEAI installers. Via via I was able to arrange the trade discount.

    It was a big batch and it was sold out quickly because it was very popular with developers. Look at a new housing estate just built in the last few months, chances are it has the same panels that I have.

    Thanks.

    I am proud that i am a pioneer in this market,today.
    My LGs gave me 10MWh,10,000KWh today.

    My EV car cost new almost 30k,bought it 4 years later at a fraction of the cost.
    Do i feel sorry for the original buyer !?? Maybe, financially but i am sure he was aware of the issues with depreciation and really enjoy it the beauty of the innovative car, careless about money...

    This is the price i have to pay in order to be the first "someone" to try something new or to enjoy the challenges. AND,to share the "know how" and how to avoid my errors,mistakes and do it better for the next one person,project or third party maybe.
    More or less like you and me...
    NOW, if you have access to inside intelligence and contacts with direct trade channels,opposite to us retail clients, then we can see the huge mark-up the dealer,installer,fitter has as per your own posts above. Even worse,saying that an inverter or a panel comes at this price as purchased by you, gets everyone around here scratching their heads and breaking keyboards and mouse on ebay trying to match your best prices... well, can't you agree with me saying that , well that is ... a bit false and wrong and disrespectful !? :rolleyes:


  • #50
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,676 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    rolion wrote: »
    NOW, if you have access to inside intelligence and contacts with direct trade channels,opposite to us retail clients, then we can see the huge mark-up the dealer,installer,fitter has as per your own posts above.

    The markup between retail and wholesale prices is tiny, dude. Depending on the wholesaler, it's about 10-15%


  • #51
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    unkel wrote: »
    Find the invoice for your inverter yet, rolion? If you demand from others to prove what they were saying was the truth, you need to do same in return.

    Please find attached my inverter Irish grid certification,validation and the quality report.
    May i challenge you respectfully again to attach your compliance and QA certificate inverter purchased of ebay, please !? ;)


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  • #52
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,676 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Dude, it's a Solis 4G dual MPPT current version. Probably the most commonly installed solar inverter in Ireland by SEAI installers

    Spec sheet is here. Note that is the website of the biggest solar wholesale provider in Ireland


  • #53
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    Quick question.

    I can fit 4 panels on my main roof facing east. A max of 3 facing west on the opposite side. The West side is harder to access and will not be serviceable by me without scaffolding etc.

    I can fit an additional 3 across the flat roof facing east but they will begin to be overshadowed at around 4.45pm by the main house. If I put a 4th panel on the flat roof then this will sit behind the first 3 so the time for overshadowing will decrease by around an hour. From what I understand so far If I do 2 parallel strings of 4 panels then I can use a simple single string inverter and when the shadowing starts the shaded parallel string will just stop producing. If I remember correctly this has to be the same number of panels as the main roof.

    I have yet to cost the mounting system cost of the Console+ and ballast for the flat roof but all other costs are easy and DIY on the flat roof


  • #54
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    Kind of lost you without a picture,a visual reference...

    If shadowing is a big issue,is that Summer or Winter times ?
    Keep in your mind that Sun travels across sky and designs a diferent curvature every day / month...
    You may have the shadow at 4pm Summer and at 2pm in the Winter,which kind of fckus up your plans...

    Trying to use most panels on the east or west makes no logic with our weather patterns and without a tracker.
    Puting more in the East to get most of the morning light makes sense but what if the weather is overcast and no Sun at all until...well,until in afternoon when it beats the West side of the roof / panels !??

    Best compromise,fit as many as you can price wise and coverage THEN get these little devices H E R E, a TIGO optimiser.
    That will increase the cost of the project...

    Good luck and i share your pain in the back shadow of the panel...


  • #55
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,676 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I would probably choose not to install any panel that would get shade at any time of the day. But if I had to, I would use Tigo optimisers for every panel in the string that has at least one panel that gets shade. Not cheap though, if you have a string of 4 panels and one gets shadow, this will effectively well over double the price of that shaded panel. Or in other words, that panel will never pay for itself. Also these things won't last as long as the panels and when they fail, you will need to go back up on your roof. As I said, personally I wouldn't fit any panel that would get shade.


  • #56
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    any idea what an optimiser costs. single vs dual panel. I wonder if its more economical to use two single string inverters and leave the mppt do its thing for each string instead. if location is an issue or a dual string inverter

    Attached is my east facing. My main roof east can fit 4 panels west can only fit 3 panels and south 1 or 2.

    West and south are hard to access for me and if I use a roofer then will most likely require scaffolding etc. But east is likely that a roofer would just use a ladder so may be more cost effective.


  • #57
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    Better image but still no ideea how the Sun does his works over a day or a month !

    I'll do it East and West on same input on the inverter.
    Leave South on the other input, as it will get longer exposure / harvesting time across day time.

    East,you can fit 7 panels in landscape mode.
    Cannot see for South ,guess easy 6 or 8.
    West, as well,7 panels easily.

    Smarter,i will do:
    7 panels x 330W on East = 2.4Kw
    2 x 20 solar tubes on the South side with a 300L cylinder
    7 panels x 330W on West = 2.4Kw

    You get grants for both of them and very good value,as efficency,Return and grants...
    i know,plannig permission,screw that,wait until some complains and then apply for retention in 12 months time.(do not take it as an advice).
    You dont need scaffolding,i can easily get on the roof from the back of the house... just play safe !

    Good luck... doing it cheap is doing it twice, same thing again !


  • #58
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    I wish there was that much space on my roof. The only company to respond to my inquiries so far has confirmed that I can fit 4 max east and 3 max west.
    The 4 are 3 in portrait and one in landscape. They said south only 1 but I think 2 can fit there. This is trying to comply with the SEAI 500mm exclusion on the perimeter too but it might cut short on some of my angles.

    Post 33 has my 3 aspects. Each tile you can see is 300mm wide by 250mm high


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