The Business of Cinema in Dublin

TheFoot · 25-02-2003 1:27pm #1

I'm from out of town, but am interested in getting a greater understanding of how the cinema industry works here in Dublin. Others have told me that there used to be many more cinemas in Dublin, including the Carlton, the Ambassador, the Cameo, etc. These were apparently closed down. I understand that there are several new mega-plexes in the suburbs.

Compared to Canada, the attendance in the remaining theatres is extraordinary. The only times films sell-out in Canada is for highly-anticipated showings on opening weekends.

Why, then, aren't there more cinemas downtown? Has all the traffic moved out to Liffey Valley and the like? It seems to me that a new movie theatre in the centre of the city would be a license to print money. Thanks. DB.

http://www.darrenbarefoot.com

Hugs-E · 25-02-2003 2:52pm

I think there is already enough cinemas in town, with the UGC, Savoy. If the demand was there I'm sure somebody would have built one already.

In the suburbs you have the UCI in Tallaght, Coolock and Blanchardstown. The Ster Century in Clondalkin/Lucan. Theres cinemas in Dun Laoghaire and Bray and many more around so people don't have to go into town to see a movie

Bard · 25-02-2003 2:57pm

Well yeah the Carlton has closed down and the Ambassador is now more a concert venue than a cinema, but Dublin still has... *deep breath*...

The Classic, Bray
The IMC, Dún Laoighaire
The IFC, Temple Bar
The Ormonde, Stillorgan
The Omniplex, Santry
The Savoy, O'Connell Street
The Screen, D'Olier St.
The Stella, Rathmines
The Ster Century (12 screens, including the biggest one in Europe), Liffey Valley complex, Lucan
UCI Cinemas in Blanchardstown, Coolock and Tallaght
UGC (used to be Virgin Cinema) at the Parnell Centre, Parnell Street

and some other small ones...

... is that not enough?

shotamoose · 25-02-2003 3:37pm

I think the point he was making is why aren't there more in 'downtown' Dublin? Which is a valid one, imho. Would I be right in saying there's no mainstream cinema (ie excluding the IFC) south of the river before you get to Harold's Cross?

Hugs-E · 25-02-2003 3:40pm

The Screen in D'olier Street / Townsend Street

TheFoot · 25-02-2003 3:52pm

Take a look at downtown first-run cinemas:

The Screen, D'Olier St.
UGC
The Savoy, O'Connell Street

That's 19 screens to satisfy a large population that, on average, watches a lot of movies. Furthermore, as I indicated in another thread, the UGC and the Savoy show the same films. So, in reality, there are about 8-10 first-run films on in the centre of the city. These films regularly sell out. Furthermore, my experience in other countries indicates that you don't need regular sell-outs to make a cinema profitable.

With a new cinema you could offer the consumer more choice, better screens, a cleaner theatre and a shorter drive. DB.

Johnmb · 25-02-2003 3:57pm

Don't forget that this is not just a case of people not opening up new cinemas due to start-up costs etc. There were lots of other cinemas in town when I was younger. They already had the equipment (i.e. projectors, screens, etc.) yet they still closed down. It's not as straight forward as sold-out movies = demand for more cinemas, otherwise all those cinemas would still be open. Bare in mind that it wasn't just the small cinemas that closed, the Adelphi and Carlton were rivals to the Savoy in their day, yet they still eventually closed down.

Mr E · 25-02-2003 4:08pm

I'm really interested to know how cinemas actually work.

I assume movies are rented by cinemas (not bought). How much it cost? Who do you rent from? Would I be right in saying that the rental cost of a movie is proportionate to the capacity of the screen its shown in?
What percentage of actual box office takings are cinemas entitled to (if any?). I've heard that cinemas make the bulk of their money from popcorn etc. Is this true?

Just curious.... I'd love to open a cinema of my own one day....

- Dave.

hussey · 25-02-2003 4:18pm

well I not 100% sure

but as far as I know the cinema must pay the film company
for every customer

hence the more customers teh more money a film makes

and yes a cinema will make a healthy profit margin on food

but dont forget they have alot of over heads

... they might not be a rich as you think
last year or the year before they scrapped the idea of 10 screen cineama in swords (near the pavilion) as it was just not viable

Victor · 25-02-2003 4:19pm

Part of the problem was the oligopoly where the Savoy, Carlton, Screen (O'Connell Bridge and D'Olier St.) were all owned by the same company (not sure about the Lighthouse and Ambassador). Once UCI started eating into their marketshare, they consolidated. Of course when the boom came they were left in an awkward position with the disused sites needing big investment which could just as easily go into other uses.

These days the main problem is that the cinemas are competing with other uses, mainly retail and commercial, for sites. Redevelopment at the ILAC and the Carlton site may bring new cinemas.

Other cinemas were at The Lighthouse and ???? (Abbey Street) Penney's (Royal?) and Ulster Bank on O'Connell Street, Stephen's Green (Green), Cabra (now a bingo hall), Crumlin (now a bingo hall?), Fairview (now a tile shop), Whitehall (now a bingo hall), Buckingham Street (became a bingo hall, now an office block), Pearse Street (TCD have bought it), Glenageary. I suspect the Ice Rinks that had been in Dolphin's Barn and Phibsboro were originally cinemas. I suspect there had been cinemas in Finglas and Fairview. Logic would indicate one in Ringsend and Ballyfermot.

Cork underwent a similar rationalisation in the 1980s and then growth through the 1990s.

The Classic, Bray

The Classic is in Harolds Cross, The Royal is in Bray.

pickarooney · 25-02-2003 4:19pm

I reckon the advent of video in the 80s not only killed the radio star, but made a lot of the city-centre cinemas unprofitable, but the novelty eventually wore off and there was a huge increase in attendances throughout the 90s, to the extent that anyone opening a new cinema went for it on a large scale and so set up in the suburbs, where land is somewhat cheaper and more available, and where, I suppose, the majority of people now live in Dublin? This doesn't explain the Virgin/UGC's apparent success though. Actually, I don't know if Virgin was that successful as they sold up shop rather quickly.

Victor · 25-02-2003 4:34pm

Originally posted by pickarooney
This doesn't explain the Virgin/UGC's apparent success though. Actually, I don't know if Virgin was that successful as they sold up shop rather quickly.

Virgin took it's time, as it was off the beaten track and the layout isn't ideal. It's real success came when it introduced season tickets. I suspect the number of times people use these tickets is relatively firm and allows them to better manage staff (but they could still do with more people selling tickets). Sales of snacks is one of the few variable costs they have. In their own way, rent, staff and tickets costs are fixed.

Virgin sold all it's cinemas to UGC, not just it's Irish one.

shotamoose · 25-02-2003 5:05pm

Originally posted by Hugs-E
The Screen in D'olier Street / Townsend Street

D'oh, of course. And I go there quite a bit too. Sheesh.

davej · 25-02-2003 5:42pm

Maybe it's just me but I've noticed an increase in the number of people going to the UGC in Parnell St. in recent months. This area of the city has changed a lot in terms of demographics even over the past year.

I have to say that generally I'm happy with the number of cinemas and choice of movies we get in Dublin.

The one area that's lacking IMO is a proper retrospective Cinema. I know the IFC shows a handful every month but I believe there would be a market out there for more old films to be shown. Over the past 2 or 3 months tons of new quality films have been released but often we go through a slow patch and this is where a Cinema showing older classics could make a killing.
Something along the lines of the Prince Charles Cinema in London.
Perhaps the cost/hassle in securing old films makes this unviable?

Wasn't there talk of a Cinema club using the facilities in Denzille lane ?
Has anyone got any information about this?

http://www.13denzille.com/facts.htm

davej

ballooba · 25-02-2003 6:07pm

Roll on EasyCinemas ala EasyJet. Or maybe our own flavour from Mr O'Leary?

Venom · 25-02-2003 6:50pm

I think there are more than enough cimema's in Dublin city center. There are 4 as it is all within a 10-20 min walk.

The Screen, D'Olier St.
UGC
The Savoy, O'Connell Street
IFC, Temple Bar

Tusky · 25-02-2003 8:30pm

there are enough cinemas <full stop>

sceptre · 25-02-2003 8:55pm

Originally posted by Victor
Cork underwent a similar rationalisation in the 1980s and then growth through the 1990s.

Going to the cinema in Cork changed quite a bit in the 80s as Victor mentioned. I can remember quite a few around the city centre but the only two I remember in particular were the Pavillion (now HMV and a few properties out the back) and the Capitol (since gone multiplex - I've only been there once in the last five years as GF reckons the place is smelly).

I suppose a lot of the reason behind cinemas closing in the early and mid 1980s was the arrival of home video - people just weren't going to the cinema as much then. My home town (Mallow) used have two cinemas, one closed in the late 70s AFAIK, the other trundled on as a kind of dirty (as in "unclean", not "porno") place with a video library out the front until it closed too (I only ever went there once - to see Peter Pan around 1980). The multiplexes (which are presumably far cheaper to run from the staffing POV in relation to the returns from new and older films) seemed to arrive around the country towards 1990, with quite a few new ones since (Cork got its second and third multiplexes & Limerick got its second in the late 90s). Very few single-screen venues around these days, in either the cities or country. I suspect the reasoning behind having multiplexes in the suburbs follows the same rationale as having shopping centres in the suburbs (sometimes like in Blanchardstown actually on the same site as opposed to just near)

Like Dave, I'd like to see a few cinemas showing older films exclusively. I don't know whether the IFC shows many, the Belltable club in Limerick shows about one a week in the old Central but again only a limited number of these are older movies.

Spunog UIE · 25-02-2003 9:00pm

Originally posted by hussey

and yes a cinema will make a healthy profit margin on food

Was talking to a guy a couple of weeks back who worked in uci in tallaght and he was sayin that 70% of their income comes through the food. Not surprising really.

Gordon · 25-02-2003 9:12pm

Dont' forget Rathmines' musky wet-rotted, fetid old cinema which is also 20 - 25 minutes outside town centre on a brisk walk.

The fact that city centre must surely have a less amount of people living there as opposed to offices and businesses in relation to the olden days (tm) must be another factor that cinemas are less in numbers. But as stated - surely the advent of DVD and video availability must hit the cinemas hard. I personally will wait to see a "second choice film" to come out on DVD as opposed to the cinema tbh.

As for the business of cinema I wouldn't have a clue but if they ever tell me I'm not allowed to bring my own popcorn into the cinema I'll put my popcorn down their trousers.

Kali · 25-02-2003 9:44pm

Originally posted by davej
Wasn't there talk of a Cinema club using the facilities in Denzille lane ?
Has anyone got any information about this?

http://www.13denzille.com/facts.htm

davej

When I was in DCU filmsoc we rented that out for a showing of The Big Lebowski two years ago, 300/hr or so I believe it was, they've excellent facilities, seating for around 30 I think, and a nice enough screen... although their main projector was down when we were there, they had a backup unit that done the job quite adequately anyway. Enjoyable and comfortable place anyway, although really suited to more corporate showings.

Victor · 25-02-2003 9:59pm

Originally posted by davej
http://www.13denzille.com/facts.htm

Is this owned by Littlebird (13 Merrion Square).

anthonymcg · 25-02-2003 10:22pm

Was there yesterday for Jackass. Only seats about 15. Well the screen I was in did unless there's another one.

Bounty Hunter · 25-02-2003 10:31pm

Originally posted by hussey
... they might not be a rich as you think
last year or the year before they scrapped the idea of 10 screen cineama in swords (near the pavilion) as it was just not viable

im pretty sure that they still plan on building that opposite where th pavillion is on the malahide side (can anyone say traffic jam)

i read in the northside people or whatever(the free one at the train station) that its been delayed again because they found a burial site on those grounds

they have been given the go-ahead once a excavation has been done ...so expect a wait before the cinemas ther

TheFoot · 26-02-2003 9:56am

Originally posted by Gideon
Was talking to a guy a couple of weeks back who worked in uci in tallaght and he was sayin that 70% of their income comes through the food. Not surprising really.

Do other theatres in Ireland offer a UGC-type card that enables you to see an unlimited number of movies for x euros a month (based on a 12-month commitment)? If it is true that cinemas make most of their profits on concessions, this makes a ton of sense. I see 6-8 movies a month at the UGC, and buy a Coke before every one. Sure they're losing money on admission (mind you, I'd probably only go to half as many if I didn't have the card) but they making plenty on the over-priced concessions. DB.

ThreadKiller · 26-02-2003 11:17am

How Cinema Works:

Ok this is how cinema works in Ireland...

The Omnis/Savoy/Screens of this country are owned by the Ward Anderson Group (who also release some films). The rest (including Ster/UGC/UCI) are all classed as "Independents".

Ward Anderson currently account for about 70% of sinema screens (note "screens" not cinemas) in Ireland.

The distributor - fox/warner/uip etc rent the film to the exhibitor for a percentage of the take & a small fixed fee.

This is called a "nut". The nut varies per film, so for example, a star wars movie would have a higher nut than the latest sandra bullock movie (because it's going to take more).

The nut starts out at about (in the event of a starwars) 80%. That is, 80% goes to the distributor in week 1 & 2. This then falls to 70% in week 3 & so on. The nut varies per release so by week four of a film, the distributor may only be taking 5% - 10% with the rest going to the exhibitor. moreoften than not, there is an agreed timeframe for the exhibition of a film. so they might have agreed a 6 week showing. If this is the case & there is a rash of movies to be released a film will be pulled early & then refunds on the nut will be made.

Regarding food, cinemas make their fixed running costs on these products, they're what pay the rent, staff & utilities. The nut is what provides the profit.

Any other questions ?

Washout · 26-02-2003 11:46am

Very insightful stuff Threadkiller...Thanks for that

ThreadKiller · 26-02-2003 11:51am

Pleasure.

Victor · 26-02-2003 3:44pm

Originally posted by ThreadKiller
Regarding food, cinemas make their fixed running costs on these products, they're what pay the rent, staff & utilities. The nut is what provides the profit.

This is merely an accounting method, other methods including the revenue commissioners will consider profit to be made across the board.

Originally posted by TheFoot
Sure they're losing money on admission (mind you, I'd probably only go to half as many if I didn't have the card) but they making plenty on the over-priced concessions. DB.

Depending on the structure of the nut, it is much better to have 200 people in a cinema paying €3 than 100 people paying €6. Not only will the staff costs be spread over more tickets, but more snacks will also be sold.

Victor · 24-08-2003 2:58pm

Originally posted by Victor
Glenageary.

Has been rebuilt as an office block. Tesco in Drumcondra also appears to have been a cinema.

I saw Terminator 3 in the Classic yesterday, only to see this piece today. The monkey bit seems bizarre.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/1249427?view=Eircomnet

Last picture show at the Classic in Harold's Cross next Friday
From:ireland.com
Saturday, 23rd August, 2003

One of Dublin's last traditional suburban cinemas, the Classic in Harold's Cross, is set to close at the end of next week.

The decision was taken reluctantly by the cinema's owner, Mr Albert Kelly, and was based entirely on health reasons.

"My doctor told me I had to stop doing a seven-days-a-week job," he told The Irish Times yesterday.

"I like the film business too much to give it up for any other reason. The business is thriving."

The Classic and the nearby Stella in Rathmines are the last two-screen neighbourhood cinemas in the capital. The final week's presentations at the Classic will be Veronica Guerin, the biggest hit of this year at Irish cinemas, and American Pie: The Wedding.

However, the film chosen as the cinema's last picture show next Friday night is The Rocky Horror Picture Show, which has broken all Irish cinema records by running at late-night shows in the Classic for the past 21 years.

"It has had a great cult following," Mr Kelly said. "It drew regular patrons from all walks of life - road sweepers, university students, petrol-pump attendants, professional people."

On learning the cinema is to close, Rocky Horror fans turned out in force last Friday and presented Mr Kelly with a plaque. He received a 10-minute standing ovation.

The Classic is sticking to its "no booking" policy for its final night. Tickets for the final three shows will be allocated on a first come, first served basis.

Originally named the Kenilworth, the cinema first opened its doors in 1953. In 1976, its owners, Sundrive Cinemas, decided to close the cinema and their other property, the Classic in Terenure, where Mr Kelly was the manager.

He bought the lease on the Kenilworth, took the Classic's name with him, and opened his own cinema there in October 1976. Mr Kelly made a point of being present every evening to greet his customers.

He had served his apprenticeship as a projectionist in the Grand Central cinema on O'Connell Street during the second World War. Its programming was composed mostly of unlikely reissues, but the cinema became renowned for its showmanship.

When screening the nature documentary, Bring 'Em Back Alive, the management exhibited a live caged monkey in the foyer. Intrigued by the gimmick, the public flocked to see the movie - until one evening when the monkey was electrocuted and went out of control, scaring the queue away.

segadreamcast · 24-08-2003 9:44pm

The monkey bit reminds me of Homer trying to get publicity for the bowling alley in the simpsons with the shotgun...

Anyway, if someone opened a decent alternative in town - they could easily do good business - a few friends and I were just talking about it last week oddly enough.

The savoy is not the greatest cinema in the world, infact it's one of the worst, and needs a massive renovation, new staff and a new foyer as soon as possible - it doesn't get the crowds any more, only the rejects from UGC.

The screen and IFC are both minority cinemas and only show a few movies at a time - in the case of the latter, they're all art movies.

The UGC is fantastic - easily the best of the four city centre cinemas - but anyone with a decent business brain, a plot of land, and enough enthusiasm as well as cash - could make it work well.

The Business of Cinema in Dublin

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