College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

cgcsb · 01-02-2019 1:04pm

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, but what if they were a wheelchair user living in Mountjoy and they have to get to work in James hospital at 10 to 7 on a Sunday morning?!

The scenarios people fabricate as proof that something can't work...

What about a deaf and blind muslim lesbian in a wheelchair who has no sense of touch taste or smell who starts work at 05:35 3km away??? :pac:

cgcsb · 01-02-2019 1:08pm

The day the Pope visited was such a joy to cycle around Dublin. No cars hogging the streets, it was a dream, should be every Sunday. Obviously buses should be allowed to run through though, and the blind,deaf, muslim lesbian in her adapted car who works at the hospital at 5 who the car enthusiasts here wouldn't spare a thought for when considering any other topic of course, goes without saying.

CatInABox · 30-04-2019 5:33pm

DCC are collecting more information about the traffic changes that will follow on from the College Green Plaza project, but are not planning on making any changes to the plaza itself. They seem to be quite nonplussed about how ABP rejected their first application, which in fairness, they're not the only ones. Seemed a bizarre decision to me, so hopefully with more modelling ABP will approve it.

See here.

cgcsb · 30-04-2019 10:29pm

So they're going to reroute buses on Sundays in July, surely that means making the changes to Gratran Bridge and Parliament st now then.

AlekSmart · 01-05-2019 7:04pm

CatInABox wrote: »

DCC are collecting more information about the traffic changes that will follow on from the College Green Plaza project, but are not planning on making any changes to the plaza itself. They seem to be quite nonplussed about how ABP rejected their first application, which in fairness, they're not the only ones. Seemed a bizarre decision to me, so hopefully with more modelling ABP will approve it.

See here.

Equally bizzarre is the statement by DCC's Brendan O Brien.....

Mr O’Brien said he was surprised the board refused the plaza on the grounds of excessive numbers of buses being moved onto the quays.

“The disappointing thing was that the reasons given for the refusal, around the bus fleet and so on, was not actually something we would have anticipated was the particular issue.”

Let's be honest...If this statement were to be made by any of us......"interested amateurs" it would be acceptable and believable.

However,Mr O'Brien is Dublin City Councils,Head of Traffic Management,a position of some note in the Council,and one which by it's very description,implies that the holder has a level of Traffic Management Comprehension significantly beyond the rest of the great unwashed.

Are we now to take from this,an admission by DCC that it's Head of Traffic Management is actually just chancin' his arm,like the rest of us ?

Looking at some of the Traffic Management Decisions taken by DCC,this may appear to actually be true :eek:

Jarrett Walker observed that Dublins Buses spent more time obstructing each other,than being obstructed by other traffic,which is generally true,save when our Civic Taxi Fleet take over that onerous task....was Jarrett wrong,I ask ??

Eric Cartman · 01-05-2019 7:16pm

Neworder79 wrote: »

One bad suburban example, obviously neglected by council, should that set the bar on our vision?

We have an abundance of underground carparks without issue, a well designed and managed cycle way should not be a challenge. It could include modern bike parking station like the Netherlands, and link the plaza to proposed Tara St public transport interchange with some vision.

https://youtu.be/C4INWKWlPkk?t=14

I've used many busy urban underpass tunnels at Elephant and Castle London, Chicago, Australia and on some of our greenways without issue...but if a cycle underpass scares us no wonder we cant build a metro.

with dublins heroin problem, any space like that becomes a no go area real quick and would need 24/7 dedicated teams of gardai to keep it viable.

Spanish Eyes · 01-05-2019 7:25pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

with dublins heroin problem, any space like that becomes a no go area real quick and would need 24/7 dedicated teams of gardai to keep it viable.

It is not only the druggies, it is scumbaggery in general. Difficult enough to contain their antics out in the open.

Such a sad indictment on our City planners and law enforcement. But there we are.

Stephen15 · 01-05-2019 9:49pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

with dublins heroin problem, any space like that becomes a no go area real quick and would need 24/7 dedicated teams of gardai to keep it viable.

Junkies are prevalent in almost every European city it's not a problem exclusive to Dublin by any means at all. Subways have not worked in the past due to their poor upkeep, poor acess and poor monitoring resulting in poor usage. If it was well maintained meaning kept free of urine, litter including drug paraphernalia and graffiti aswell as being monitored by CCTV. It could be viable just like any other public space.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-05-2019 9:53pm

With our so called "law enforcement" and judiciary sadly there are some things we can not have.

We make choices as a society.

Anto and Jacinta's interest come first.

cgcsb · 02-05-2019 12:02am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

with dublins heroin problem, any space like that becomes a no go area real quick and would need 24/7 dedicated teams of gardai to keep it viable.

The picture is from Amsterdam, Europe's capital of drug additiction. Have you been? The shear volume of junkies talking to walls and what have you is something to marvel at. They admit it's a problem and deal with it though.

Kermit.de.frog · 02-05-2019 12:34am

I don't think the problem is junkies per se.

Rather we have a structural problem in the governance of the country and this manifests itself in bad planning, a lack of police protection and a mindless judiciary.

We don't even have transport police.

And yet we are told we will have a barrier free underground. Doesn't take long to understand why that would be a mistake particularly in the city centre.

Will they listen, probably not. Welcome to the red Luas line...underground.

It's all predictable but they don't care.

Qrt · 02-05-2019 12:43am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I don't think the problem is junkies per se.

Rather we have a structural problem in the governance of the country and this manifests itself in bad planning, a lack of police protection and a mindless judiciary.

We don't even have transport police.

And yet we are told we will have a barrier free underground. Doesn't take long to understand why that would be a mistake particularly in the city centre.

Will they listen, probably not. Welcome to the red Luas line...underground.

It's all predictable but they don't care.

To be fair, the people who think the red line is some sort of death tram are the same ones who give out about the youth being “too sensitive”.

Eric Cartman · 02-05-2019 2:16pm

Qrt wrote: »

To be fair, the people who think the red line is some sort of death tram are the same ones who give out about the youth being “too sensitive”.

The red line is pretty awful especially at night though.

Muahahaha · 02-05-2019 4:23pm

Just on tunnels/underground walkways I've noticed in Germany and eastern Europe they will often have a row of shops like newsagents, small bakeries, etc along them. By having shopkeepers there all day it seems to help solve the problem of junkies/graffitti etc.

L1011 · 02-05-2019 4:47pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just on tunnels/underground walkways I've noticed in Germany and eastern Europe they will often have a row of shops like newsagents, small bakeries, etc along them. By having shopkeepers there all day it seems to help solve the problem of junkies/graffitti etc.

If the shops fail it can be even dodgier, e.g. the underpasses in Riga near the international bus 'terminal' have some arms of empty shops and they're extremely grim

Kermit.de.frog · 03-05-2019 11:47pm

We don't need pedestrian underpasses. They are also magnets for trouble.

Best just not to build them.

That's all cities, not only Dublin.

celtcia · 04-05-2019 12:14pm

The Green Party have appeared to sense what's up and are making Suffolk st more pedestrian friendly street prior to the next plaza iteration which could be dependant on Suffolk st.

Make no mistake the two are connected unless a metro is in place or two...

This is not going to end any time soon.

Hurrache · 07-05-2019 10:30am

celtcia wrote: »

The Green Party have appeared to sense what's up and are making Suffolk st more pedestrian friendly street prior to the next plaza iteration which could be dependant on Suffolk st.

How are the Green Party doing this?

Neworder79 · 07-05-2019 1:00pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We don't need pedestrian underpasses. They are also magnets for trouble.

Best just not to build them.

That's all cities, not only Dublin.

Yes Old St in London is the pits with its flower shops, cafes, posh supermarket not to mention office workers, the worst!

Kermit.de.frog · 07-05-2019 4:10pm

Neworder79 wrote: »

Yes Old St in London is the pits with its flower shops, cafes, posh supermarket not to mention office workers, the worst!

London has a police force. We don't.

There is no where within the canals you could put an under pass that won't be in a mess within weeks. Literally no where.

We have made a societal choice that there are no consequences for anything especially when it comes to behaviour in the public realm.

Unless we have proper visible policing and a justice system obliged to hand out fines and other punishments then we are going nowhere.

Marcusm · 09-05-2019 10:29pm

Neworder79 wrote: »

Yes Old St in London is the pits with its flower shops, cafes, posh supermarket not to mention office workers, the worst!

You say Old St, I give you E&C where they were filled in 3 years ago. The underpasses work at Okd St roundabout because of the shops and station access. Elsewhere, with little than pedestrian traffic they tend to become hotspots for nuisance.

XPS_Zero · 09-05-2019 11:03pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

London has a police force. We don't.

There is no where within the canals you could put an under pass that won't be in a mess within weeks. Literally no where.

We have made a societal choice that there are no consequences for anything especially when it comes to behaviour in the public realm.

Unless we have proper visible policing and a justice system obliged to hand out fines and other punishments then we are going nowhere.

We do have a police force, the problem is it's not run very well. Far too many officers are not even trained in tactical driving, they literally can't drive with blue lights and sirens on. They've been skimping on Garda facilities for years, they'd not even replace the early 2000s high speed cars until about 2 years ago in some cases, the new anti-OC unit had to wait nearly a year for their rifles, some of the stuff I've seen is farcical.

Then you have what happens when people are arrested.

We have no habitual offender law, so you can clock up 40+ convictions and still keep getting suspended sentences and bail, rather than what you ought to get (for violent crimes over and over) IMO: 25-life.

Even for the most extreme crime of all, murder, there is no life meaning life, so you can be paroled within about a decade as your victim turns to dust in a box in the ground - that thought makes me so angry. There is a guy living near me, he murdered one guy in 2015, and tried to murder another (both b y stabbing) and he's out now because he wasn't even charged with murder but manslaughter...which is meant to be when you had no intention to kill...he STABBED THEM IN THE TORSO...but he apparently didn't intend to kill them, and he's out...

If this was not bad enough, we don't have (except for juveniles) any serious rehabilitation or restorative justice thing either, it might be some comfort if we didn't throw the book at people for the more violent crimes but at least we were good at rehab...nope...Ireland manages to f---k up on BOTH fronts at the same time. Meanwhile I've seen custodial sentences for people growing marajuna, and even saw a case where a 17 year old got 6 months for consensual sex with his 16yo gf because the dad complained, we all saw, until the new system for fines came in, people go to jail for refusing to pay a subscription to RTE...look at the acid attack, I saw people calling for 20 years for this kind of crime...that law already exists!! You can get anything up to life for assault causing serious harm (what used to be called GBH) but it never gets imposed, the already pretty stupid in many areas age of consent law at least has one good provision in that it treats under and over 15 different, if you have sex with an under 15 you can get life...again never happens...ever...it's a systemic problem.

If you commit a violent crime because of drugs you should be sent to some kind of rehab centre after you serve your prison sentence where there is mandatory detox and you don't get out until x time after recovery, how ever long it takes.

We don't need to import US scams like zero tolerance and start doing stop n frisks without probable cause making the population start hating the cops, all we need is a proper justice system that punishes and rehabilitates, where there are actual CONSEQUENCES for doing something criminal, atm we don't have that.

Muahahaha · 13-05-2019 2:16pm

Would largely agree with that XPS, when you've lads walking around with 50+ convictions it is clear the justice system is broken. Imagine the cost to the state to arrest, detain and question a person 50+ times, process their file in the DPP 50+ times and then they get 50+ solicitors to defend them for the 50+ court appearances where the judge and staff has to be paid too. If you allowed €5k per conviction a persistent offender soon costs the state over €250k and thats not even including the costs of the victims who are out of work or out of pocket due to violent crimes and thefts.

It would actually cheaper to lock them up but then theres no space because they never built Thornton Hall. Just build the dam thing and sell Mountjoy, it is prime city centre land. But instead of building Thornton Hall now they're talking about giving away that land for free to developers for housing, you couldnt make it up.

dfx- · 13-05-2019 2:25pm

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

DCC have offered no viable alternative route for the huge volume of busses reliant on College Green. That's why ABP refused them. Some of these busses (13, 40, 27) incidentally serving areas without alternative public transport options like North and West Clondalkin, Tallaght etc. The only plan seems to be to ignore the thousands who will be negatively impacted, and funnel the routes down the narrow, traffic choked quays, along with all the other traffic that has been, and will be displaced by College Green ban.

College Green/Dame St was closed off last week at 3pm due to a breakdown/blockage at College Green. Madness ensues sending buses around onto the Quays.

Thankfully it was only an hour or two, but closing the main artery is not and has never been a good idea.

CatInABox · 13-05-2019 11:40pm

dfx- wrote: »

College Green/Dame St was closed off last week at 3pm due to a breakdown/blockage at College Green. Madness ensues sending buses around onto the Quays.

Thankfully it was only an hour or two, but closing the main artery is not and has never been a good idea.

I mean, there's a difference between an sudden, unplanned diversion, and a planned, permanent diversion.

cgcsb · 14-05-2019 9:04am

dfx- wrote: »

College Green/Dame St was closed off last week at 3pm due to a breakdown/blockage at College Green. Madness ensues sending buses around onto the Quays.

Thankfully it was only an hour or two, but closing the main artery is not and has never been a good idea.

Is this a serious post or is it tongue in cheek?

monument · 14-05-2019 11:10am

dfx- wrote: »

College Green/Dame St was closed off last week at 3pm due to a breakdown/blockage at College Green. Madness ensues sending buses around onto the Quays.

Thankfully it was only an hour or two, but closing the main artery is not and has never been a good idea.

Get cars back on Grafton Street now!

cgcsb · 04-06-2019 12:20pm

All quiet on this. The supposed events in July haven't been mentioned. No work done on the bus diversions required. Struggling to understand what use DCC is right now.

Last Stop · 05-06-2019 10:14pm

Why cant we move all the traffic to the BOI side and move the bus stops further down Dame St??? This would create a large enough plaza without completely shutting down the main artery of the city.
Remember the fire station is on Pearse st. What would happen in the event of a fire on Dame St. if College green was fully pedestrianised? I know people will say we’ll manage but to me this plan while ideal on paper, does not take into account the reality of the situation. If traffic was allowed on one side and moved more freely, it would be a far nicer place. Long term I can see Lucan Luas joining the Green Line here and creating an integrated transport network, not possible if CG is fully closed.
An Bord Pleanala identified some serious flaws with the current proposal and instead of trying to address these issues, DCC appear to have gone on the defensive and attempted to prove ABP wrong.

Eric Cartman · 05-06-2019 10:17pm

monument wrote: »

Get cars back on Grafton Street now!

I would welcome this outside of the 9-5 working hours. the city needs to stop just looking at hurting car drivers (and by extension commercial drivers) as a means to make people more green.

College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

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