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Best calibre for F-class

  • 13-05-2007 9:18pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭


    Hopefully it wont spark an angry debate...........

    Wondering what peoples opinions are on the best
    calibre/round for F-class would be for 600m and possibley beyond.
    Pros/cons of each calibre welcome.

    I know myself someday I would love to go F-Class but not for
    a few more years until I have gained lots of experiance with
    what I have. For the time being it does not hurt to do a bit
    of research and learning while I save the precious cash needed
    to make the transition from rimfire to centre fire.

    I know the 6.5 is popular and I have fired the .308
    with Iron sites but I know personally I would
    like to get something ultra modern and the way of the future rather
    than tried and trusted.

    ~B


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭jaycee


    Hi there,

    From what I saw at the NRAI international Fclass competition , the main calibre of choice seemed to be 6.5x284 , there was also some .308 and at least one person shooting .223.

    This was being shot to international standards so the shortest range was 300 meters with the longest shot on both the team and individual being 600 meters.
    The Individual match was shot on the Saturday and winds were light and the weather was warm and sunny , Sunday was a different cup of tea with strong winds.

    I was amazed at the skill of all the shooters in scoring so many V Bulls in those conditions and could only conclude that an intimate knowledge of how your chosen caliber would behave in wind was vital .

    Having said that , the 6.5x 284 ruled the day .
    Barrel life is pretty short with this round and the competitive life of a match barrel is about 1000 rounds . One guy on the American F-Class team (and a US national champion) claimed that he wouldn't use a barrel for competition that had 700 rounds through it .. he reckoned it was getting a bit erratic at that point.

    Who am I to argue ....?
    Anyone who can repeatedly hit a target at 600 meters in a gale that many would find a challenge at 200 meters in still air has my respect.

    I too would love to shoot F Class , and perhaps some day I might.
    Lots of practice and work on my wind reading skills (Or the lack thereof) , some training from experienced shooters ..and I might do it.

    I'd imagine there will be some pictures of the guns and the shooters ,covered in the next issue of the Digest. Should be interesting to anyone who missed it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭seamusgi4szw


    Check out the NRAI web site, They are holding an open day with experienced shooters to give advice on the 24th June.

    As a result of the many enquiries to the NRAI as to how people can take part in long range shooting and in particular F-Class it has been decided by the NRAI to hold an Open day on the 24 June 2007 at 10.45am. This shoot is for non members and members alike the entry fee will be 10 euro with 2 + 15 rounds on each distance 500 and 600 yards. Members of the Republic of Ireland rifle team will be on hand to help. So if you would to try Target Rifle or F-Class at long range why not come along to the MNSCI ranges.
    For more on this email David at nraireland@gmail.com

    F class TR is.308 or .223 and is a great starting point, I shot a trg22 in both the league and the international, great crack and the other competitors are really class, very helpfull, they do want to bring you on and improve your skills.
    Join in.
    Seamus Keenan


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    Check out the NRAI web site, They are holding an open day with experienced shooters to give advice on the 24th June.

    As a result of the many enquiries to the NRAI as to how people can take part in long range shooting and in particular F-Class it has been decided by the NRAI to hold an Open day on the 24 June 2007 at 10.45am. This shoot is for non members and members alike the entry fee will be 10 euro with 2 + 15 rounds on each distance 500 and 600 yards. Members of the Republic of Ireland rifle team will be on hand to help. So if you would to try Target Rifle or F-Class at long range why not come along to the MNSCI ranges.
    For more on this email David at nraireland@gmail.com

    F class TR is.308 or .223 and is a great starting point, I shot a trg22 in both the league and the international, great crack and the other competitors are really class, very helpfull, they do want to bring you on and improve your skills.
    Join in.
    Seamus Keenan

    Thanks for the info Seamus, will definitely be there.

    What are the events using the .223, what distance etc?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    Check out the NRAI web site, They are holding an open day with experienced shooters to give advice on the 24th June.
    Seamus Keenan

    Excellent News! I could be begging Vegeta for a lift that day.
    With the Cost involved and the thoughts of needing to change barrels
    in the big stuff after a 1000's rounds or so its kinda scary.
    You would want to know exactly what you want before you buy.
    It would also be nice to get advice and have access to people
    that could coach you.

    EDIT: To remove comments about the The NRAI website. I was wrong about
    the site. The Links work when using Internet Explorer thanks Vegeta for pointing
    that out. I had been using Firefox web browser and it did not display the page correctly.
    Having a few issues with my boards.ie account at the moment so hopefully I can save
    this post.

    ~B


  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭seamusgi4szw


    Vegeta wrote:
    Thanks for the info Seamus, will definitely be there.

    What are the events using the .223, what distance etc?
    Hi Veg,
    Check out the results on the nrai site, Trudy Anderson from Canada was shooting a .223 ( mind u, a custom gun,,,,) and she beat her three team members in the individual and I was marking their team shoot, and she beat them again in it.
    How to make friends and influence people, eh, beat your mates 6.5 284's with a .223. :confused:
    On the open day the distance's are 500 and 600 and a .223 can do that on a calm day. but your score that day dosn't matter at all, you are there to learn and enjoy, you might be pleasantly surprised. Anyway, do what I done when I started, just stand beside someone and admire his gun out loud, grovel a little and you will be offered a shot or five, it works, I used to go down the line shooting everyone else's guns and their ammo, ha ha
    I can't go that day but hope to see you on the line shortly.
    Seamus


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    Jesus .223 to 600 yards is super impressive. I know its probably a hand load and a custom rifle but still all the same.

    Its very interesting i have been reading up on this for the morning and still cant decide on the best calibre

    6.5-284 seems good but has a short barrell life and I would probably need a custom rifle for that type of calibre. This may be too expensive for me

    Good old reliable .308 is a common enough calibre so there are plenty of rifles available (whether these would be good enough is another thing)

    Then there's the .338 Lapua (my personal favourite) which is pretty new, not many rifles chambered for it (maybe that's saying something in itself) and will probably be expensive to run. Then there's the recoil

    I know the Midlands are going to be building a 1000 yard or meter range so if I do get in to this I'd want a rifle capable of shooting out to that distance.

    Decisions...decisions. Well I'll stick with the .223 for now and if my skills surpass the rifle then I will trade up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭jaycee


    Vegeta wrote:
    Jesus .223 to 600 yards is super impressive. I know its probably a hand load and a custom rifle but still all the same.

    Its very interesting i have been reading up on this for the morning and still cant decide on the best calibre

    6.5-284 seems good but has a short barrell life and I would probably need a custom rifle for that type of calibre. This may be too expensive for me

    Pretty much any of the rifles used for this are custom jobs...
    Good old reliable .308 is a common enough calibre so there are plenty of rifles available (whether these would be good enough is another thing)

    I'd imagine you will be looking at the high end of off the shelf rifles , and putting a custom barrel on the original action (Which will probably need some work too) A lot of the stuff I saw had either "Panda" , "Quadlite" or "quadlock " actions depending on the calibre. Look them up , they are as cheap as chips...."Not"

    http://www.kinneman.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=239

    Kelbly%20Stolle%20PANDA.jpg
    Or ...
    bat%208.5inch.JPG
    (A BAT action )
    Then there's the .338 Lapua (my personal favourite) which is pretty new, not many rifles chambered for it (maybe that's saying something in itself) and will probably be expensive to run. Then there's the recoil

    338 would probably be a bit of a beast from a recoil point of view, the trend seems to be towards 308 and lower for this stuff. Much bigger than that and the constant practice starts to beat you up.
    I know the Midlands are going to be building a 1000 yard or meter range so if I do get in to this I'd want a rifle capable of shooting out to that distance.

    The 6mm stuff is pretty popular for 1000m shooting and seems to do well, the real trick is being consistant and reading the wind and mirage.
    Decisions...decisions. Well I'll stick with the .223 for now and if my skills surpass the rifle then I will trade up.

    Same here .. , but that could take a long time in my case. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    Are there any competitions using un-modified production rifles.

    I'm guessing the AI and Sako TRG-42 rifles would feature strongly


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭jaycee


    I did see a TRG22 at the competition.. (308)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    The SAKO TRG22 in Duffy's Looks pretty cool and
    afordable at 2 and half grand if you were to save or take a loan out.
    (Not even gonna think about a scope price though)

    Anyone care to bounce some costs/prices around the thread
    to give us a rough idea what a rough entry level costs would be ?

    Just how much money are we talking about to get an entry level
    Rifle that is good for 600m. (One where you can change the barrel
    without having to go through total Hell with Irish Laws)

    It would be a shame to spend a load of cash on a rifle only
    to find it would not be good enough to compete to win.

    ~B


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭.243


    bullets wrote:
    The SAKO TRG22 in Duffy's Looks pretty cool and
    afordable at 2 and half grand if you were to save or take a loan out.
    (Not even gonna think about a scope price though)

    Anyone care to bounce some costs/prices around the thread
    to give us a rough idea what a rough entry level costs would be ?

    Just how much money are we talking about to get an entry level
    Rifle that is good for 600m. (One where you can change the barrel
    without having to go through total Hell with Irish Laws)

    It would be a shame to spend a load of cash on a rifle only
    to find it would not be good enough to compete to win.

    ~B

    :eek: for that cash you could build a serious custom weapon


  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭seamusgi4szw


    Trg22 .308 @€;2500,
    AI 6.5 55 @ €4400,
    AI 6.5 284 €4600,
    s/h, musgrave action, fulton gun in 6.5 284 €2500
    s/h rpa quadlock, hps stock, 6.5 284 125 rounds shot, spare 7mm barrell and bolt, 80% shot €3600
    New Barnard action, Mastin stock, 32" 6.5 284 €4000

    A few pricesI have found for suitable firearms, 6.5 284 and or 7mm are the preferred caliber in use, 6.5 284 1200 rounds, 7mm 700 rounds and you probably need a new barrell, especially for a comp'. On the USA team site they don't recommend you come to the team selection for the 2008 worlds with more than 500 rounds on the barrell and they shoot mostly 6.5 284.
    .308 is ok for 300/500/600 yds and then they die, and you can really only shoot F-TR class. Good place to start though but if buying a new .308, a s/h 6.5 284 is a better firearm and just jump of the deep end, someone will catch ya.:eek:

    Nightforce 8-32 x 50 is a popoular scope @ €1500 but a leupold 8-22 x 42 @ €600 of ebay would do the job. Lots of scopes about.
    In mirage I have to turn the scope way down anyway.
    Get to the open day before spending money, ask lots of questions and then save up, have two birthdays but buy a 6.5 284, I will be buying one before the weeks out.

    Cheers and beers
    Seamus


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    Just mailed Border Barrels there and to my surprise the .338 is not a legal F-Class caliber apparently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    Vegeta wrote:
    Just mailed Border Barrels there and to my surprise the .338 is not a legal F-Class caliber apparently.

    Did they tell you why its not allowed?


    ~B


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    bullets wrote:
    Did they tell you why its not allowed?


    ~B

    F-Class only allows up to 8mm for most competitions whereas any calibre can be used in club events


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭dbar


    Alright Lads, here is my 2 pence worth,
    I started looking at F class about a year ago I say looking
    because I dont really have time to go into it in a big way however I
    started the ball rolling on research on rifle and calibre with limited funding:
    Here are my findings:

    1) It became apparent pretty quickly that unless you are comfortable with the reloading scene
    there is no point going outside the "standard" calibres so I am going to start in the factory sporter class

    2) You need the bullet to remain supersonic (for stability reasons) all the way to the target so again to start I will limit my shooting to 600.

    3) I decided on 6.5x55 as it meets all the above and there is excellent lapua target ammo available.

    4) I opted for a slightly different rifle, a swedish Mauser with tight chamber and barrell dimensions. (Remember these were all hand built with quality components)
    I am getting a few bits done to it to make it more suitable for f class, but within the limits of factory sporter.

    I have done a lot of background research that I wont bore you with, twist rates,
    bullet weights available(or length to be technically correct). Eventually I hope to have two rifles for 0-600
    and 600-1000.

    Looking down the firing line at the last F class shoot in the midlands there is some serious looking rifles, but at serious cost as well.
    Dont get me wrong, Shooting is my hobby and I would have no issue shelling out for something I wanted (when funds allow)
    but for a kickoff I am trying to keep the costs down.
    F class TR is also something I am looking at, looks like a good option.
    By the way, Target sports have run articles on all the custom buliders available in the UK over the last couple of issues. Very Interesting.
    A callum Ferguson for over 10 K Stg anyone?
    It sounds like that F class is a significant bulk of their work.
    Anyway the open day sounds good, hopefully I will make it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    Thanks for the info dbar, what kind of money you talking about spending on the rifle alone and work on the rifle, or is that too personal a question

    My brother priced some .338 Lapua rounds yesterday, 277 ponds sterling for 100. Reloading all the way thank you very much


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭BryanL


    i for one wouldn't be bored by twist rate an weight/ length discussions
    Bryan


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    I second that


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭dbar


    The rifle came in about 900 Euro. Scope leupold 5-25X56 700 Euro from the states.
    Work on rifle - 500 Euro. Not too bad for an entry level.
    I wont comment on twist rate and bullet weight, up to yourself. What I will say is if you were into say photography, would you not consider the technical specs important?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    dbar wrote:
    The rifle came in about 900 Euro. Scope leupold 5-25X56 700 Euro from the states.
    Work on rifle - 500 Euro. Not too bad for an entry level.
    I wont comment on twist rate and bullet weight, up to yourself. What I will say is if you were into say photography, would you not consider the technical specs important?

    That's achieveable

    No I agree about the details and technical specs but where can i learn about them

    I am aware that obviously you use a heavy long bullet with a relatively fast twist rate 1 in 8, 9 or 10 to keep the bullet stable in the air but that's about it.

    That's why 6.5-284 is so popular, decent BC and long bullets


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭dbar


    Picked up a bit on articles, but mostly from a book called "understanding firearms ballistics" by robert rinkner. It can be very technical in places but also gives a good overall understanding of pretty much everything that happens from the time you pull the trigger to the time the bullet hits the target. The barrell harmonics section is very interesting as well.
    Picked it up off the internet (amazon).


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    dbar wrote:
    By the way, Target sports have run articles on all the custom buliders available in the UK over the last couple of issues. Very Interesting.
    And if you don't have a subscription, try here:
    http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweekarchive.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    dbar wrote:
    Picked up a bit on articles, but mostly from a book called "understanding firearms ballistics" by robert rinkner.

    Cool nice info guys,
    I just ordered me one of them along with another book the deals with
    benchrest "The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy" (out of stock though)

    My credit card is getting hit pretty bad this month with too many
    impulse buys. :-(

    ~B


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭jaycee


    Sparks wrote:
    And if you don't have a subscription, try here:
    http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweekarchive.html


    Also...as a matter of interest ....

    This guy was one of the US F-Class rifle team shooting at the recent NRAI International .

    http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek028.html

    (He was beaten by 3 Irish shooters in the individual match ... ) :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    He's 73 Years of Age! Hope my eyes are as good as his
    and my hands dont shake if I make it to that age.

    One thing I noticed about F-Class was that quite a lot of the people
    shooting were Older people as in Possibly retired from work or
    having reached an age where they have no home-loans etc so are
    comfortable. (and Not to worried about money ;) )

    I know there were younger people there too but it was kinda dominated by
    an older age group. One of the Irish team looked very young.

    ~B


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭jaycee


    I wouldn't think money is a major concern for those people, for example
    Bob Mead , who also took part in that shoot is part of the Sierra team.

    That's the team sponsored by Sierra Bullets.
    http://www.sierrabullets.com/

    I'd imagine he doesn't have to buy a lot of ammo .. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    dbar wrote:
    Picked up a bit on articles, but mostly from a book called "understanding firearms ballistics" by robert rinkner. I

    This Just arrived in my Lap today (Got it sent to work :) )
    I am drooling over this. it is like the Holy Grail of firearms books.
    Very detailed and some of it will probably go right over my head.
    I will proabably need to have the book in one hand and google search
    in the other.

    ~B


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭dbar


    Glad you like it...
    You can skip right over the maths stuff, doesnt take from the explanations.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭bullets


    Check out the NRAI web site, They are holding an open day with experienced shooters to give advice on the 24th June.

    As a result of the many enquiries to the NRAI as to how people can take part in long range shooting and in particular F-Class it has been decided by the NRAI to hold an Open day on the 24 June 2007 at 10.45am. This shoot is for non members and members alike the entry fee will be 10 euro with 2 + 15 rounds on each distance 500 and 600 yards. Members of the Republic of Ireland rifle team will be on hand to help. So if you would to try Target Rifle or F-Class at long range why not come along to the MNSCI ranges.
    For more on this email David at nraireland@gmail.com

    I must not of read this post correctly.
    I made enquires about the open day and was told just bring
    myself and my gun.

    From Reading the above it led me to believe that it is an open day
    where Non-Fclass people or non members could pay 10 Euro and get a few
    shots of the big guns and 500 and 600 yards.
    (ie If you had an interest in going F-Class you could try before you buy idea
    and get advise etc about the Equipment costs........)
    (Can someone confirm if this is the case. Hopefully it is)

    When very very briefly talking to David the weekend he more or less said
    nope! Unlikely that the F-class guys would be letting people shoot their
    rifles unless they may be coming very close to changing a barrell
    or the likes.

    After re-reading the original text I am guessing now its NOT an
    open day where people can come along and pay to shoot at 600m

    but

    It is an open day where IF people have their OWN rifles capable of fireing out
    that distance they can arrive being a non-member with their
    own equipment and enter the shoot for a fee ???

    Anyone got any more details on the day. Reason I am posting is that
    some poeple may Travel to the day specifically thinking that its
    a pay and shoot day wher you can pay and use club/members equipment.

    It would be cool if Midlands was able to get a Club F-Class rifle
    specifically for use in giving people an introduction to F-Class.
    Rather than having people rely on begging and pleading with
    almost strangers fireing at the range in the hopes they will offer
    a few shots of their cool toys!
    (Which some do thankfully!!! having tried a few rounds of 6.5 the weekend
    but only at 100m I was drooling)

    With the New Member fees gone
    up since last year and the annual fees going up I am guessing they
    are buying some new stuff or doing some upgrades.

    ~B


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