Suicide and men.

BobTheNihilist · 19-06-2013 6:40pm #1

SUICIDE IS A word with which in today’s Ireland we are all too familiar. There can be few people who don’t know, either directly or indirectly, someone who has taken their own life in recent years, and we are frequently reminded of its presence via the media. As tragic as this is in all cases, it is especially so when it concerns a young person, and unfortunately Ireland appears affected more than most countries in Europe.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/mens-health-suicide-ireland-948495-Jun2013/

I'm gonna come right out and say it - i have attempted suicide several times in the past. I had a chance to do it with a gun once, a .22 rifle, but I couldnt go thru with it for some reason. Maybe I should have.

How many more men in this country do we have to bury before there time?

We men are ****e at talking about feelings with each other or even or loved ones, if we have any. Other guys thing youre bent or a wuss or a pussy or something. Instead were recession casualties - we have no jobs and no future so we spiral into despair.

I found the Samartians helpful in the past. They're ok and it;s good to have an actual person on the end of a phone.
Im not gonna tell anyone what to do with there life. But I guarantee you there are men out there who feel like ending it all the time..Ive been one of those men in the past and for all I know will be again in the future.
I just feel overwhelmed sometimes.

ted1 · 19-06-2013 8:41pm

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

shamrock55 · 19-06-2013 8:47pm

ted1 wrote: »

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

Obviously there are things going on in peoples lives that are that bad and for the life of them they cant see a way out its pure dispair and hard to understand if your own life is all rosey

weldoninhio · 19-06-2013 8:54pm

ted1 wrote: »

I think cancer is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

I've changed a word in your original post. Do you think this is the same? It is because of attitudes like yours that more people don't talk about how they feel, and spiral and spiral until they don't see any option other than suicide.

I've been suicidal, i've tried to kill myself, i've sat here and gone through the options of hanging, walking in front of a train, slashing wrists, etc. Its not something you just decide one day. Its months and months of depression and feeling down. Feeling like no-one cares, like no-one understands, that you can't tell people you feel suicidal because they'll think your "selfish" and tell you to man up.

Depression is a disease, not a choice. And sometimes suicide/attempted suicide is a symptom. However extreme it may seem.

Mr.Fred · 19-06-2013 8:54pm

"A permanent solution to a temporary problem." It's becoming all to common alright and I wouldn't call it the selfish way out. I couldn't imagine what it must be like to be so low and helpless that you think ending your life is the only option. It just highlights how little the goverment invests in mental health. Op when you're feeling that low always reach out to someone first everyone needs a hand at some point these days.

RainyDay · 19-06-2013 9:00pm

ted1 wrote: »

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

What 'adventures' does Marie Fleming have yet to have?

BerryBlue · 20-06-2013 5:24am

ted1 wrote: »

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

I half love / half hate what your opinion is! On the one hand its great that you can't in any way fathom what its like or how it feels to be suicidal - not just suicidal but for the urge to be so strong to just not be here - that makes me a bit angry that someone like yourself can't empathise. But then again - if you have been there, and felt like that, its not something that you would wish someone could empathise with - you would spare your worst enemy that feeling. Its the worst thing to say to someone - get over it / could be worse/ pack a bag & travel a bit! If only it were that easy!

Suicide is not for cowards - and it not selfish - for something to be selfish, one has to benefit - it just is what it is, a person so deeply unhappy/disconnected that they choose to not be here any longer.

I'm glad the OP had the opportunity & didn't go through with it - for reasons it sounds like he doesn't even understand - but dude, there is a reason - if you were meant to go then you would have. But obviously you still have alot to learn from this planet. I hope you will one day soon get to the place where you think & feel that all your suffering has meant something because you have a deeper appreciation for life... you can pm me if you want? I've been there... don't ever want to be back there... but sometimes you have no choice.

BerryBlue · 20-06-2013 5:36am

Mr.Fred wrote: »

"A permanent solution to a temporary problem." It's becoming all to common alright and I wouldn't call it the selfish way out. I couldn't imagine what it must be like to be so low and helpless that you think ending your life is the only option. It just highlights how little the goverment invests in mental health. Op when you're feeling that low always reach out to someone first everyone needs a hand at some point these days.

I'm sorry, this will ruffle a few feathers because its become such a popular saying - 'a permanent solution to a temporary problem' - I HATE this! Depression and being no longer able to bear it, is not 'temporary' - how long IS temporary? a week/month/ year - how about 5/10/15/20 years? - If you are 1/2/3/4/5 years suffering in excruciating depression - is that 'temporary' ? I love discussions on mental health/depression - but there are so many nonsensical sayings thrown about by people who don't know how it feels to be in that place where 'not being' is FAR more preferable to being.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - you have yours, I have mine - yet can you truly have such a vehement opinion on something you have never experienced yourself? Think about it....

sheikhnguyen · 20-06-2013 5:37am

ted1 wrote: »

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

A word to the wise, it's better to keep your mouth shut if you have no idea what you are talking about.
The overwhelming majority of people who commit suicide don't do it to escape debt or something else trivial. They do it because they are very very ill.
Your ignorance is only surpassed by the banality of your suggested "cures".

OP - hang in there, hopefully you'll find your balance. just keep talking!

ted1 · 20-06-2013 8:08am

My opinion is of personal experience of having to pick up the pieces afterwards and watching close friends and family deal with the aftermath.

sheikhnguyen · 20-06-2013 8:23am

ted1 wrote: »

My opinion is of personal experience of having to pick up the pieces afterwards and watching close friends and family deal with the aftermath.

mine too. that makes it even less excusable.

20-06-2013 9:22am

ted1 wrote: »

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

An unhelpful comment made from a pedestal of privilege alas. It is so easy for the mentally and physically healthy to make such a comment without really understanding some of the depths things can go to for some people.

Medical depression for example can lead people to a position so low that it strips away all the atrributes you have to make you privileged enough to be that judgemental.

For such people it has nothing at all to do with cowardice but quite simply the inability to face anything at all. You reach points so low that bravery or cowardice simply are not factors that come into the decision at all.

Still others reach a point in their life - such as someone I personally know who chose suicide - where they have been diagnosed with something that promises nothing but a very shortned life of pain and loss of all dignity - to the point where ones life will become nothing but a burden upon others as they will be forced to run around after them - clean up the messes caused by their own specific loses of human dignity - and much worse. Such people see suicide not only as the right option for them themselves - but as the best choice for those around them too.

So your position declaring that "Nothing in life is that bad" is really a position based on a failure of knowledge or even imagination on just how bad it gets for some people. Certainly sweeping ones hand across the table and dismissing the entire subject as "cowardice" is as unhelpful as it is false.

In fact it is even dangerous - murderously so - in that - as another user pointed out - deriding such people having such feelings is one of the reasons why they feel unable to seek assistence and solace in others. It makes them feel like everything is somehow a failing on their part and this in turn feeds back into the depressions and despairs they already feel. Rather we should point out the fact that this is not uncommon - there is nothing wrong with it - and people with those feelings should be happy and willing to come forward openly with them.

That said I am all for our society doing it's absolute best to ensure that people reaching such positions ARE aware of their other options and ARE helped when they reach points so low that they see no other way out. Awareness needs to be raised on many issues from many angles in and around the subject of suicide as it has been but a lot more too.

ted1 wrote: »

My opinion is of personal experience of having to pick up the pieces afterwards and watching close friends and family deal with the aftermath.

Yes because there is nothing wiser in this world than to extrapolate a vast generalisation off the back of a single personal anecdote.

Crooked Jack · 20-06-2013 9:29am

ted1 wrote: »

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

Yeah, why not just buy a motorbike. They're going two a penny. I mean, if your financial situation is so bad that you're thinking about suicide, what on earth is stopping you from buying a motor bike and taking a merry wee jaunt to Russia or Asia. Why not buy a rocket powered, solid gold motorbike that can drive on water and save yourself the expense of a flight.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's akin to saying "why be depressed because your legs have been amputated, just grow new ones."

iceage · 20-06-2013 9:42am

OP, as suggested above, hang in there and keep talking. There are more and more people that you can get in contact with such as Pieta House, http://www.pieta.ie/ they have offices all over the place. Chin up and in the words of a very wise man "Don't let the bastards get you down.

eviltwin · 20-06-2013 9:58am

ted1 wrote: »

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

If only it were that easy. Depression is a mental illness. I've attempted suicide despite seeing the impact my cousin's suicide had on his family. You aren't logical when your depressed, your thinking is all warped, you become paranoid, you actually believe your not being here is better for everyone. You just can't deal with it or get over it as is often suggested, it takes a lot of time, patience, support and medical intervention.

Your comments probably reflect what a lot of people think but its not helpful and can be counterproductive.

Emme · 20-06-2013 9:59am

Ireland has always been a tough country for men, but it has been particularly bad in the last few years. Segregated education has made it difficult for men and women to communicate. We see each other as enemies rather than allies.

I think that it is particularly difficult for men in rural areas. Emigration takes a bigger toll in the country than in cities because it's harder for people to meet. There are fewer things you can do free, and the drink driving laws means that it's easier to sit at home with a few cans than to go out. Drinking alone is dangerous for anyone who is suicidal.

OP, all I can say is hang in there and use whatever services are at your disposal.

Thank goodness suicide isn't stigmatised like before, but it's worrying that more people than ever are committing suicide.

What can we in Ireland do to make things easier for people who are suicidal?

Ash.J.Williams · 20-06-2013 10:02am

I think men are more than able to discuss their problems...I think once people realise somebody has mental issues they abandon them!

The Black Oil · 20-06-2013 10:14am

There is that, alright.

I don't think it's fair to say that people who take their own lives give no thought to others. I recall someone describing a suicide note that had been left saying the person had paid off the ESB bill, which may seem utterly irrelevant, but I guess in one way that perhaps the person was trying to think of others, if not the implications of what they were about to do.

To say nothing in life is that bad is just nonsense, really. You have to understand that in a person's mind, the option of suicide may seem less painful than the life they are living.

listermint · 20-06-2013 10:25am

BerryBlue wrote: »

Suicide is not for cowards - and it not selfish - for something to be selfish, one has to benefit

Great choice of words actually, that line somes it up. I used to think that people who took this avenue out were selfish. But i have read alot and looked into the background of depression and my mind has whole heartedly changed. Thankfully i have no intimate knowledge of the subject and havent directly experienced a loved one taking up the final option. I certainly wouldnt wish it upon anyone.

There was a recent article from a young gaa keeper posted in the journal and it made for moving reading. frankly i think that his words should be distributed in schools and discussed. It will make a world of difference.

Here it is,

http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/2/2605130949-a-footballers-story/

It should be read in its entirety as it really gives one an tiny inkling into what life must be like day to day living with it

The Black Oil · 20-06-2013 10:31am

I recall reading that. Powerful.

I have heard a number of calls for the establishment of a suicide prevention authority. I have to say, I don't get this at all, or why it might be useful, but don't want to drag this off topic.

the_syco · 20-06-2013 12:47pm

A permanent solution to a temporary problem

Depression is only becoming accepted as something that exists fairly recently. Like PTSD, it has always existed, and like PTSD was once called "shell shock" that people expected you'd overcome by "manning up", depression is been seen as something that many are suffering from.

When the priest on the alter is speaking about it, they usually only know about the final straw that broke the camels back; the money problem, the drugs problem, or whatever, and view it as a temporary thing that suicide permanently ended, as opposed to the months or years of depression that preceded it. The f**ker can preach about the badness of the money and drugs, but they probably know they'll get lynched if they talk about depression in the same way!

ted1 wrote: »

I think sucide is the cowards way out

Although a lot of people hate that line, I'd wonder how many people repeat it over and over, to themselves, and only to themselves.

sheikhnguyen wrote: »

A word to the wise, it's better to keep your mouth shut if you have no idea what you are talking about.

But how do you learn that your knowledge is not true if you only preach to the choir? Although a few will forever only see the trees, some will see the forest through the replies of others.

Emme wrote: »

but it has been particularly bad in the last few years.

Emme wrote: »

I think that it is particularly difficult for men in rural areas.

It's always been bad in the rural part of Ireland, although due to the heavy religious part, the suicides were never listed as suicides. Drinking a depressant whilst suffering from depression is not always a good mix if you're driving home alone; you'll read about a car crash involving a car, a straight road, and a tree or wall far off the beaten track.

Emme wrote: »

What can we in Ireland do to make things easier for people who are suicidal?

Stop sweeping the suicide stats under the rug, so that they get resources made available to them.

The Black Oil wrote: »

I have heard a number of calls for the establishment of a suicide prevention authority.

Once it's non-religious, and can't be controlled by politicians trying to score points, sure, but I fear that the latter will ring true.

Handsome Bob · 20-06-2013 1:05pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

I've changed a word in your original post.

I do not think it's the coward's way out and I've seen the horrific grip it can have on people.

But I have to say this: depression is not comparable to cancer. Yes, depression is paralysing and can hold you in a vice grip; but there is always support out there that can bring you back from the brink. Reaching out and seeking help in such a situation can be incredibly difficult, I understand that, but it doesn't change the fact that these things are available to someone.

With cancer? A lot of the time reaching out and seeking help will be fruitless. No matter how much you try and how much you want to, you aren't going to get better.

This isn't a cry of "man up." I would never think or say something so cruel to someone who as I said, is suffering from something that can feel paralysing and all consuming. But the fact remains, you can pull yourself back from the brink.

The cancer patient, often, cannot.

Pawwed Rig · 20-06-2013 1:29pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I think men are more than able to discuss their problems...I think once people realise somebody has mental issues they abandon them!

I think this is an excellent point. We all think how understanding and enlightened we would be if we ever were faced with someone with depression or suicidal thoughts. The truth though that it is often the person that is the outcast, the one that we snigger about behind their back, the guy who never gets asked to go for lunch with the others that is the most affected.
People with depression are not necessarily nice people to be around. They think in a different way than the 'group norm' and often have little in common with others.

I would ask everyone here to look around their office/workplace and think is there anyone being 'left out' or that is considered weird/strange/different. All of us know someone with depression whether we choose to acknowledge the fact or not. And most of us will never attempt to do anything to help.

On of the guys who works in my workplace recently did a sponsored cycle in aid of Aware. He sent out the e-mail asking for sponsorship and accepted the plaudits afterwards. This is a guy who single handedly caused one of his reportees 2 separate depressive episodes because of the way he was treating him. He probably does not even realise the consequences of his actions.

April O Neill · 20-06-2013 2:08pm

ted1 wrote: »

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

Most people kill themselves because they are depressed.

Your post pretty much says "snap out of it".

I despair.

Mr.Fred · 20-06-2013 3:31pm

BerryBlue wrote: »

I'm sorry, this will ruffle a few feathers because its become such a popular saying - 'a permanent solution to a temporary problem' - I HATE this! Depression and being no longer able to bear it, is not 'temporary' - how long IS temporary? a week/month/ year - how about 5/10/15/20 years? - If you are 1/2/3/4/5 years suffering in excruciating depression - is that 'temporary' ? I love discussions on mental health/depression - but there are so many nonsensical sayings thrown about by people who don't know how it feels to be in that place where 'not being' is FAR more preferable to being.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - you have yours, I have mine - yet can you truly have such a vehement opinion on something you have never experienced yourself? Think about it....

Considering it's a saying endorsed by numerous suicide awareness campaigns feel free to hate away. If it takes a saying like it to make people more aware and ruffles your feathers I could live with that.

As regards my opinion it is purely that as for you attacking my opinion work away I wouldn't have much time for your post either to be honest.

Now did you have anything useful to add to this thread seeing as how you love mental health discussion. I think like most folks out there you're all talk an no trousers when it comes to tackling issues.

RDM_83 again · 20-06-2013 9:39pm

April O Neill wrote: »

Most people kill themselves because they are depressed.

Your post pretty much says "snap out of it".

I despair.

Do they though? I've not read much but depression is only an indicator of of suicide risk.

Not to turn this into a gender issue but way more woman suffer from depression than men, far less woman commit suicide (though it is rising), I know there's issues of men not seeking help but the difference in rates is huge.

I am aware that females attempt suicide quite often but to my (uniformed) mind that is quiet different to a successful suicide bid, we only hear from those people that have attempted it and failed, of the huge numbers of young men that kill themselves in Ireland have most of them made previous attempts (genuine question btw)

Secondly if depression/suicidal tendencies is to be considered as an inescapable psychological condition that has taken hold (which would seem to be the view of the majority of people on/reading this thread), doesn't that mean that we have a duty to prevent these suicides occurring.

So if some one wishes to die due to this condition, isn't it the right thing to do to treat them and remove/manage this condition using ANY means necessary with or without the suffers consent.

I know this point is controversial but I see a flaw in completely absolving a person of responsibility for their actions while still judging that they are compos mentis in relation to choice around treatment.

Third point is, suicide clustering is a known issue, does more awareness and acceptance of suicide increase rates, is it possible that by raising awareness we are increasing risk? I raise this point with an awareness of how historic figures are inaccurate (and still are) but I still think that there has been an increase in the rates.

These are just my musings on the issue and I am not advocating wholesale cohercive confinement of the mentally ill or implying any judgement on those suffering from depression or those affected by suicide (which is basically every person in Ireland

)

mfceiling · 20-06-2013 9:48pm

Suicide is horrible. The night my brother called me and asked "are you sitting down?"...why? "are you sitting down?"...then he tells me through tears that our older male cousin had hung himself earlier that day.

The brother used to work with him - day in, day out for 10 years or more. He was like our older brother more so than a cousin.

After all the fuss had died down and the rumour mill had stopped spinning we find out he had severe depression. Hid it well though - was laughing and joking up until the hours before he did it.

Depression is an illness, full stop.

I have a close friend who was suffering from depression and wouldn't seek help. My point to "X" was "if you had a pain in your leg or arm or eye would you see a doctor?" They finally went to the doc after my hounding of them for months. Told me that they broke down crying to the doc and he was able to calm "X" down, listen to "X", talk to "X" and then refer "X" to a counsillor who has helped immensely.

Never suffer in silence. If you are struggling, tell someone. Come on here and tell us, tell a friend, a work collegue, a family member, a doctor....just tell someone you are struggling.....no one will judge you, but they will listen to you. It's up to you to then get the help you need - it's out there. There's no reason to think things will be better if you were dead - you might think you will be in a better place, but the amount of people you will leave behind in a worse place will far outweigh that.

superb choice of username · 20-06-2013 10:06pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Not to turn this into a gender issue but way more woman suffer from depression than men, far less woman commit suicide (though it is rising), I know there's issues of men not seeking help but the difference in rates is huge.

You KNOW the primary flaw in the logic - men don't come forward, and so the figures are in no way accurate, but you still state as a fact that 'way more woman suffer from depression than men'? How does that work?

Rev Hellfire · 20-06-2013 10:18pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Not to turn this into a gender issue but way more woman suffer from depression than men

Fancy providing some recognised studies which match this.

RDM_83 again · 20-06-2013 10:30pm

superb choice of username wrote: »

You KNOW the primary flaw in the logic - men don't come forward, and so the figures are in no way accurate, but you still state as a fact that 'way more woman suffer from depression than men'? How does that work?

Even if the actual rate of depression is gender neutral the differences in suicide still indicate a serious difference/

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Fancy providing some recognised studies which match this.

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/177/6/486.short

http://www.cdc.gov/mentalhealth/data_stats/depression.htm

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/depression/MH00035

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00406-002-0381-6

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0447.2003.00204.x/abstract;jsessionid=F2EBDE8E72281DD1A17CB87D82E4BDAF.d04t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

I'm willing to admit I stated the case a bit strongly and there is obvious issues however what I stated would be the standard view, these links are grabbed after a 2 minute search btw though.

here's a link to a study that would argue against what I stated however

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15006279

April O Neill · 20-06-2013 10:43pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Do they though? I've not read much but depression is only an indicator of of suicide risk.

Not to turn this into a gender issue but way more woman suffer from depression than men, far less woman commit suicide (though it is rising), I know there's issues of men not seeking help but the difference in rates is huge.

I am aware that females attempt suicide quite often but to my (uniformed) mind that is quiet different to a successful suicide bid, we only hear from those people that have attempted it and failed, of the huge numbers of young men that kill themselves in Ireland have most of them made previous attempts (genuine question btw)

Secondly if depression/suicidal tendencies is to be considered as an inescapable psychological condition that has taken hold (which would seem to be the view of the majority of people on/reading this thread), doesn't that mean that we have a duty to prevent these suicides occurring.

So if some one wishes to die due to this condition, isn't it the right thing to do to treat them and remove/manage this condition using ANY means necessary with or without the suffers consent.

I know this point is controversial but I see a flaw in completely absolving a person of responsibility for their actions while still judging that they are compos mentis in relation to choice around treatment.

Third point is, suicide clustering is a known issue, does more awareness and acceptance of suicide increase rates, is it possible that by raising awareness we are increasing risk? I raise this point with an awareness of how historic figures are inaccurate (and still are) but I still think that there has been an increase in the rates.

These are just my musings on the issue and I am not advocating wholesale cohercive confinement of the mentally ill or implying any judgement on those suffering from depression or those affected by suicide (which is basically every person in Ireland )

Yes, I would say severe depression is the biggest factor in someone taking the decision to end their life.

As to women suffering from depression more, but more men actually committing suicide, I don't know if there's a definitive answer why that is. It's a worldwide phenomenon.

I wouldn't see it as a smoking gun for depression not being the main cause. Women may suffer from depression more, but we are also far more encouraged to display our feelings. Nobody ever tells us to "man up".

Then possibly, physiological differences might help explain it. Differing levels of testosterone, perhaps?

And nobody is saying that depressed people can't be helped. It how it's treated that needs to change. The cack-handed approaches of the past just won't cut it any more. Sadly, it is still stigmatised, sufferers being called "weak".

Suicide and men.

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