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Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 33,721 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    I don't know if they should be struck off, but on the face of it, the words 'gross negligence' leap off the screen, reading that article.

    The idea that anyone thinks this is a basis for reinstating the 8th amendment is preposterous. The story here is a pretty shocking mis-diagnosis.

    I don't believe you can sue for wrongful birth (eg baby born after vasectomy), but I assume you can, in theory, sue for wrongful abortion?

    It wasn't a wrongful abortion. The diagnosis was wrong, but ultimately this couple asked for an abortion. We were told abortion is about choice, and here they made the wrong one. At 15 weeks it was still early and quite clearly all the tests had not run their course, when this couple chose abortion.
    Edit:ok tests later, but could these tests have been done before the abortion?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,395 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    54&56 wrote: »
    What an idiotic (I'm being kind) post.


    Glee from the Christian's.


  • Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭Jaster Rogue


    I support abortion.

    But i'm curious, in this instance if the 8th hadn't been changed would the baby have been aborted (in Ireland)?

    What are the facts? without getting emotive over what has happened here please.

    Doesn't that just prove our laws were correct and theirs wrong?
    Our former laws would not have resulted in the slaughter of an innocent little baby. Theirs would.

    Edit meant to quote post about travelling to uk


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,325 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    No medical test is definitive, its the quest for and the belief in certainty that is the heart of the problem.

    Every risk in life can not be eliminated but somehow we are evolving a society when we think we can take the risk out of everything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    i think most people have heard of cases in which parents were told the baby wouldn't survive only for them to have a healthy teenager years later. happened in my family anyway. doctors are human and can be wrong. tests can be inaccurate or misread. its the risk you take.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭Jaster Rogue


    People are making out here that a little collateral damage is grand. This is an innocent defenceless human being we're talking about. 1 mistake is too many.


  • Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It wasn't a wrongful abortion. The diagnosis was wrong,
    What I mean to ask is, whether anyone has ever taken a case for wrongful abortion as a specific wrong, or tort.

    Because if there was negligence, this seems far worse than an 'ordinary' case of negligence where a person is injured, but nobody dies. Or, where somebody does die, but they're dead and they cannot sue or their relatives' award of damages is limited by legislation (as happens here in Ireland). This current scenario seems pretty unique.
    but ultimately this couple asked for an abortion. We were told abortion is about choice, and here they made the wrong one
    It was the right choice for them, given the information they had. You cannot just skip over the fact that the couple seem to believe they were not properly informed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭54and56


    nullzero wrote: »
    Whoever is responsible should be struck off offered support and training so the mistake isn't repeated again in the future.

    Fixed that for you for three reasons:-

    1. Everyone makes mistakes.
    2. The person who made the mistake will have to live with the consequences of their error forever. Not an easy thing to do. In a civilised society you support people not throw them on the scrap heap. Who knows what pressure the person was under or whether they were in the last hour of a 12 hour shift when this error was made.
    3. What is the benefit to society of throwing away 7 years of medical training (or whatever) because of one genuine mistake? Is it not better for that person to learn from the mistake, get some additional training/counselling and return to serving patients? Do you really think this person is EVER likely to make the same mistake again?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,727 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    Loads of people think that it is free to bring up kids, let's keep having babies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭54and56


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It is a very sad case, but the couple can't complain, only they made that choice.
    The parents and the unborn had no choice to undo the past when the wrong diagnosis was discovered. But ultimately this was the choice of the parents.

    Do you really believe the couple can't complain about being given the wrong diagnosis?

    Can you elaborate on why?

    If you were wrongly diagnosed as having X and opted to have your leg amputated to mitigate or remedy the problem and it turned out the diagnosis was completely wrong would it not cross your mind to perhaps complain? Fair play to you if it wouldn't. It certainly would for me!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,331 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    People are making out here that a little collateral damage is grand. This is an innocent defenceless human being we're talking about.

    I do not think anyone is making out it is "grand". I certainly did not. What we are making out is that it is to be EXPECTED. You said it yourself "The truth hurts sometimes." and the truth is when we implement any medical policy, someone somewhere suffers or dies.

    This is not new, not unique, not a surprise, not a shock, not a revelation. It is known.

    Vaccination save lives. Yet SOME small number of people die from adverse reactions to them. Drugs save lives. Yet SOME small number of people die from adverse reactions to them. Medical surgery saves lives or improves someone's well being but SOME number of people die from adverse reactions to them.

    To twist this case into an anti abortion agenda therefore is as misleading as it is disgusting. We KNOW that allowing people to choose abortion will result in SOME human misery. Either choices made on bad data such as this..... or even death to the pregnant women through adverse effects to the abortion procedure.

    The numbers will be small. But they will be there. That is, alas, the reality of medicine. Design a bridge. Build it. Go over it. Again you said it yourself. Sometimes the truth hurts. But we should not crumble from the right decision in the face of pain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,229 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    54&56 wrote: »
    Fixed that for you for three reasons:-

    1. Everyone makes mistakes.
    2. The person who made the mistake will have to live with the consequences of their error forever. Not an easy thing to do. In a civilised society you support people not throw them on the scrap heap. Who knows what pressure the person was under or whether they were in the last hour of a 12 hour shift when this error was made.
    3. What is the benefit to society of throwing away 7 years of medical training (or whatever) because of one genuine mistake? Is it not better for that person to learn from the mistake, get some additional training/counselling and return to serving patients? Do you really think this person is EVER likely to make the same mistake again?

    After seven years of training a doctor should be capable of waiting for test results before advising a woman to get an abortion.
    She didn't have a toe amputated here, a healthy baby was aborted when it shouldnt have been.

    What benefit is it to society to have an incompetent doctor making mistakes of this magnitude?
    Every apprentice carpenter learns to measure twice and cut once on their first day.

    Thanks for fixing it for me BTW, you really set me straight.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,716 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    In the case of cervical screening errors, the Courts have asked for 'absolute confidence' going forward, which may undermine the programme and all other population screening as it is impossible of any medical test.

    This outcome is tragic for the parents, but it could have happened in exactly the same way under the previous regimen with the termination taking place abroad. I do hope they recover and in future have a successful pregnancy.

    I also hope that as we approach the anniversary of the 8th amendment vote that both sides will refrain from hijacking this very sad situation for their own political aims.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Dirkziggler


    Why is there a smugness of the anti abortion camp regarding this tragic situation this isn’t a situation to point score.

    The comment “This is the case we’ve been waiting for “ can this be clarified please.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    .I also hope that as we approach the anniversary of the 8th amendment vote that both sides will refrain from hijacking this very sad situation for their own political aims.
    it has to be pointed out that tragic cases were used to promote the Repeal campaign.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    This is the case we've all been waiting for.

    This is what you've been waiting for ?

    For Jaysus sake.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    There are no winners in complex situations like this. I am not sure about your empathy to be honest.
    Agreed. It seems at times that being anti abortion in all circumstances is just a "sticking it to the left and the feminists" position, by people who hardly seem like they give a sh1t about unborn babies (their eagerness to throw in "leftie liberal woke" whatever reinforces this). They certainly don't seem to give a sh1t about many living babies.
    This is the case we've all been waiting for.
    "We've all" what?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,455 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Can people STF up about the repeal the 8th or not to repeal the 8th and just think about the poor family for a minute , Any of there family could be on here reading this


    Its an awful tragic accident, and not time for people to sling mud at each other,


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    People are making out here that a little collateral damage is grand. This is an innocent defenceless human being we're talking about. 1 mistake is too many.

    It's not a human being though. It's a pity because parents obviously wanted a child and I think that kind of cock ups shouldn't happen and should be punished (if it was a cock up).

    This should be a discussion about possible medical negligence and not about the 8th.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,834 ✭✭✭circadian


    This is the case we've all been waiting for.

    Classy.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 948 ✭✭✭Dirkziggler


    Can people STF up about the repeal the 8th or not to repeal the 8th and just think about the poor family for a minute , Any of there family could be on here reading this


    Its an awful tragic accident, and not time for people to sling mud at each other,


    I said as much above this is a tragedy in itself and it’s being used to point score.

    It’s scumbag behaviour


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,688 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    "It was thought the baby had Trisomy18, also known as Edwards Syndrome, but a series of genetic tests later found that was not the case."

    Maybe they should confirm the child had the disease before acting on it.

    Not much to ask for in fairness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    This is really saddening. In figuring out whether or not a foetus has an FFA, they need to be as sure as is possible. The doctors must have thought that because two tests were positive for the condition, the third probably would be too.

    In my unfortunately very vast experience of doctors, they makes mistakes ALL the frickin’ time and many can be quite blasé and cocksure when they shouldn’t be. You cannot be blasé about something like this.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    My own fault for clicking into the thread.

    But the lack of empathy to the parents who actively wanted a child and have lost it due to medical negligence, the "told you so" comments about how this was to be expected to happen. That the parents have no right to complain about this.

    Its actually disgusting some of the comments on here. They show a real sense of being glad to see this happened so they can get on their moral high horse again, regardless of facts that the 8th would have made little or no difference here. Point scoring over a couple having an abortion on what was actually a healthy baby.

    Meanwhile a couple are grieving over a lost pregnancy they clearly wanted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭LorelaiG


    Considering that there is no time restriction for time on a termination for FFA they (whoever 'they' are... the doctors, the parents) they really jumped the gun by not waiting on diagnostic test results to come back rather than relying on screening tests.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,463 ✭✭✭loveisdivine


    People are making out here that a little collateral damage is grand. This is an innocent defenceless human being we're talking about. 1 mistake is too many.

    By this logic the whole idea of medicine and surgeries etc should be made illegal. People have surgery every day, some of those people die. So does that mean we shouldn't ever operate on people because one death is too many?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,799 ✭✭✭take everything


    bruschi wrote: »
    My own fault for clicking into the thread.

    But the lack of empathy to the parents who actively wanted a child and have lost it due to medical negligence, the "told you so" comments about how this was to be expected to happen. That the parents have no right to complain about this.

    Its actually disgusting some of the comments on here. They show a real sense of being glad to see this happened so they can get on their moral high horse again, regardless of facts that the 8th would have made little or no difference here. Point scoring over a couple having an abortion on what was actually a healthy baby.

    Meanwhile a couple are grieving over a lost pregnancy they clearly wanted.

    Why do you say the eighth would have made no difference here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    By this logic the whole idea of medicine and surgeries etc should be made illegal. People have surgery every day, some of those people die. So does that mean we shouldn't ever operate on people because one death is too many?
    Ya twas only a foetus after all


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    LorelaiG wrote: »
    Considering that there is no time restriction for time on a termination for FFA they (whoever 'they' are... the doctors, the parents) they really jumped the gun by not waiting on diagnostic test results to come back rather than relying on screening tests.
    Was just thinking how difficult it can be to navigate through this process: medical staff involved on each of the procedures can range from GPs/consultants/nurses.
    Really feel sorry for the parents, they may have been insufficiently guided ... but at the end of the day they should have known there are risks, this is more on them imo.
    While I'd imagine in the hospital they have signed T&Cs before going ahead with the abortion, do wonder who on the medical side is responsible end to end for a pregnancy that does get terminated - any thoughts ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,395 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Edgware wrote: »
    Ya twas only a foetus after all

    God lovers rubbing their hands with delight.


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