Are we a bit to hard on ourselves as a country?

Feisar · 17-02-2020 4:02pm #1

Are we a bit hard on ourselves as a nation I wonder? 150 years ago we were dying in the ditches, we're not doing that bad in fairness. The rest of our European brethren were colonial powers while we were in pretty bad shape! Look at eastern Europe that many would see as being second tier in some regards, the old money is clear to be seen.
In terms of infrastructure for example around the same time we were without a spud the London Underground started.

Please don't see this as Brit bashing in terms of why we were where we were. For whatever reason we were in the gutter and have come a long way in my estimation.

Any thoughts?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 17-02-2020 4:05pm

I think we’ve come a very long way but gone too far in the other direction now. I see us as a very greedy nation and that can be seen in house prices, rental prices, the cost of construction is quadruple what it is in many other European countries and there seems to be no stopping it.

Thelonious Monk · 17-02-2020 4:09pm

Well somehow we managed to get things done in the past. I was looking at the route of the Royal Canal which goes all the way from Central Dublin to Longford, such a huge project at the time and we don't seem to be able to do anything here now except build motorways. Even the Georgian parts of Dublin and many of the older areas are all so well done, and we haven't done so well since. I wish the Brits had stayed around a bit longer to get a few more things done tbh, a nice metro and more trams.
But yes, we are doing ok now, we are lucky in that we speak English and are white and have ties with many of the richer countries in the world, all that goes in our favour.

Rothko · 17-02-2020 4:33pm

There's definitely far too much self-loathing about our country, especially on Boards.

Fritzbox · 17-02-2020 4:42pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

...I wish the Brits had stayed around a bit longer to get a few more things done tbh, a nice metro and more trams...

I know of only 3 cities in the UK that have Metro systems. Nearly all cities (except Blackpool) in the UK shut down their old tram systems in the 1940s and fifties - it wasn't just Dublin.

topper75 · 17-02-2020 4:52pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well somehow we managed to get things done in the past. I was looking at the route of the Royal Canal which goes all the way from Central Dublin to Longford, such a huge project at the time and we don't seem to be able to do anything here now except build motorways.

I suppose we have to be mindful that there were a few large landholders to win over back then rather than lots of small ones for the Georgian canal projects.
Labour was piss cheap back. Loads of starving bucks around with no welfare entitlements who will cart blocks for you all day for a penny to feed the childer. Albeit material movement wasn't mechanised like it was for the motorways.

Yes we have come a long way. But such are small countries. The needle swings far in both directions. The potato blight hit everywhere else too. I didn't stop at the Irish sea. Just the magnitude of devastation bigger here. Same principle with the upswings.

Rufeo · 18-02-2020 12:23am

We're not nearly hard enough.

Raconteuse · 18-02-2020 1:47am

Rufeo wrote: »

We're not nearly hard enough.

Disagreed very much. Major inferiority complex going on here. The Irish were looked down upon for a long time, and I think that has been internalised to an extent.

[Deleted User] · 18-02-2020 1:50am

Raconteuse wrote: »

Disagreed very much. Major inferiority complex going on here. The Irish were looked down upon for a long time, and I think that has been internalised to an extent.

I was talking to a guy a couple of weeks ago, who had spent 10 or so years living in the north of England, and he said there's a kind of heaviness about people in Ireland that just isn't there in the English..

Thethunder · 18-02-2020 1:57am

What sort of a question is that? Like what does it even mean.

pgj2015 · 18-02-2020 1:59am

Raconteuse wrote: »

Disagreed very much. Major inferiority complex going on here. The Irish were looked down upon for a long time, and I think that has been internalised to an extent.

i agree 100%. look at the way a lot of Irish people will only watch the uk versions of the apprentice, dragons den,gogglebox, british tv in general and run down the Irish versions.

"its a bit Irish" is something Irish people say to describe something that isnt done in the right way.

JustAThought · 18-02-2020 2:20am

pgj2015 wrote: »

"its a bit Irish" is something Irish people say to describe something that isnt done in the right way.

And they’re 100% right.We have brains to burn in this country and are as obstinate as a nation as we want to be - but apart from Free the Guilford Four and Water Tax protests and the organised farmers we take any owl shyte thrown at us and accept it,. We have never marched en masse as a nation against he corruption, the lying, utter waste or myriad of scandals including crime, our revolving criminal justice farce, endless assylum applications, handout society of lifelong wasters, the ateady crucifixation of the middle class, paying 2 weeks out of every four in tax, abysmal transport and 3 1/2 hour commutes to 1950 style boxes, sewage fliwing into the sea, trees and habitats casually felled in our cities and no proper planning for habitats/lifestyles/happiness etc. We have one of the most educated workforces in the planet yet we allow gombeenism and cronyism to be the order of the day, every day and every year. We are not hard enough on ourselves at all. It is harrowing what an absolute waste this once proud nation has become . We are a pitiful crawling servile disgrace of nation. God forbid they ever take away our pubs or pints or tellies - the mess of what is left would be crippling.

AllForIt · 18-02-2020 2:38am

I think the biggest problem is that we are associating ourselves too much with the UK and US world/economies, and as a result we owe reparations to the wider globe. Just because we have a few high-tech companies residing here. Yes they have transformed our country - but, we are not living in a economic utopia, are we.

I think that with all the good things that have happened socially over the last 10 years, we need to calm down and try to be ourselves now. I feel we are in danger of loosing our national identity by associating ourselves with other western countries. A pawn of them in fact.

I don't think this small state of what 4 million, should be forced to act as we are the big white capitalist aggressors of the world. We haven't invaded a single country historically, we haven't raped the resources of other nations, we are probably the least racist country of the white western countries, and yet, we are made to feel as if the opposite is the case. So yes I agree with you OP, we are way too hard on ourselves.

Raconteuse · 18-02-2020 4:14am

Raconteuse wrote: »

Major inferiority complex going on here. The Irish were looked down upon for a long time, and I think that has been internalised to an extent.

E.g.

JustAThought wrote: »

And they’re 100% right.We have brains to burn in this country and are as obstinate as a nation as we want to be - but apart from Free the Guilford Four and Water Tax protests and the organised farmers we take any owl shyte thrown at us and accept it,. We have never marched en masse as a nation against he corruption, the lying, utter waste or myriad of scandals including crime, our revolving criminal justice farce, endless assylum applications, handout society of lifelong wasters, the ateady crucifixation of the middle class, paying 2 weeks out of every four in tax, abysmal transport and 3 1/2 hour commutes to 1950 style boxes, sewage fliwing into the sea, trees and habitats casually felled in our cities and no proper planning for habitats/lifestyles/happiness etc. We have one of the most educated workforces in the planet yet we allow gombeenism and cronyism to be the order of the day, every day and every year. We are not hard enough on ourselves at all. It is harrowing what an absolute waste this once proud nation has become . We are a pitiful crawling servile disgrace of nation. God forbid they ever take away our pubs or punts or tellies - the mess of what is left would be crippling.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 18-02-2020 5:13am

I just wish we could be a bit more proactive as a country sometimes. More big picture thinking, and better planning for the future.

I think it's a good country overall, and not a bad place to live in general... but we always seem to be reactive to things. What I mean by this, is that we seem to stumble into problems and not take them seriously enough... and then we are playing catch up all the time!

Some of the social issues that are effecting our country, could and should have been better forecasted and prepared for. But I do think we have a lot of people that care about each other in this country, and there is motivation to do the right things when we do identify problems!

Perhaps it's a slight flaw in our nature or something? We are a laid-back easy going type of people, and generally we seem to prefer to focus mostly on the present.

Also, I wish people would moan less about the weather... it's really not that bad. We are actually very lucky to have no extreme dangerous weather. Rather than complaining about it, we should actually promote our mild climate as one of the best features of this country to tourists. "Come to Ireland... you won't die in a tornado/earthquake/hurricane/tsunami/landslide/heat wave/drought/snowstorm/wildfire/cyclone/"... :pac:

[Deleted User] · 18-02-2020 8:16am

CQD wrote: »

I was talking to a guy a couple of weeks ago, who had spent 10 or so years living in the north of England, and he said there's a kind of heaviness about people in Ireland that just isn't there in the English..

100 per cent agree. We like to portray an image of being up for the craic but as a people we are generally quite wooden and uptight.

Was talking to a South African who went to watch Ireland v S.A. in Aviva and they couldn't believe how placid and wooden the fans were it was like a library apparently.

j8wk2feszrnpao · 18-02-2020 8:29am

Feisar wrote: »

Are we a bit hard on ourselves as a nation I wonder?

Yes.
We have issues and faults, which country doesn’t. But having done an extensive amount of travelling, we’ve got a very good setup here, in particular once you venture outside of Western nations.
Nothing wrong with wanting to improve, and there are issues to address, but a lot of people just like to have a b1tch and moan.

citysights · 18-02-2020 8:47am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

100 per cent agree. We like to portray an image of being up for the craic but as a people we are generally quite wooden and uptight.

Was talking to a South African who went to watch Ireland v S.A. in Aviva and they couldn't believe how placid and wooden the fans were it was like a library apparently.

It wasn’t always like that though people used to be more fun and there was more wittiness about people, crack a joke, have a laugh. Still around but less so I think, maybe it has been educated out of people that little spark, almost as if people are afraid to let themselves go. In older people not so much they are more themselves, less pc and some could literally light up a room.

[Deleted User] · 18-02-2020 8:55am

citysights wrote: »

It wasn’t always like that though people used to be more fun and there was more wittiness about people, crack a joke, have a laugh. Still around but less so I think, maybe it has been educated out of people that little spark, almost as if people are afraid to let themselves go. In older people not so much they are more themselves, less pc and some could literally light up a room.

You could be right about this actually. Maybe it is that thing of overcompensating that we do so well in Ireland.

[Deleted User] · 18-02-2020 9:01am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

. I wish the Brits had stayed around a bit longer to get a few more things done tbh, a nice metro and more trams.

Dublin and Cork both had an extensive tram network. We also had the most comprehensive rail network in Europe at the turn of the century. Our great patriots destroyed it all.

[Deleted User] · 18-02-2020 9:12am

We have made great progress economically and as a society. There is definitely less craic than before but also less madness so that's probaby a wash.

I do think we get worked up over the wrong things. FG actually did a great job turning the country around from bankruptcy, and kept social welfare largely intact, while hammering the working people, yet the Shinners got a huge vote in the recent election, whose policies will further hammer those same working people.

Similarly for water charges - now it comes out of "general taxation". Who pays for that? The idiots getting up early in the morning.

The homeless "crisis".... The government spends a fortune on this already, both directly and indirectly, yet its still a huge problem. In Cork for example they have a bed for every homeless person but many still sleep rough, we need to ask "why", not throw more money at it. It's a management and governance problem, not a money problem.

Similarly with health, again a management problem.

We need to demand better value for the taxpayers money.

citysights · 18-02-2020 9:16am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You could be right about this actually. Maybe it is that thing of overcompensating that we do so well in Ireland.

Yes I think so loads of unexpressed feelings hidden beneath the pc exterior.

Hello 2D Person Below · 18-02-2020 9:32am

Deleted User wrote: »

100 per cent agree. We like to portray an image of being up for the craic but as a people we are generally quite wooden and uptight.

Was talking to a South African who went to watch Ireland v S.A. in Aviva and they couldn't believe how placid and wooden the fans were it was like a library apparently.

It was a glorified exhibition game. What the **** were they expecting, the place to be like Italia 90?

We do overstate our craic at times but we're hardly German.

Mr Tickle · 18-02-2020 10:16am

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

"Come to Ireland... you won't die in a tornado/earthquake/hurricane/tsunami/landslide/heat wave/drought/snowstorm/wildfire/cyclone/"... :pac:

only in our health service

EmmetSpiceland · 18-02-2020 11:12am

We are certainly very “sensitive” to any criticism.
There seems to be an innate ability not to let anything go.

BanditLuke · 18-02-2020 11:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

We have made great progress economically and as a society. There is definitely less craic than before but also less madness so that's probaby a wash.

I do think we get worked up over the wrong things. FG actually did a great job turning the country around from bankruptcy, and kept social welfare largely intact, while hammering the working people, yet the Shinners got a huge vote in the recent election, whose policies will further hammer those same working people.

Similarly for water charges - now it comes out of "general taxation". Who pays for that? The idiots getting up early in the morning.

The homeless "crisis".... The government spends a fortune on this already, both directly and indirectly, yet its still a huge problem. In Cork for example they have a bed for every homeless person but many still sleep rough, we need to ask "why", not throw more money at it. It's a management and governance problem, not a money problem.

Similarly with health, again a management problem.

We need to demand better value for the taxpayers money.

What's the craic Leo?

JohnnyFlash · 18-02-2020 11:18am

BanditLuke wrote: »

What's the craic Leo?

We have an escapee from the comments section of the Journal.

[Deleted User] · 18-02-2020 11:48am

I don't Irish people are being too hard on themselves as a country because to grow and adapt to change, we must be able to ask the hard questions, and criticise those parts which we're not satisfied with. Just saying "it'll be grand" leads to constantly reacting to change, whereas being active by questioning the status quo leads to more decision making.

I find that Ireland needs to do more long-term planning rather than focusing so much on the short term. To determine what might change over time rather than simply looking at the initial benefits of the change. And I do feel that Ireland needs to be harder on itself when it comes to politics and demand something better rather than accepting it as it is. Turning to SF for change isn't the answer either. More serious thought needs to be initiated about what we want for the future, and movement towards bringing that better system into being.

I think Ireland, as a country, has done well at different periods, whereas at other times, it's shown that little has changed at all.

So, no. I don't think Irish people are too hard on themselves as a country.

pgj2015 · 18-02-2020 12:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We have made great progress economically and as a society. There is definitely less craic than before but also less madness so that's probaby a wash.

I do think we get worked up over the wrong things. FG actually did a great job turning the country around from bankruptcy, and kept social welfare largely intact, while hammering the working people, yet the Shinners got a huge vote in the recent election, whose policies will further hammer those same working people.

Similarly for water charges - now it comes out of "general taxation". Who pays for that? The idiots getting up early in the morning.

The homeless "crisis".... The government spends a fortune on this already, both directly and indirectly, yet its still a huge problem. In Cork for example they have a bed for every homeless person but many still sleep rough, we need to ask "why", not throw more money at it. It's a management and governance problem, not a money problem.

Similarly with health, again a management problem.

We need to demand better value for the taxpayers money.

I agree and people didnt protest about the insurance rip off which is going on here for years. less than 100 people turned up for the protest in Dublin a few years ago even though everyone i talked to said they were going, none of them did.

Church on Tuesday · 18-02-2020 12:30pm

CQD wrote: »

I was talking to a guy a couple of weeks ago, who had spent 10 or so years living in the north of England, and he said there's a kind of heaviness about people in Ireland that just isn't there in the English..

The English are generally more confident.

They have come up through a different education system to us and with no yolk of Catholic shame.

Which is a shame really because we arguably have more to be proud of.

[Deleted User] · 18-02-2020 3:04pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

The English are generally more confident.

They have come up through a different education system to us and with no yolk of Catholic shame.

Which is a shame really because we arguably have more to be proud of.

I think the fact that we are a small population on an island contributes to a conformist society where shame and peer pressure used to keep everyone on the same page. The church might have had something to do with this also. This is changing as the population gets more urbanised and society gets more fragmented.

Are we a bit to hard on ourselves as a country?

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