If all cyclists waited at the red light...

jon1981 · 09-08-2018 9:49am #1

Actually maybe it's a good thing for motorists that not all cyclists obey the red light...would people prefer we went back to this?

Personally I wait at every light but I reckon if every cyclist was to wait at the red light during rush hour it would be a far worse situation for drivers waiting for a larger bunch of cyclists to move off.

Tabnabs · 09-08-2018 9:55am

Yes?

MarkR · 09-08-2018 9:59am

Yes. I find that ambulances take up an awful lot more space.

Wishbone Ash · 09-08-2018 10:01am

jon1981 wrote: »

...would people prefer we went back to this?.

Yes.

jon1981 · 09-08-2018 10:05am

But why?

Some would argue a majority of cyclists break red lights yet I've not heard this to be a reason for any cyclists deaths on the road.

Again I'm not a red light jumper but there are plenty of junctions that could be relaxed abit for cyclists such as pedestrian crossings or left turns on to quieter roads. We need to be far more progressive here

seamus · 09-08-2018 10:06am

Dunno about anyone else, but I see this all the time at rush hour.

PlaneSpeeking · 09-08-2018 10:08am

jon1981 wrote: »

Actually maybe it's a good thing for motorists that not all cyclists obey the red light...would people prefer we went back to this?

Personally I wait at every light but I reckon if every cyclist was to wait at the red light during rush hour it would be a far worse situation for drivers waiting for a larger bunch of cyclists to move off.

Not for pedestrians trying to cross it wouldn't.

Red = Stop. That's it.

jon1981 · 09-08-2018 10:08am

seamus wrote: »

Dunno about anyone else, but I see this all the time at rush hour.

It would be double or triple the number if everyone actually obeyed the light.

amcalester · 09-08-2018 10:09am

jon1981 wrote: »

But why? Again I'm not a red light jumper but there are plenty of junctions that could be relaxed abit for cyclists such as pedestrian crossings or left turns on to quieter roads. We need to be far more progressive here.

That’s a separate argument though. Currently it’s illegal for cyclists to break a red light so for that reason I would prefer a return to the above photo.

Now, if you want to argue the benefits of left on red or the like, then I would agree that in some cases that would make sense but it would have to be clearly signposted when it was allowed.

jon1981 · 09-08-2018 10:09am

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Not for pedestrians trying to cross it wouldn't.

Red = Stop. That's it.

Many other countries permit it. So why not?

Sure lights don't matter to pedestrians either but you don't hear about that from drivers or cyclists.

Alanstrainor · 09-08-2018 10:10am

seamus wrote: »

Dunno about anyone else, but I see this all the time at rush hour.

Exactly. This is already the case, a commute through Dublin at rush hour would see this everywhere. Kevin street and Wexford street junction, through Rathmines, even Harolds Cross is the same.

mloc123 · 09-08-2018 10:16am

seamus wrote: »

Dunno about anyone else, but I see this all the time at rush hour.

Same, cycle along the grand canal any morning and each traffic light is packed with groups of cyclists stopped (including those that insist on jumping to the top despite being so slow :rolleyes:)

RobertFoster · 09-08-2018 10:19am

Was a brown overcoat the yellow hi-vis of the era? I think I'd melt.

jon1981 · 09-08-2018 10:20am

mloc123 wrote: »

Same, cycle along the grand canal any morning and each traffic like is packed with groups of cyclists stopped (including those that insist on jumping to the top despite being so slow :rolleyes:)

Not all junctions are equal but I pass plenty of junctions coming down the Malahide road, Fairview, north strand road and on towards the quays in which many cyclists would ignore the red light... especially when there's grid lock around Connolly station.

Chips Lovell · 09-08-2018 10:41am

Don't know what the big deal is. Cyclists are traffic.

T-Maxx · 09-08-2018 10:41am

Jaysus is it Friday already?

soups05 · 09-08-2018 10:47am

That all depends on the outcome. I personally have no problem with a cyclist breaking a light, using a footpath etc. Do what you gotta do bro, but where I do have a problem is when they do it dangerously.

ie empty footpath, road full of fast moving cars/trucks...off you go my man. footpath full of peds,buggies,small kids..stay on the road. its not safer for the cyclist i know, but its much safer for those using the footpath.

zebra crossings, if you can cycle through at a safe speed and not hit/cause a near heart attack to those crossing no problem. But if your the full speed, barge through while roaring gettouttawayyyy then prepare to be clotheslined.

If your at a road junction, lights are red, traffic crossing in front then stay put ya loon. However if the road is clear then away you go.

BUT, and it's a big but, take personal responsibility for your choice. you choose to jump a red and go out in front of me then you pay the price for any accident that results. I mean really pay the price, I slam on brakes and get rear ended, poor guy behind was not expecting it but he should leave enough room. I hit you and you get hurt, no big claim for you and you pay my damages just like a driver would.

Same for the crazy/lazy peds who will cross ten feet from traffic lights without a second thought. Or who wander into the road from between two parked vans near to but not at a zebra crossing. Why the hell should they get rich for being stupid?

you go buzzing past a red and hit me when am crossing the road then you pay compo just as if you were a car driver. ( assuming am not just crossing like above of course.)

The biggest problem is attitude, of all road users. peds think cars and bikes should stop for them no matter what, some cyclists think they can go the wrong way up a one way street and its grand cos they are only small compared to cars. some drivers think they can force cyclists off the road cos they are more important in their two tons of metal.

There are always gonna be problems with a selection of peds/cyclist/drivers who think they are more important, they will never learn to share the road. That's why I believe in personal responsibility, if am driving I am supposed to watch out for the vulnerable road users. Well how about they also look out for themselves too, it's not that much to ask.

oh, and on another note, why do cyclists not have a big ass stick coming out the side of the bike with something sharp and pointy on it, would stop a lot of those asshole close passes i see on youtube, then just reach down and fold it in for the tight spots. prob not legal but def safer, just a thought.

DavyD_83 · 09-08-2018 10:54am

soups05 wrote: »

That all depends on the outcome. I personally have no problem with a cyclist breaking a light, using a footpath etc. Do what you gotta do bro, but where I do have a problem is when they do it dangerously.

ie empty footpath, road full of fast moving cars/trucks...off you go my man. footpath full of peds,buggies,small kids..stay on the road. its not safer for the cyclist i know, but its much safer for those using the footpath.

zebra crossings, if you can cycle through at a safe speed and not hit/cause a near heart attack to those crossing no problem. But if your the full speed, barge through while roaring gettouttawayyyy then prepare to be clotheslined.

If your at a road junction, lights are red, traffic crossing in front then stay put ya loon. However if the road is clear then away you go.

BUT, and it's a big but, take personal responsibility for your choice. you choose to jump a red and go out in front of me then you pay the price for any accident that results. I mean really pay the price, I slam on brakes and get rear ended, poor guy behind was not expecting it but he should leave enough room. I hit you and you get hurt, no big claim for you and you pay my damages just like a driver would.

Same for the crazy/lazy peds who will cross ten feet from traffic lights without a second thought. Or who wander into the road from between two parked vans near to but not at a zebra crossing. Why the hell should they get rich for being stupid?

you go buzzing past a red and hit me when am crossing the road then you pay compo just as if you were a car driver. ( assuming am not just crossing like above of course.)

The biggest problem is attitude, of all road users. peds think cars and bikes should stop for them no matter what, some cyclists think they can go the wrong way up a one way street and its grand cos they are only small compared to cars. some drivers think they can force cyclists off the road cos they are more important in their two tons of metal.

Not sure if the above is partly tongue in cheek, but I agree completely.
My basic rule is that you should know the rules of the roads, and treat them as guidelines, primarily to understand how traffic is most likely to move.
The ultimate goal is just to not get hit by anything.

But in all cases, if you are breaking the rules, you lose all right of way.
My golden rule: If you are doing something against the rules, you should never hinder the actions of somebody who is acting within the rules

DavyD_83 · 09-08-2018 10:59am

soups05 wrote: »

and on another note, why do cyclists not have a big ass stick coming out the side of the bike with something sharp and pointy on it, would stop a lot of those asshole close passes i see on youtube, then just reach down and fold it in for the tight spots. prob not legal but def safer, just a thought.

If the whole pass at 1.5 thing is actual workable (as some people will adamantly claim), then this is definitely the most effective way to enforce it.
All bikes should just have a bar that sticks out 1.5m (flexible, so it doesn't knock the cyclist over if hit, but with a spiky,(magnetic?,) damaging end that will destroy paint work of any car that hits it.

Alanstrainor · 09-08-2018 11:02am

DavyD_83 wrote: »

If the whole pass at 1.5 thing is actual workable (as some people will adamantly claim), then this is definitely the most effective way to enforce it.
All bikes should just have a bar that sticks out 1.5m (flexible, so it doesn't knock the cyclist over if hit, but with a spiky,(magnetic?,) damaging end that will destroy paint work of any car that hits it.

doozerie · 09-08-2018 11:09am

Arguments in favour of cyclists being allowed to ignore the rules of the road generally boil down to "it's fine for me to do it, 'cos I'm a lovely caring and conscientious person that wouldn't hurt a fly, but by jaysus if someone else subjects me to such behaviour that's out of order" or, in short, "do as I say, not as I do".

It's the very same mindset that many pedestrians and motorists apply to their own behaviour, us humans are all too often fundamentally selfish and self-serving after all. So you get, for example, cyclists/motorists complaining about motorists/cyclists that break red lights (= a reasonable complaint) while defending their own right to do so (= hypocritical), people complaining about the "reckless" cyclists who zoom past them as they walk on the pavement while defending their own right to ride on the pavement "safely" as it suits them, etc.

We can try to delude ourselves that our own social responsibilities are flexible and changeable at our whim, while those of everyone else are aren't, but we really should just grow up and act like the responsible adults we expect everyone else to be.

07Lapierre · 09-08-2018 12:03pm

soups05 wrote: »

That all depends on the outcome. I personally have no problem with a cyclist breaking a light, using a footpath etc. Do what you gotta do bro, but where I do have a problem is when they do it dangerously.

ie empty footpath, road full of fast moving cars/trucks...off you go my man. footpath full of peds,buggies,small kids..stay on the road. its not safer for the cyclist i know, but its much safer for those using the footpath.

zebra crossings, if you can cycle through at a safe speed and not hit/cause a near heart attack to those crossing no problem. But if your the full speed, barge through while roaring gettouttawayyyy then prepare to be clotheslined.

If your at a road junction, lights are red, traffic crossing in front then stay put ya loon. However if the road is clear then away you go.

BUT, and it's a big but, take personal responsibility for your choice. you choose to jump a red and go out in front of me then you pay the price for any accident that results. I mean really pay the price, I slam on brakes and get rear ended, poor guy behind was not expecting it but he should leave enough room. I hit you and you get hurt, no big claim for you and you pay my damages just like a driver would.

Same for the crazy/lazy peds who will cross ten feet from traffic lights without a second thought. Or who wander into the road from between two parked vans near to but not at a zebra crossing. Why the hell should they get rich for being stupid?

you go buzzing past a red and hit me when am crossing the road then you pay compo just as if you were a car driver. ( assuming am not just crossing like above of course.)

The biggest problem is attitude, of all road users. peds think cars and bikes should stop for them no matter what, some cyclists think they can go the wrong way up a one way street and its grand cos they are only small compared to cars. some drivers think they can force cyclists off the road cos they are more important in their two tons of metal.

There are always gonna be problems with a selection of peds/cyclist/drivers who think they are more important, they will never learn to share the road. That's why I believe in personal responsibility, if am driving I am supposed to watch out for the vulnerable road users. Well how about they also look out for themselves too, it's not that much to ask.

oh, and on another note, why do cyclists not have a big ass stick coming out the side of the bike with something sharp and pointy on it, would stop a lot of those asshole close passes i see on youtube, then just reach down and fold it in for the tight spots. prob not legal but def safer, just a thought.

You cant have it both ways....the Law is there for EVERYONE, regardless of your chosen mode of transport. Red means STOP, pavements are for Pedestrians ONLY, etc. etc.

They will learn to share the road if:
1. we had better enforcement of the ROTR (for all road users)
2. Stiffer penalties for rule breakers.

Brian · 09-08-2018 12:33pm

After Hours >>>

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 12:33pm

DavyD_83 wrote: »

If the whole pass at 1.5 thing is actual workable (as some people will adamantly claim), then this is definitely the most effective way to enforce it.
All bikes should just have a bar that sticks out 1.5m (flexible, so it doesn't knock the cyclist over if hit, but with a spiky,(magnetic?,) damaging end that will destroy paint work of any car that hits it.

Guess that was partly the rationale of these things (though not the damage to cars):

I don't think they made much difference, but I don't think anyone rigorously checked their efficacy.

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 12:40pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

You cant have it both ways....the Law is there for EVERYONE, regardless of your chosen mode of transport. Red means STOP, pavements are for Pedestrians ONLY, etc. etc.

They will learn to share the road if:
1. we had better enforcement of the ROTR (for all road users)
2. Stiffer penalties for rule breakers.

I don't like people breaking lights, and I don't like cycling on footpaths. However, I do the latter almost every day, as it's the easiest way to get into my estate from town. I have to go 1-2km out of my way to get in otherwise, and mix it up with cars on four-lane roads, including a large crossroads.

I could just walk the bike though the pedestrian entrance, and I do if there are any pedestrians around at all, but if there aren't I just cycle it. The sight lines are excellent, so I'm literally not bothering anyone, once I dismount when a pedestrian comes along.

Sort of confession, invalidated by self-justification.

C3PO · 09-08-2018 12:58pm

I often wonder whether all the people on here who insist that cyclists should stop for every red light actually do so themselves and in all circumstances? I leave my house at 5.30am every day and cycle into town - should I really stop at every red light on the often deserted road? Should I always stop when turning left and the turn is clear of traffic and pedestrians? I understand that the law states that I should and that I may be prosecuted for not so doing but that is a risk I am willing to take in certain circumstances! Similarly, like most people, I may sometimes drive in excess of the speed limit depending on the conditions.
I am not that far off 60 now and have cycled, motorcycled and driven for 40 years without a major incident or a prosecution and hopefully will continue to do so. I would emphasise that I will never break a light if I will pose a danger to other road users or myself and I would always be conscious of not pissing other people off too. But I sometimes find the attitude of some posters here to be a bit sanctimonious and "holier than thou" when it comes to this issue! I just wonder do they always practice what they preach?

07Lapierre · 09-08-2018 1:03pm

C3PO wrote: »

I often wonder whether all the people on here who insist that cyclists should stop for every red light actually do so themselves and in all circumstances? I leave my house at 5.30am every day and cycle into town - should I really stop at every red light on the often deserted road? Should I always stop when turning left and the turn is clear of traffic and pedestrians? I understand that the law states that I should and that I may be prosecuted for not so doing but that is a risk I am willing to take in certain circumstances! Similarly, like most people, I may sometimes drive in excess of the speed limit depending on the conditions.
I am not that far off 60 now and have cycled, motorcycled and driven for 40 years without a major incident or a prosecution and hopefully will continue to do so. I would emphasise that I will never break a light if I will pose a danger to other road users or myself and I would always be conscious of not pissing other people off too. But I sometimes find the attitude of some posters here to be a bit sanctimonious and "holier than thou" when it comes to this issue! I just wonder do they always practice what they preach?

The answer is No. we all break the law in minor ways all the time. My point is that we do this because the risks (of being caught or causing injury) are so low.

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 1:03pm

I only break red lights that won't change. Lights with an induction loop buried in front of them. I can't think of any others I'd break.

I think the difference for me with footpath cycling (when no pedestrians are around) is that even if the offence and risk are very minor, the inconvenience of stopping is usually small, while the inconvenience of following a route designed for cars and trucks can be very large.

Mind you, the inconvenience of wheeling the bike isn't large either. It's just that if there are literally no pedestrians around, there are good sight lines, and I don't cycle faster than a jogger would run, I don't see what harm I'm doing.

CorMc · 09-08-2018 1:05pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I only break red lights that won't change. Lights with an induction loop buried in front of them. I can't think of any others I'd break.

I think the difference for me with footpath cycling (when no pedestrians are around) is that even if the offence and risk are very minor, the inconvenience of stopping is usually small, while the inconvenience of following a route designed for cars and trucks can be very large.

Mind you, the inconvenience of wheeling the bike isn't large either. It's just that if there are literally no pedestrians around, there are good sight lines, and I don't cycle faster than a jogger would run, I don't see what harm I'm doing.

Isn't it illegal to cycle on the footpath over the age of 16?

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 1:07pm

CorMc wrote: »

Isn't it illegal to cycle on the footpath over the age of 16?

It is, unless there a cycle track or shared space sign. Who's going to enforce it when there's no-one around, and who is being inconvienced?

tomasrojo · 09-08-2018 1:08pm

It's illegal under the age of 16 too. The Gardaí just have an unofficial policy of ignoring it, and the Department of Transport unofficially support ignoring it too.

If all cyclists waited at the red light...

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