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UK's private school students are being "persecuted akin to the Jewish people"

  • 15-05-2019 11:01am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Head of Stowe school a private school in Buckinghamshire argued that
    the questioning the disproportionate numbers of privately educated people in positions of power was akin to “the conspiratorial language of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and the language of “Hitler and his henchmen.

    There’s a much more concerted effort by [Oxbridge] admissions tutors to drive down the number of places given to independent schools,” he told the Times. “Privately educated pupils in the UK are also being accused of dominating the top jobs and stifling social mobility … it is all too facile to stereotype groups and ignore the fact that lawyers, doctors, writers and politicians are individuals.

    Leaders in the Jewish community obviously denounced this comparison.

    This comes as Oxford is under the spotlight as it was revealed that 47% of its students come from private schools despite those schools only representing only 7% of the population. Oxford, to be fair to them has pledged to reduce or limit the number of applicants from private schools.

    This isn't simply from a position of equality but in response the revelation that studies show the that the results that these students receive in GCSEs aren't reflective of their actual academic ability. When they get to university they don't do as well as state school pupils.


    So Oxford are letting a near majority of its students from private schools when research shows that state school students do better at university. Even forgetting equality for a minute, why shouldn't Oxford seek to have the best pupils and reduce those whose school privilege may have lent itself to an inflated academic score?

    Also why do people feel the need to attack people who seek to challenge privilege?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Lol what sort of **** would someone have to be to actually think of that analogy let alone use it in public!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    He's just looking after his own, if numbers attending Oxbridge from privates schools fall then so does the attractiveness of attending these schools.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,344 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    What way does college selection work in the UK? CAO system here stops favoritism based on schools directly. Although going to better equipped schools and grid schools do give advantages it is still based on grade achievement.
    The US system is even worse with the way it selects pupils. Such a corrupt and exclusionary model.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    amcalester wrote: »
    He's just looking after his own, if numbers attending Oxbridge from privates schools fall then so does the attractiveness of attending these schools.

    But he's not looking after his own. You don't do that by comparing the already privileged kids to victims of the Holocaust.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,325 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    The world has worse problems to sort out the Uk is a pretty good place to live and dose alright on meritocracy, nowhere is perfect.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,251 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    What way does college selection work in the UK? CAO system here stops favoritism based on schools directly. Although going to better equipped schools and grid schools do give advantages it is still based on grade achievement.
    The US system is even worse with the way it selects pupils. Such a corrupt and exclusionary model.

    They have a points system but you also have to write a personal statement which leaves a lot of wiggle room for them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    But he's not looking after his own. You don't do that by comparing the already privileged kids to victims of the Holocaust.

    Attempting to look after his own.

    Very silly analogy for sure, but it shouldn't be surprising that the head of a private school is in favour of the status quo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    amcalester wrote: »
    Attempting to look after his own.

    Very silly analogy for sure, but it shouldn't be surprising that the head of a private school is in favour of the status quo.

    Indeed but should it be surprising that other people fight for the best pupils to attend Oxford and not just the richest?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    What way does college selection work in the UK? CAO system here stops favoritism based on schools directly. Although going to better equipped schools and grid schools do give advantages it is still based on grade achievement.
    The US system is even worse with the way it selects pupils. Such a corrupt and exclusionary model.

    You can't compare these studies with Irish studies. We have private schools but they're heavily subsidised. One school in Dublin only wanted children "south of the river to attend" but they were soon corrected on that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭AlphabetCards


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Indeed but should it be surprising that other people fight for the best pupils to attend Oxford and not just the richest?

    If you look at the figures, you may find that the media could be be hoist by its own petard. Stowe school doesn't really do as well in A levels for AAB% as state/comprehensives in its region, so by specifying positions that are open to state/comp schools only, it is in fact increasing the chance that a person from Stowe would have do do far better than a state school child in order to secure a place.

    This is effectively punishing children for the decisions made by their well-off parents, and is nothing but classism.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Indeed but should it be surprising that other people fight for the best pupils to attend Oxford and not just the richest?

    Absolutely and I'm not defending the guy, just pointing out that what he says should be taken with a massive pinch of salt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭AlphabetCards


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The world has worse problems to sort out the Uk is a pretty good place to live and dose alright on meritocracy, nowhere is perfect.

    Amen. It's great over here. I'd never go back to Ireland, everything feels like a closed shop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,822 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    The US system is even worse with the way it selects pupils. Such a corrupt and exclusionary model.

    Their SAT's are a reasonable approach? also the US maybe entering a peak in terms of collage attendance, its beginning to be seen as a joke and an expensive one.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    If you look at the figures, you may find that the media could be be hoist by its own petard. Stowe school doesn't really do as well in A levels for AAB% as state/comprehensives in its region, so by specifying positions that are open to state/comp schools only, it is in fact increasing the chance that a person from Stowe would have do do far better than a state school child in order to secure a place.

    This is effectively punishing children for the decisions made by their well-off parents, and is nothing but classism.

    But unfortunately the studies show that private school students do worse when they get to university. You're saying that universities shouldn't seek the best students and minimise the under performers?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭jim o doom


    That's very interesting really! And not to mention, these private school kids are many times born to a life of privelge, meet other priveleged children, such as the kids of active politicians, which sketches out their adult life of continued privelege.

    In a way, comparing it to the plight of the Jewish people, is similar to how Israel tries to paint any criticism of Israel as "anti Jewish".

    ALWAYS try to portray yourself as the victim to avoid criticism would be the take away.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,442 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Also why do people feel the need to attack people who seek to challenge privilege?


    Because the people who seek to “challenge privilege” tend to be annoying fcuks.

    steddyeddy wrote: »
    But unfortunately the studies show that private school students do worse when they get to university. You're saying that universities shouldn't seek the best students and minimise the under performers?


    Universities have never been about seeking the best students, they’re more like expensive day care centres for the wealthy who can afford to send their children to Universities with the best reputation in the provision of said childminding services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy



    Universities have never been about seeking the best students, they’re more like expensive day care centres for the wealthy who can afford to send their children to Universities with the best reputation in the provision of said childminding services.

    Well sorry Jack but I want to be sure that the society has the best scientists, doctors and engineers. I don't want my taxes to fund day care centres.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Head of Stowe school a private school in Buckinghamshire argued that



    Leaders in the Jewish community obviously denounced this comparison.

    This comes as Oxford is under the spotlight as it was revealed that 47% of its students come from private schools despite those schools only representing only 7% of the population. Oxford, to be fair to them has pledged to reduce or limit the number of applicants from private schools.

    This isn't simply from a position of equality but in response the revelation that studies show the that the results that these students receive in GCSEs aren't reflective of their actual academic ability. When they get to university they don't do as well as state school pupils.


    So Oxford are letting a near majority of its students from private schools when research shows that state school students do better at university. Even forgetting equality for a minute, why shouldn't Oxford seek to have the best pupils and reduce those whose school privilege may have lent itself to an inflated academic score?

    Also why do people feel the need to attack people who seek to challenge privilege?

    ridiculous comments from the head, absolutely stupid thing to say.

    Can you confirm your figures though?

    According to the articles linked (and the link in the second to Oxford's own statistics) 58% are from state schools, but that does not equate to the remainder being from private schools as the Guardian presumes.

    77% of pupils at Oxford are from the UK, so surely it should read that 19% are from private schools?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,442 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well sorry Jack but I want to be sure that the society has the best scientists, doctors and engineers. I don't want my taxes to fund day care centres.


    None of us actually have any choice in where our taxes are spent. It’s yet another reason why even in a society with the most well educated scientists, doctors and engineers; it’s politicians, and not University educated children banging on about “challenging privilege”, will ultimately decide where public funds are spent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    In the UK "private" schools are actually called Public Schools.
    Fun fact.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    jim o doom wrote: »
    That's very interesting really! And not to mention, these private school kids are many times born to a life of privelge, meet other priveleged children, such as the kids of active politicians, which sketches out their adult life of continued privelege.

    In a way, comparing it to the plight of the Jewish people, is similar to how Israel tries to paint any criticism of Israel as "anti Jewish".

    ALWAYS try to portray yourself as the victim to avoid criticism would be the take away.

    I know it's mad right. They feel their kids are entitled to superior treatment based on class and the ones who challenge that are labelled as discriminating against class.

    I'm a member on our organisation's Athena Swan board in a UK university. We deal with gender, class and race discrimination and ensuring equality of opportunity.

    Time and time again when there's moves to analyse fairness in admissions regarding the school the pupil attends the heads of these top fee paying schools complain that the children they teach are victims of class discrimination. The same children that studies show under perform at university in relation to poorer children, the same ones who get a place in a university sometimes at the expense of a poorer but brighter student.

    People like this feel their wealth entitles them and their kids to attend university. To convince themselves that this entitlement is right they'll come up with myths like "private school kids are brighter" and to challenge their beliefs is apparently classism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    None of us actually have any choice in where our taxes are spent. It’s yet another reason why even in a society with the most well educated scientists, doctors and engineers; it’s politicians, and not University educated children banging on about “challenging privilege”, will ultimately decide where public funds are spent.

    I do Jack. I sit on an equality board in the university. We have some say in admissions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Aegir wrote: »
    ridiculous comments from the head, absolutely stupid thing to say.

    Can you confirm your figures though?

    According to the articles linked (and the link in the second to Oxford's own statistics) 58% are from state schools, but that does not equate to the remainder being from private schools as the Guardian presumes.

    77% of pupils at Oxford are from the UK, so surely it should read that 19% are from private schools?

    Thanks for correcting me Aegir. An article from the BBC suggests that 42% of Oxford students come from private schools.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Thanks for correcting me Aegir. An article from the BBC suggests that 42% of Oxford students come from private schools.

    the BBC make the same mistake as the Guardian do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Aegir wrote: »
    the BBC make the same mistake as the Guardian do.

    A could you point out where they say they assume the remainder of students must come from private school?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    GreeBo wrote: »
    In the UK "private" schools are actually called Public Schools.
    Fun fact.

    that's not strictly correct. Public schools originally referred to a limited number of very old, very posh schools, usually boys boarding schools like Eton and Rugby and was used because they were owned by the public, not the state.

    Most private schools today would be called either private or independent, with independent probably the most common.

    Anyone who tells you they went to a "Public" school is almost always guaranteed to be a complete wanker.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    A could you point out where they say they assume the remainder of students must come from private school?

    read the report, it isn't difficult.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Aegir wrote: »
    read the report, it isn't difficult.

    Point it out A.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,442 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I do Jack. I sit on an equality board in the university. We have some say in admissions.


    That gives you some say in admissions, it doesn’t give you any say in how your taxes are spent. That’s decided by politicians, and sitting on an equality board at a University isn’t going to have all that much of an influence in who is or isn’t admitted to University when the main criteria for admissions is still those people wealthy enough to be able to afford to send their children to Universities.

    It’s the trainee politicians in the SU will be deciding in the future how much funding is given to equality and diversity programmes over how much funding is given to scientific research. That Government funded “equality board” you’re sitting on for example -


    Athena SWAN (Scientific Women’s Academic Network) is a charter established and managed by the UK Equality Challenge Unit (now part of Advance HE) in 2005 that recognises and celebrates good practices in higher education and research institutions towards the advancement of gender equality: representation, progression and success for all.

    ...

    An exploratory study of women's and men's perceptions of Athena SWAN was broadly positive and highlighted the significance of government funding being linked to SWAN awards, but it also highlighted the limitations of whether the process can change longstanding and entrenched issues in society.


    Athena SWAN


    All that being said of course, when I hear anyone come out with the expression “challenging privilege”, it’s the wealthy SU types who I was referring to such as these examples -

    White males' should be BANNED from speaking during university classes so women and transgender students are more willing to contribute to discussions, seminar suggests

    Pictured: Diversity officer who banned whites from her 'anti-racism' event at British university wiping away fake tear in front of 'no white men' sign


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Point it out A.

    I couldn't see any statistic that says that, only that 58% come from state schools. It may be the case that it is 42% of oxford students come from independent schools, but from what I can see, it is an assumption.

    The Sutton Trust report is a fascinating read. https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/AccesstoAdvantage-2018.pdf


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