Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Constitutional basis for Ministers not members of the Oireachtas

13»

Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,963 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Caquas wrote: »
    Or would you accept this regime indefinitely?

    What's your alternative?

    There is nothing stopping opposition electing a different Taoiseach and an election in the current scenario is more or less impossible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    What's your alternative?

    There is nothing stopping opposition electing a different Taoiseach and an election in the current scenario is more or less impossible.

    125 TD were elected who ran on a platform to remove FG from office. FF SF Lab SD Greens PBP sol etc all said they would kick FG out.

    But now they are afraid of responsibility.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    Podge_irl wrote: »

    There is nothing stopping opposition electing a different Taoiseach and an election in the current scenario is more or less impossible.

    Also, my understanding is that Leo would need the President's permission to go the country and there's nothing (other than precedent!) to stop the President from saying something long winded along the following lines:

    "Sorry Taoiseach, but I'm not allowing you to dissolve the Dáil until that nice lady from Cabra had been given a proper opportunity to cobble together a government with the Greens, the Soc Dems, Labour, the republican wing of Fianna Fail and the left wing TDs. "


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,292 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Victor wrote: »
    Didn't FF put pressure on the president to allow them form a government, despite not having the support of the Dáil?

    In 1994, when Dick Spring pulled out of the coalition with Albert Reynolds?

    The only discretion allowed to the president is to refuse a request for a dissolution of the Dáil to a Taoiseach who has lost his majority.

    In 1994, it wasn't a case of FF asking the president to 'allow' them to form a (minority) Government because with FG and Labour voting against them, they wouldn't have been able to pass a budget or survive a motion of no confidence. So going it alone was never an option.

    With the breakdown of his coalition with Labour, Reynolds had to go to the Áras to resign and then he had two options....

    1. Ask for a dissolution and call a general election. This did not happen but had it, the president could have refused.

    2. Go back to the Dáil and inform the Ceann Comhairle that he had resigned. This did happen and the Dáil subsequently elected John Bruton as Taoiseach and head of the so-called rainbow coalition.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,963 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Also, my understanding is that Leo would need the President's permission to go the country and there's nothing (other than precedent!) to stop the President from saying something long winded along the following lines:

    "Sorry Taoiseach, but I'm not allowing you to dissolve the Dáil until that nice lady from Cabra had been given a proper opportunity to cobble together a government with the Greens, the Soc Dems, Labour, the republican wing of Fianna Fail and the left wing TDs. "

    Any reasonable argument that she hasn't been given a proper opportunity so far? I guess the president could suggest that more time is needed (particularly given the current situation) but then Varadkar isn't going to go to the Aras given the current situation either.

    An election currently can't be run and the make up of the Dail isn't about to change. So we are stuck with what we have - plenty of countries have taken longer to form governments.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    Podge_irl wrote: »

    Any reasonable argument that she hasn't been given a proper opportunity so far? I guess the president could suggest that more time is needed (particularly given the current situation) but then Varadkar isn't going to go to the Aras given the current situation either.

    The poor woman was laid up with the the plague for a month so her brain was addled. Mickey Dee is a very kindly old codger and couldn't possibly refuse her the opportunity to try again - especially if she selects her "A" negotiating team, this time. Maybe David Cullinane and his pals could lead the delegation!


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,292 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Also, my understanding is that Leo would need the President's permission to go the country and there's nothing (other than precedent!) to stop the President from saying something long winded along the following lines:

    Michael D would simply inform Leo that he was refusing the request. Giving a reason would be legally ill advised because when you have the 'absolute discretion' to do something, you don't give a reason when you exercise the power.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    coylemj wrote: »
    Michael D would simply inform Leo that he was refusing the request. Giving a reason would be legally ill advised because when you have the 'absolute discretion' to do something, you don't give a reason when you exercise the power.

    I assume that you mean "could" rather than "would"! Because Michael D is a man who rarely uses one word when he can use fifty!


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,292 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    I assume that you mean "could" rather than "would"! Because Michael D is a man who rarely uses one word when he can use fifty!

    +1 you got me there!


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Obviously the present situation is unsatisfactory. Drama-queening it by claiming that the current ministers have resigned because they have lost the confidence of the Dail doesn't help matters, however. So what would?

    Some have suggested a fixed time limit for forming a government, after which a new election should be constitutionally required, but this has three problems:

    1. A fresh election won't necessarily solve the problem. Case in point: Israel.

    2. Such a rule could conceivably make matters worse; a party which hopes to improve its position in a new election now has an incentive to impede the formation of a government.

    3. The rule also presents an opportunity to populist and alt-right movements who have an interest in presenting parlamentary democracy as "broken" and, therefore, an interest in breaking it. They, too, would be motivated to impede the formation of any government, and then to present the ensuing election as an imposition on the people.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Obviously the present situation is unsatisfactory. Drama-queening it by claiming that the current ministers have resigned because they have lost the confidence of the Dail doesn't help matters, however. So what would?

    Some have suggested a fixed time limit for forming a government, after which a new election should be constitutionally required.....

    At least some of us recognise the problem but I agree that there is no easy solution. As you say, forcing early elections could exacerbate matters. It would be an admission of failure and the next Dáil may be even more divided.

    The only durable solution is the election of a Taoiseach and a Cabinet by the Dáil. Until then, there should be a structured system of coordination between the Dail and the Government to ensure broad political support for major policy decisions. We have never needed such a system before but it wouldn't be difficult to arrange if the Dail got its act together and formed Committees. Yesterday saw the first meeting of any Committee of the new Dail, a COVD-19 special committee which questioned HSE officials, not Minister Harris. Nonetheless, there was (as the IT puts it so meekly)
    a collective sense that at last some political accountability was finally being injected into this emergency.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/inaugural-covid-19-dáil-committee-hearing-a-hurried-affair-1.4257550

    I think the current impasse will be a recurring problem for our political system due to the hollowing-out of our traditional parties and the rise of independents. And SF aren’t going away either, ya know. Until we face up to the problem, we will have a huge democratic deficit in this country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    We've been through a version of this before, when we transitioned from single-party majority governments being the norm (which they were, up unil the 1980s) to a new norm of a governments dominated by one large party, but needing support from others either in the form of a coalition or support from outside government. It was an awkward transition with a number of cherished nostrums having to be abandoned ("Fianna Fail doesn't do coalitions"), but it didn't take that long. Policitians may be divided by ideology and interest, but they all consider government important and not having a government to be a bad thing. Plus, they all want to be in government and they realise pretty quickly that, if there isn't a government, nobody gets to be in government.

    So, basically, political culture adapts to political realities. If the new norm is that no party is large enough to be the dominant party in government, then political culture will adapt to allow the formation of multi-party governments. They are fairly standard in other European countries; there is is no reason to suppose that they are beyond us. It's unfortunate that we have to embark on the transition at a time when we also have to respond to a pandemic, but we are where we are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I agree this is part of an historical process and things will work out eventually but I am not so sanguine about the outcome.

    For most of our independent history, FF dominated with a mix of republicanism and social programmes. FG were the alternative (with Labour and others), first on the right-wing then as social liberals . Now, our two “major” parties are so reduced that their “grand coalition” is far short of a majority and they are floundering around trying to form a workable coalition.

    What principles guide these negotiations? None, judging by the shopping list they touted to potential coalition partners. They'd do business with anyone except the largest party and that anathema is not based on SF policies. The likely result is a government where the Green tail will wag the FF/FG dog and we will pay for Green policies although only one in fourteen voters gave them a first preference.

    I used to think Aesop’s fable about the goose that laid the golden egg was too absurd to be credible. How could any farmer be so stupid? I now see this fable played out endlessly in real life as blind greed destroys the sources of wealth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Of course, a FF-FG-SF coalition would also be unhealthy, as they could win every vote. The official opposition would be the party with the coldest feet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭Caquas


    We will be in legal limbo for another month with no legislature to pass emergency laws.

    Micheál told Tubridy last night to expect a deal in early June. Then the parties have to consult their socially-distanced members. The Greens might have a leadership contest (ironic if Éamon is the only leader to face a leadership challenge!). The earliest we can have an elected government is 16 June but a lot can go wrong in the next few weeks. Then the new Taoiseach has to appoint 11 Senators. I expect scheduled August sittings of the Oireachtas, a first in our history.

    We all laughed at that pub in Donegal delivering pints in clingfilm until the Gardai stepped in.
    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/20-pints-guinness-seized-garda-22047697

    Turns out the Gardai have no power to stop it.
    Pubs throughout the Republic will now be able to operate during the Covid-19 lockdown, subject to certain restrictions, because of a “lack of clarity” in the liquor licensing laws.
    ...

    As long as drinks, including poured pints, are paid for on a licensed premises they can be delivered to customers.

    [URL="Pubs can deliver pints to their customers again following legal advice via The Irish Times https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/pubs-can-deliver-pints-to-their-customers-again-following-legal-advice-1.4260451"]Pubs can deliver pints to their customers again following legal advice via The Irish Times https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/pubs-can-deliver-pints-to-their-customers-again-following-legal-advice-1.4260451[/URL]

    What this really means is that we don’t have laws designed for this pandemic and we can’t pass laws because there’s no Seanad. Our lawmakers haven’t even elected a government.

    If the Gardai can’t stop pubs delivering pints, how can they enforce 14 days house arrest for every visitor to our shores? One-third of visitors didn’t even bother filling in the form so that can be made obligatory but that’s just paper.

    The list will get longer as we try to ease this lockdown. What law prevents a homewares store from opening when Woodies and B&Q are open? Golfers over 5 km. ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The fact that the regulations already made don't ban, e.g., home delivery of pints doesn't mean that there is no power for ministers to make regulations banning the home delivery of pints. The present parliamentary impasse doesn't mean that no laws can be passed; only that primary legislation can't be passed.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I don't think there is any legislative desire to ban it anyway. It's no different to being delivered cooked food


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The fact that the regulations already made don't ban, e.g., home delivery of pints doesn't mean that there is no power for ministers to make regulations banning the home delivery of pints. The present parliamentary impasse doesn't mean that no laws can be passed; only that primary legislation can't be passed.

    As negotiations for government formation are underway, I doubt the current Ministers will abuse their powers to make subsidiary regulations. They know that our courts have stepped in regularly to prevent such Ministerial abuses in the past. Not only will the courts stop Ministers making regulations which go beyond the scope of the primary legislation, the courts will stop the Oireachtas from delegating such powers to the Ministers i.e. when primary legislation expressly gave a Minister sweeping scope to make secondary legislation, the courts have quashed such regulations as unconstitutional (because we are a democracy and the Oireachtas has a monopoly on legislation).

    Selling take-away pints is the least of it. Does any Minister imagine he/she, at the stroke of a pen, can force everyone entering this country to self-isolate? People are now obliged to fill in a form giving their address. That is a good example of the Minister for Justice fulfilling his responsibility to manage our border. But no Minister has the power to impose 14 days of isolation on a broad class of people (e.g. visitors to our shores). That's not just my opinion - no one seriously claims this Government has such powers, they just ignore the problem and hope it gets fixed soon.

    Until we get an elected Taoiseach, Leo will be like the Wizard of Oz, busily turning the dials to project an image of omnipotence while hoping no one will draw back the curtain. He is safe for the moment because the media believe the parties will sort it out soon, which may work out but many's the slip...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Damian F


    It is mad seeing senior and Junior ministers who ceased been TDs 4 months ago in the dail carrying on business as usual, some of these Junior ministers didn't even stand for reelection.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Damian F wrote: »
    It is mad seeing senior and Junior ministers who ceased been TDs 4 months ago in the dail carrying on business as usual, some of these Junior ministers didn't even stand for reelection.

    Well, nobody has decided to remove them and replace them.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Victor wrote: »
    Well, nobody has decide to remove them and replace them.

    That is exactly my complaint. We elected a new Dail 16 weeks ago but they still haven't elected a Taoiseach so we're stuck with the crew we voted out.

    We have never had such an interregnum and the Ministers who resigned in February are still leading us through an unprecedented crisis (when they're not hiding behind medical experts). The government were right to act quickly in March - what a pity they didn't shut down flights to northern Italy earlier - but this is the June Bank Holiday and they are making a pig's ear of relaxing the restrictions. Just look at our beaches this weekend. Hardware v. homeware, no Leaving Cert. , 14 days isolation after you take the airport bus to Cork or Galway (but not Belfast?). The Taoiseach has to leave the Dail chamber after two hours.

    The Minister for Social Protection, who now represents no one, has just got the Dáil to approve (without a vote!) a Revised Estimate for the Department of Social Protection of over €28 billion. Ah shure, make it Thirty Billion, Regina, and I'll stand the next round when the Dail Bar re-opens!

    Because it's all borrowed money - imagine the commotion if she realised her political career was over and had the honesty to ask our TDs to increase taxes or cut spending elsewhere to pay for this largesse! After all the hassle she had over some unpaid creditors, she'd have the pleasure of asking her opponents who they expected for pay for their generosity with public funds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Caquas wrote: »
    That is exactly my complaint. We elected a new Dail 16 weeks ago but they still haven't elected a Taoiseach so we're stuck with the crew we voted out.

    We have never had such an interregnum and the Ministers who resigned in February are still leading us through an unprecedented crisis (when they're not hiding behind medical experts). The government were right to act quickly in March - what a pity they didn't shut down flights to northern Italy earlier - but this is the June Bank Holiday and they are making a pig's ear of relaxing the restrictions. Just look at our beaches this weekend. Hardware v. homeware, no Leaving Cert. , 14 days isolation after you take the airport bus to Cork or Galway (but not Belfast?). The Taoiseach has to leave the Dail chamber after two hours.

    The Minister for Social Protection, who now represents no one, has just got the Dáil to approve (without a vote!) a Revised Estimate for the Department of Social Protection of over €28 billion. Ah shure, make it Thirty Billion, Regina, and I'll stand the next round when the Dail Bar re-opens!

    Because it's all borrowed money - imagine the commotion if she realised her political career was over and had the honesty to ask our TDs to increase taxes or cut spending elsewhere to pay for this largesse! After all the hassle she had over some unpaid creditors, she'd have the pleasure of asking her opponents who they expected for pay for their generosity with public funds.

    I see constitutional experts have weighed in on these issues. In short, it seems that the acting Government had full legal authority but the Senate could not operate because an acting Taoiseach cannot appoint Senators.

    My point was that the “acting Government” lacked political authority because it lost the general election. Imagine if FG were not in government now - every day we would hear the government blaming the “acting Government” for mishandling the pandemic last year and FG would be shouting “I told you so” every time the current government put a foot wrong.

    We squeaked past the problem last year (though I still expect some speculative legal challenges to legislation passed during that period). This problem will recur because our political system is fractured- the two traditional parties of government are trapped in a loveless marriage unless SF becomes an acceptable coalition partner.

    https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=202110105020064070025094098001127000020086089012039042073006092074073101073068068088018007127038053121097001082072078005006098042071071006015065127073100094007021019008017043123031107085075001002007126000002099092080004093126118125005021023069007117096&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE

    Legal glitches raised by delay in forming current government ‘need to be resolved’ https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/legal-glitches-raised-by-delay-in-forming-current-government-need-to-be-resolved-40278753.html


Advertisement