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FI Charts ( T120+ onwards) Winter 2020 **READ MOD NOTE IN FIRST POST**

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    The stratospheric warmimg more or less looks like it has been a bust for us if we look at most of the latest ouput. If we were going to get deep cold it would be showing up by now. A swing back to a very cold outlook is very unlikely now before February. It seems the la nina influence has won out over the SSW in our region.

    Or it could just be a delay and the cold comes in feb.
    I think and this is probably hopecasting, that the models will show better charts the last week of Jan and the cold will strike first week of feb.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,870 ✭✭✭pauldry


    Personally I dont think the models are able to get a handle on the coming weeks scenario at all as it is an all over the place scenario with lows and highs every which way. It will be interesting to see how the actual events pan out but certainly not looking as cold as it once was but neither as mild as some may think.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    pauldry wrote: »
    Personally I dont think the models are able to get a handle on the coming weeks scenario at all as it is an all over the place scenario with lows and highs every which way. It will be interesting to see how the actual events pan out but certainly not looking as cold as it once was but neither as mild as some may think.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if it snows in the next week. I have forecast snow in some of the sites for next Wednesday and Thursday.

    I can’t imagine it’ll be all mild, as the cold has been quite close at times. Today it is only about 50 miles away.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,699 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    not looking at models here either, no point. Still no real change from all the uncertainty and plenty of relatively mild runs in the mix.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,206 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Gonzo wrote: »
    not looking at models here either, no point. Still no real change from all the uncertainty and plenty of relatively mild runs in the mix.

    I don't think reverse psychology works on the models but I'm willing to try anything too :)


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,699 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    The stratospheric warmimg more or less looks like it has been a bust for us if we look at most of the latest ouput. If we were going to get deep cold it would be showing up by now. A swing back to a very cold outlook is very unlikely now before February. It seems the la nina influence has won out over the SSW in our region.

    was thinking the same, the warming happened almost 2 weeks ago and any strong signals of a proper cold spell are more or less gone. If this worked we should be well into the ramping phase by now or at least very strong signals for cold appearing in all the models. It does appear we get a brief cool spell but it is full of Atlantic modification. February could even bring back a strong Atlantic as the PV will regain most of the strength it lost over the past 6 weeks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    Gonzo wrote: »
    was thinking the same, the warming happened almost 2 weeks ago and any strong signals of a proper cold spell are more or less gone. If this worked we should be well into the ramping phase by now or at least very strong signals for cold appearing in all the models. It does appear we get a brief cool spell but it is full of Atlantic modification. February could even bring back a strong Atlantic as the PV will regain most of the strength it lost over the past 6 weeks.


    But that was if it was a quick troposphere response, which it clearly isn't. The response time can be quick or somewhat slower,like weeks down the line. So I wouldn't give up yet.

    Atm there is a minor warming taking place in the strat.
    Still an evolving situation imo.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,699 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    Billcarson wrote: »
    But that was if it was a quick troposphere response, which it clearly isn't. The response time can be quick or somewhat slower,like weeks down the line. So I wouldn't give up yet.

    The response in 2018 was very quick from what I remember. We seemed to be doing alright this year in terms of the pattern right up to the when the SSW took place, you could say we didn't really need one this winter. We have had extreme unreliability in the models ever since and 'luck' seems to be turning against us if anything, it's possible that this SSW may be changing things not in our favour but we won't know for sure for several more weeks. We could easily end up with a 2012 situation where most of Europe and mainland UK is in the freezer regularly and a case of close but no cigar for Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    Gonzo wrote: »
    The response in 2018 was very quick from what I remember. We seemed to be doing alright this year in terms of the pattern right up to the when the SSW took place, you could say we didn't really need one this winter. We have had extreme unreliability in the models ever since and 'luck' seems to be turning against us if anything, it's possible that this SSW may be changing things not in our favour but we won't know for sure for several more weeks. We could easily end up with a 2012 situation where most of Europe and mainland UK is in the freezer regularly and a case of close but no cigar for Ireland.

    One thing I hope we dont end up with is another march 2013,that would be a real kick in the teeth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭Kunta Kinte


    Billcarson wrote: »
    One thing I hope we dont end up with is another march 2013,that would be a real kick in the teeth.

    What happened then that was so bad?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    What happened then that was so bad?


    Coldest march in 60 yrs . Plenty of northern blocking.
    Parts of the north did well regards snow but it was really too late for most.
    A number of times that month I had some snow in the ground during the morning, only to be vanished by lunchtime. Frustrating thinking of what could have been if it had been some weeks earlier.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,064 ✭✭✭sicknotexi


    Billcarson wrote: »
    Coldest march in 60 yrs . Plenty of northern blocking.
    Parts of the north did well regards snow but it was really too late for most.
    A number of times that month I had some snow in the ground during the morning, only to be vanished by lunchtime. Frustrating thinking of what could have been if it had been some weeks earlier.

    Remember that, it was cold until early April but we saw no snow. The UK and parts of the North got buried iirc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 692 ✭✭✭bazlers


    Something tells me there will be alot more blocking over greenland in tonights runs. Hopfully its not too far West.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,624 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Billcarson wrote: »
    But that was if it was a quick troposphere response, which it clearly isn't. The response time can be quick or somewhat slower,like weeks down the line. So I wouldn't give up yet.

    Atm there is a minor warming taking place in the strat.
    Still an evolving situation imo.
    The thing is if we look at the Northern Hemisphere profile its seem quite likely that the SSW has been factored into the output, otherwise we would not be seeing the vortex moved around the way it is ,and the ridging towards the north west. Unfortunately, It's just a timely reminder that you can have all the glorious background signals that suggest we should get cold, but it means diddly squat as to what weather we end up with. Just to be clear i am not saying we won't get snow at times, but the chances of a deep freeze look remote before late January, but then we have the problem of the strat revovering. There is a lag time between this and its effects on the troposphere, so maybe you are right, we could get lucky in early Februrary before any Atlantic take over.


  • Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭bosco12345


    Billcarson wrote: »
    One thing I hope we dont end up with is another march 2013,that would be a real kick in the teeth.

    That was mental. I remember it snowing regularly into the first week of april (during the day). Freakish weather


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Some German input:

    From https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.dwd.de/DE/wetter/thema_des_tages/thema_des_tages_neuestes_node.html
    The possible effects of warming in the stratosphere on our weather
    Date 01/14/2021

    A polar vortex that was severely weakened in January 2021 can also affect the weather in Germany in the coming weeks. But how does this event affect us and can statements be made at all?

    Last Sunday (01/10/21) Dr. Bonewitz described the current strongly weakened state of the polar vortex in the stratosphere and the development that led to this event (see link).

    The polar vortex is an extensive high altitude low caused by the negative winter radiation balance prevailing in the high latitudes. With prevailing westerly winds (the polar night jet), it influences the weather not only in the high but also in the middle latitudes and indirectly (via the stratospheric or global circulation) also in the tropics. The vortex can temporarily weaken due to various external influences, followed by warming, which can peak at 30 to 50 degrees Celsius within a few days, a so-called "sudden stratospheric warming (SSW)". In extreme cases it is even possible that the climatologically dominant westerly winds change into easterly winds, which is the definition of a "striking SSW" (or major warming).

    The weakening of the polar vortex can then work its way from the stratosphere to the troposphere in the following weeks and have a lasting effect on the weather events that are sensitive to us. But to anticipate it right away - clear statements cannot be made here, because the predictions in this subject area are mostly very uncertain and should be treated with caution. One reason for the uncertainties is that between 1979 and 2019 there were just 26 weeks of pregnancy. In addition to the small amount of data, it was also found that these events were associated with a high degree of variability with regard to the effects on the troposphere, our weather layer.But what can be said now? With the help of statistical evaluations of the general weather conditions occurring in the European-Atlantic area after SSWs, one can estimate possible developments or tendencies, i.e. ideally assign repeating typical weather patterns. Whether, where and with what intensity these will arrive can only be estimated at a comparatively short notice even today with all this technology (see the linked medium-term article from January 2nd).

    After we had the first wind reversal at the beginning of January, the next should take place in the second half of January, which is definitely a striking event for the stratosphere. The question now arises as to how this development can affect our weather, including the results of the scientific paper by Domeisen et al. Linked below. is used: This work comes to the conclusion that after a SSW, from a statistical point of view, a clearly negative NAO (see DWD Lexicon) often prevails. It is also stated that depending on the prevailing general weather situation at the time of SSW, certain scenarios for the weather events subsequently arise in Northern and Central Europe, among others.

    In short, in the negative phase of the NAO, instead of a strong low pressure area over Iceland, a high pressure area is expected there, which is also indicated by the current forecasts of the European Weather Center (ECMWF in Reading) for the further course in January. As a result, it is not possible to establish a "low pressure highway" from the west that constantly brings mild Atlantic air to us, but rather the low pressure areas have to move far south and thus potentially tap into very warm air masses. Meanwhile, the air mass over Siberia and Scandinavia is increasingly cooling (among other things the result of the weakening polar vortex, which keeps the cold air in the "healthy" state near the North Pole and is now weakened and cannot prevent the outflow of polar air mass).Further information can be found in the paper.

    In fact, in the coming weeks the cold air body that has so far prevailed over South and East Asia will increasingly shift to Siberia and also cover Scandinavia - see the graphic attached to the topic of the day, where the anomaly values ​​(deviations) of the 2 m temperature from one 20-year model climatology for January 18-25, 2021. The prediction is made more difficult by the fact that the temperature contrasts between the land masses and the North Atlantic intensify due to the approach of the Arctic body of cold air, including to Canada. This stimulates the formation of strong low pressure areas. Their influence on Europe in the form of very mild air masses and the Arctic cold air expanding into Northern Europe are a breeding ground for events that may potentially deviate from the climate,be it in the form of particularly mild / stormy phases or strong north / east winds with icy cold. The past has shown that strong cold air ingresses occur more frequently in Northern and Central Europe after an SSW, but there is no guarantee for this. The option for a section with arctic air masses is given solely by the proximity of the body of cold air, as well as the formation of distinctive air mass boundaries with all the harassment that winter weather has to offer. This can also be seen in the wild jumping of the weather models in the extended medium term (end of January) between very warm and icy cold, but very often with increased storm potential for Western and partly also Central Europe. As the effects of a SSW, they should work their way down,affect the weather in the troposphere with an average delay of around 10 to 15 days, but a technically exciting second half of January and an interesting February can be imminent.

    How extreme such an event can be became apparent at the turn of the year in the Asia-North Pacific sector. Since the polar vortex weakened early, especially over Asia, there repeatedly icy polar air flowed south and drove the air pressure in Mongolia, among other places, to over 1090 hPa at the end of December, which would represent a new world record after verification. After the icy air mass reached the north-western North Pacific with maximum temperatures of well below minus 40 degrees Celsius in some cases, numerous violent storm lows developed, with a core pressure of estimated 921 hPa and 924.8 hPa (both records) measured on Shemya (Alaska) at the turn of the year has blown the previous air pressure record for extra-tropical low pressure areas in the North Pacific.In addition, massive amounts of snow fell over parts of Japan (in the mountains and partly down to the coastal regions) (e.g. Takada with 103 cm in 24 hours and 187 cm in 72 hours, both values ​​an all-time record even for the snow-tested region).

    It doesn’t have to be that extreme and it certainly won’t be that extreme, but compared to the past calm weather months alone, the increasing dynamics will probably be felt. And isn't this uncertainty also exciting - where is this journey going?

    Dipl.-Met. Helge Tuschy

    German Weather Service forecast and advice center Offenbach, January 14th, 2021

    Copyright (c) German Weather Service


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,870 ✭✭✭pauldry


    Looking at latest GFS rollout.

    Favouring colder conditions for the North from next Tuesday.
    Wintry showers for sure. Just how wintry?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,699 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    looks like the mild is clearly going to win the battle across much of western Europe and pushing into central Europe over the next week. The warm uppers make it as far as the German/Polish border by Tuesday. If you want cold weather anywhere from Greece to Sweden and eastwards looks very good.

    We may get a temporary push of colder weather later next week but that is very much up in the air at the moment. The heights over Iberia appear to be going absolutely nowhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,129 ✭✭✭highdef


    Gonzo wrote: »
    looks like the mild is clearly going to win the battle across much of western Europe and pushing into central Europe over the next week. The warm uppers make it as far as the German/Polish border by Tuesday. If you want cold weather anywhere from Greece to Sweden and eastwards looks very good.

    And then of course the 12z GFS that is rolling out begins to tease us with a cool down by midweek next week with wintry conditions over many parts of the country by the weekend plus a decent increase in heights over Greeenland. Oh GFS, you really do like to show us what we want to see and then take it back 6 hours later :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    While much of western Europe may warm up next week it looks like next week will be a colder week here then this week .


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,699 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    the models may begin stabilizing now. I think what we will see is standard Irish weather fare over the coming 7 to 10 days. Relatively mild much of the time but some push of cold from the north-west at times which may deliver cold rain showers and some hill snow. At this stage a genuinely cold spell with lying low level snow appears off the table now in the short to possibly medium term. The consistent highs over Spain and southern Europe is preventing us getting any real cold weather and keeping the Atlantic well and truly alive for us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,500 ✭✭✭Billcarson


    My hope is that from next week onwards the weeks get progressively colder and we hit the jackpot first week of feb.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,699 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    Billcarson wrote: »
    My hope is that from next week onwards the weeks get progressively colder and we hit the jackpot first week of feb.

    if the GFS is to be believed we could be waiting till well into February. No end to the amount of love we are getting from the models today. Yep i'm back looking at the models again now that I know this potent cold spell is done for the time being.

    GFSOPUK12_354_2.png

    GFSOPUK12_360_5.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,624 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    No deep freeze, but the GFS might deliver more than just hill snow to some. The overall problem is that heights can't lower over iberia. There are rare ocassions where that is not issue, but generally you can forget about sustained cold if heights remain there. So the Atlantic ends up winning by default. I doubt anything will change by tonight, it won't stop us all looking- those that say they are giving the models a break are fipping:)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,699 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    No deep freeze, but the GFS might deliver more than just hill snow to some. The overall problem is that heights can't lower over iberia. There are rare ocassions where that is not issue, but generally you can forget about sustained cold if heights remain there. So the Atlantic ends up winning by default. I doubt anything will change by tonight, it won't stop us all looking- those that say they are giving the models a break are fipping:)

    I think were done with the eye candy runs for the time being. The GEM is now very similar to the GFS with a mild push generally for much of Europe and the cold is back to being bottled well up into the article circle once again with plunges of cold air kept well away to Russia and Canada/North America.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Rebelbrowser


    Can we agree not to waste page after page about SSWs in future? Clearly the scientific community are a long way off understanding what they actually do. This is just the latest example. From what I can see they are more likely to hinder than help getting snow to Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Can we agree not to waste page after page about SSWs in future? Clearly the scientific community are a long way off understanding what they actually do. This is just the latest example. From what I can see they are more likely to hinder than help getting snow to Ireland.

    I'm not sure it's fair to say that. Looking at this year's SSW, it displaced the vortex to entirely the worst possible place from our point of view and this was modelled well in advance. If it's a proper split vortex with energy displaced away from the Atlantic entirely, it's a total game changer. Unfortunately this one didn't work out that way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,624 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Perhaps i am clutching at straws, but i would like to believe the GFS has it right initially, then loses the plot as it tends to do in FI. It looks promising enough around the 25th, but then the story of the winter so far unfolds. I would almost prefer if we had a strong polar vortex, as at least that way there would be no hope- its the hope that kills you!


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,624 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Can we agree not to waste page after page about SSWs in future? Clearly the scientific community are a long way off understanding what they actually do. This is just the latest example. From what I can see they are more likely to hinder than help getting snow to Ireland.
    The real problem is we did not get a proper split of the SSW. It does not guarantee a favourable outcome, but increases the odds of a more desirable outcome. As soon as it became apparent that it was a displacement, with a section of Vortex over NA, it was very bad news for us. As Sryan correctly predicted we ended up in no mans land. Also we are here to discuss weather prospects, so no harm in speculating about whether it would come off for us. The folly perhaps is putting too much stock in one delivering a big freeze for us. It's best to take GL's approach.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭lostweekend3


    Perhaps i am clutching at straws, but i would like to believe the GFS has it right initially, then loses the plot as it tends to do in FI. It looks promising enough around the 25th, but then the story of the winter so far unfolds. I would almost prefer if we had a strong polar vortex, as at least that way there would be no hope- its the hope that kills you!

    You’re all so pessimistic in here! Keep the faith and don’t take what’s beyond 120 hours on GFS especially seriously. Confident there will be chances of snow and not just “hill snow” over the next few weeks. There is no raging Atlantic even though it is never truly dead.


This discussion has been closed.
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