Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 7:12pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

https://www.rugbypass.com/

ok all the stats there all of them. Even carries, passes. In black and white. all your poor analysis and backing of the wrong horse and your heroes, is there.

you'll also notice how the top line cc players played **** all pro 14, which somehow is being used as a yardstick to the health of irish rugby. even though they barely play in it.

This all started with somebody saying it was bizarre.

Yes its totally bizarre to take Zebo, SOB , Madigan, and perhaps Aki into consideration. GUBU indeed.

None of the naysayers have offered anything but anecdotal whataboutery. Irish rugby would die etc....how? lower attendances, losses, financial...how? The pyramid is now so loaded again towards the irish team that does it really matter where they play? I'd go down and watch Scott Penny, Kelleher, et al any day over Kearney, Earls whoever. Its like the RTE "stars" argument. Sure nobody would be queuing up for some of these lads. Others over a certain number deserve the payoff and it frees up space. And if it lessers the depth then start looking among the 1500 players that play below that. They found Balacounne, McCLoskey handy enough no? They can afford not to contract Kennedy, Conroy, Dardis.

I have no idea what this ramble is about. As I said, if you hate rugby stay away from it. It is better for your health to stay away from things you dont like.....

Not sure what RTE has to do with this either? are you talking about sticking Tubs on the wing?

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 7:14pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have no idea what this ramble is about. As I said, if you hate rugby stay away from it. It is better for your health to stay away from things you dont like.....

Not sure what RTE has to do with this either? are you talking about sticking Tubs on the wing?

jaysis

You said wales online wasn't a source, so i've provided u with a better one. both ignored. Rugby pass debunks most of what you posted during the World Cup as well, particularly in regards to how Joe and Ireland played the game.

The CC contract lads are paid huge money when in reality would they really command it overseas? Like Tubs and others in RTE being scouted by the beeb etc. It was the lad who the IRFU lowballed who got the big money.

CJ Stander offered 800k by Montpellier apparently? far fetched no for a one dimensional average international

aloooof · 14-11-2019 7:19pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

jaysis

You said wales online wasn't a source, so i've provided u with a better one. both ignored. Rugby pass debunks most of what you posted during the World Cup as well, particularly in regards to how Joe and Ireland played the game.

The CC contract lads are paid huge money when in reality would they really command it overseas? Like Tubs and others in RTE being scouted by the beeb etc.

CJ Stander offered 800k by Montpellier apparently? far fetched no for a one dimensional average international

So you’re now arguing the IRFU are paying more to players than they’d command in France in England??

You’re claims keep getting increasingly bewildering. And inaccurate.

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 7:21pm

aloooof wrote: »

So you’re now arguing the IRFU are playing more to players than they’d command in France in England??

You’re claims keep getting increasingly bewildering. And inaccurate.

sure. You think Earls would command top dollar right now?

aloooof · 14-11-2019 7:22pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

sure. You think Earls would command top dollar right now?

He’d command more than he’d get at Munster, yes.

molloyjh · 14-11-2019 7:33pm

I obviously ventured back in here WAY too soon.

At least I didnt Venjur in here though I suppose....

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 7:34pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I obviously ventured back in here WAY too soon.

At least I didnt Venjur in here though I suppose....

We have sorted it,

We are sticking Tubs on the wing and Ray Darcy in the centre :P:P

Squidgy Black · 14-11-2019 7:45pm

Will Addison's dog is getting pretty big I heard. Lovely coat on him.

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 7:51pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Will Addison's dog is getting pretty big I heard. Lovely coat on him.

He would want to keep him on a leash when feeding the ducks

salmocab · 14-11-2019 7:53pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Will Addison's dog is getting pretty big I heard. Lovely coat on him.

Did we ever get a name?

aloooof · 14-11-2019 7:53pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Will Addison's dog is getting pretty big I heard. Lovely coat on him.

Awaiting one poster to come on and tell us he’s a cat...

Niallof9 · 14-11-2019 9:21pm

Faugheen wrote: »

So you’re going back on your bollocks that the derbies have been ‘destroyed by player protocols’? Good to know.

If the big players aren’t playing every week then fringe players get the chance to play and make their mark. You’ve been pinching yourself with excitement over Ronan Kelleher but he wouldn’t have a chance if we didn’t have the player management systems in place and we had Cronin playing every week.

Do you want younger lads getting a chance or do you want the big players playing every week? You’ve argued for both cases in the last couple of hours.

Again, you keep arguing for the sake of arguing and it’s got to the point whether you don’t know if you want one thing or the other.

The whole argument was in regards to moving abroad in conjunction with central deals. Somebody said Irish rugby would die if they didn’t perform in the pro 14. Cc players are playing 8 or 9 games in it so how is that.

But as people like yourself love to say the player will break through if good enough. And Kelleher is quite clearly good enough, I’m not pinching myself I’m just living in reality, the lad is clearly a player. Meanwhile you live in a world where vdf is better than Leavy. Ya sure

In an ideal world Cronin would be munsters starting hooker as scannell is bang average. But What are you talking about me arguing for both, I’m saying many of the big players are the big cc contracts I’m saying should be shifted or at least challenged to perform. Not allowed dabble in and out.

But no they are mollycoddled on great gigs while others get shafted. I don’t want some of them playing if they aren’t performing. And how can some prove performance if they aren’t playing? And how can others prove themselves if they get dropped for a big name in the big matches regardless of form.. i wouldn’t have some of the big names in there. Some pick themselves. Some of the young lads aren’t ready. Stander, Murray, there’s no alternatives really. But that’s the crux, does that then guarantee them an Irish contract. The chicken and egg of Irish rugby imo.

I don’t agree with it, the best players at that moment should be playing. Larmour, Conway against NZ. It’s a simple concept which I understand you and many if not most don’t agree with. But we should stop wondering why we fail at world cups then.

Faugheen · 14-11-2019 10:17pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

The whole argument was in regards to moving abroad in conjunction with central deals. Somebody said Irish rugby would die if they didn’t perform in the pro 14. Cc players are playing 8 or 9 games in it so how is that.

Nobody said ‘Irish Rugby would die’ if they didn’t perform in the Pro14, just that Irish Rugby relies on the provinces to perform in it, which is true. If they don’t perform, they don’t get into Europe. Not rocket science.

Niallof9 wrote: »

But as people like yourself love to say the player will break through if good enough. And Kelleher is quite clearly good enough, I’m not pinching myself I’m just living in reality, the lad is clearly a player. Meanwhile you live in a world where vdf is better than Leavy. Ya sure

You don’t read your own posts never mind anyone else’s. Kelleher has been allowed to come to the fore because of the protocol’s around the internationals. What more do you want? The internationals to play every week?

Don’t you dare talk to me about my thoughts of Leavy playing at 6 and VDF at 7 when you literally name checked Robin Copeland as someone who was hard done by under the Schmidt era and made loads of false claims which have been annihilated by those who know what they’re talking about.

Niallof9 wrote: »

In an ideal world Cronin would be munsters starting hooker as scannell is bang average. But What are you talking about me arguing for both, I’m saying many of the big players are the big cc contracts I’m saying should be shifted or at least challenged to perform. Not allowed dabble in and out.

The **** has Cronin starting for Munster got to do with anything?

Niallof9 wrote: »

But no they are mollycoddled on great gigs while others get shafted. I don’t want some of them playing if they aren’t performing. And how can some prove performance if they aren’t playing? And how can others prove themselves if they get dropped for a big name in the big matches regardless of form.. i wouldn’t have some of the big names in there. Some pick themselves. Some of the young lads aren’t ready. Stander, Murray, there’s no alternatives really. But that’s the crux, does that then guarantee them an Irish contract. The chicken and egg of Irish rugby imo.

And your solution is to send them off to France or England? And dilute the provinces? Seriously you’re moving the goalposts so many times and then play the victim when you’re challenged.

Niallof9 wrote: »

I don’t agree with it, the best players at that moment should be playing. Larmour, Conway against NZ. It’s a simple concept which I understand you and many if not most don’t agree with. But we should stop wondering why we fail at world cups then.

I agree the best players should be playing. I already told you I agreed with Conway, but you went on a crusade against Kearney when Larmour had shown nothing until the RWC to warrant taking the jersey. Both Kearney and Larmour were playing well. It was a tough decision but to say Larmour 100% should have started is pure opinion, however you saying Kearney wasn’t playing well is completely lazy and just plain wrong.

aloooof · 14-11-2019 10:17pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

I don’t agree with it, the best players at that moment should be playing. Larmour, Conway against NZ. It’s a simple concept which I understand you and many if not most don’t agree with. But we should stop wondering why we fail at world cups then.

There’s merit to the argument that Larmour and Conway should have started, I’ve no disagreement with you there.

But that wasn’t your argument. You said they didn’t start because players on central contracts have clauses guaranteeing them selection. Which is just not true.

We’re going round in circles here.

jacothelad · 14-11-2019 10:17pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think you need to put on a tin foil hat......

Why would he need another one?

WeleaseWoderick · 14-11-2019 10:55pm

Not really sure I follow the logic in letting the big name players go overseas. Supposedly they play too few games as it is for their provinces, so surely that means the players coming through get plenty of gametime already?

I'm also not sure where there's any real bottleneck at provincial level? Maybe Leinster backrow but the attrition there in the past number of years means there is rarely a full deck to choose from anyway.

Faugheen · 14-11-2019 10:57pm

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

Not really sure I follow the logic in letting the big name players go overseas. Supposedly they play too few games as it is for their provinces, so surely that means the players coming through get plenty of gametime already?

I'm also not sure where there's any real bottleneck at provincial level? Maybe Leinster backrow but the attrition there in the past number of years means there is rarely a full deck to choose from anyway.

G’way you with your logic.

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 10:58pm

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

Not really sure I follow the logic in letting the big name players go overseas. Supposedly they play too few games as it is for their provinces, so surely that means the players coming through get plenty of gametime already?

I'm also not sure where there's any real bottleneck at provincial level? Maybe Leinster backrow but the attrition there in the past number of years means there is rarely a full deck to choose from anyway.

Seemingly we have a massive array of players knocking around in AIL who are fit to play European rugby at a similar level to the current players at the provinces...

Seems strange to me as a number of Irish players who have shown promise have moved to UK and now the US leagues to get a chance,,,,,,

Yeah_Right · 14-11-2019 11:17pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

yeah i hate rugby do i? you know me now do you? Do you play yourself still? cos i'd love to know if you fancy coming up training some day i could give you a club and a date and you can test my love for the game, within the four corners of a pitch of course

You are clearly passionate about Irish rugby. You are involved in rugby and you are fairly knowledgeable about the sport. Some of your posts I agree with, some make me think and some I disagree with.

But this post I have quoted, is a dickhead post. And I'll happily take a card for saying that so go ahead and report me.

Shefwedfan · 14-11-2019 11:48pm

So with Europe this weekend do we think Farrell will show up to 1, 2 or more games? Depending on logistics of course

Niallof9 · 15-11-2019 12:00am

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You are clearly passionate about Irish rugby. You are involved in rugby and you are fairly knowledgeable about the sport. Some of your posts I agree with, some make me think and some I disagree with.

But this post I have quoted, is a dickhead post. And I'll happily take a card for saying that so go ahead and report me.

Thats fair but personally im sick of some of the debate on here. Posters saying people hate rugby. Calling any dissenting voice nonsense, or bizarre. Frankly i do wonder why i'm bothering ill go back lurking. Life is too short. I hate rugby cos i dared suggest a more open policy...

You'd swear we didnt just have a complete cluster****, one that many on here predicted and suggested reasons and alternatives.people twisting words qputing stuff that a wasnt said and b evidence was offered etc. And the rrplies not only are seemeingly in denial that its happened but also personal in the replies.

Anyway screw it will be all change in a few weeks so who cares about the past.

Things like vdf is better than leavy or kearney was the right choice are good for chuckles. Hopefully some ppl can chuckle at what they see as my ill formed logic.

Im enjoying the kelleher needs to start the big games, and ryan is too young to captain lines currently.

So no worries ill lay down and wave the white flag.

We're all irish rugby supporters arguing for the betterment of irish rugby. None of us have the answers. I argued one side and yeah im aware its an outlier. I never said irish players have clauses, i said whos to say their isn't. And 99.9 per cent likdly there isnt.

I also didnt argue a certain 6 was good enough but i was told Joe didnt fancy the funny act by ppl in the club. And if u follow the logic it spplies to others, which leads us back to the question of undroppables. So if pppl misrepresent what i said fair enough next time i wont come up with a dickish reply.

Anyway i look forward to reading some stuff, alot of passionate posters.

Hopefully some of the knowledgable lads can come back in.

Ill finish by saying i think its a mistake Farrell hasnt spoken yet but i've heard that there is reason to be excited. Big changes are coming.

Btw this all started with the Aki moving abroad...that its good for Irish rugby to open it up.

On balance as many have argued successfully its not. I concede..but i will always have doubts over what i see as our self imposed lack of depth, central contracts and the undroppable ethos Ireland has had for years and years.

Shefwedfan · 15-11-2019 5:59am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Thats fair but personally im sick of some of the debate on here. Posters saying people hate rugby. Calling any dissenting voice nonsense, or bizarre. Frankly i do wonder why i'm bothering ill go back lurking. Life is too short. I hate rugby cos i dared suggest a more open policy...

You'd swear we didnt just have a complete cluster****, one that many on here predicted and suggested reasons and alternatives.people twisting words qputing stuff that a wasnt said and b evidence was offered etc. And the rrplies not only are seemeingly in denial that its happened but also personal in the replies.

Anyway screw it will be all change in a few weeks so who cares about the past.

Things like vdf is better than leavy or kearney was the right choice are good for chuckles. Hopefully some ppl can chuckle at what they see as my ill formed logic.

Im enjoying the kelleher needs to start the big games, and ryan is too young to captain lines currently.

So no worries ill lay down and wave the white flag.

We're all irish rugby supporters arguing for the betterment of irish rugby. None of us have the answers. I argued one side and yeah im aware its an outlier. I never said irish players have clauses, i said whos to say their isn't. And 99.9 per cent likdly there isnt.

I also didnt argue a certain 6 was good enough but i was told Joe didnt fancy the funny act by ppl in the club. And if u follow the logic it spplies to others, which leads us back to the question of undroppables. So if pppl misrepresent what i said fair enough next time i wont come up with a dickish reply.

Anyway i look forward to reading some stuff, alot of passionate posters.

Hopefully some of the knowledgable lads can come back in.

Ill finish by saying i think its a mistake Farrell hasnt spoken yet but i've heard that there is reason to be excited. Big changes are coming.

Btw this all started with the Aki moving abroad...that its good for Irish rugby to open it up.

On balance as many have argued successfully its not. I concede..but i will always have doubts over what i see as our self imposed lack of depth, central contracts and the undroppable ethos Ireland has had for years and years.

Everyone has an opinion, you think your right and everyone else is an idiot, if they don’t agree they get insults or vague threats

Stupid comments like “the knowledgeable lads” is just a childish dig to make out your opinion is better than others.....

You constantly post sweeping comments and then have nothing to back it up, no proper alternatives just throw everything out including the baby

I am just calling it as I see it, you seem to have a hatred towards everything irfu and your reaction was pure glee when the team failed at the WC. Even before the competition started you wanted to see the team fail

Sport is supposed to be fun, relaxation, off time. I used to watch soccer as well many years ago, I just didn’t enjoy it anymore so I stopped watching it.

As I said based on your comments here I would suggest it’s not healthy the attitude you have towards the Irish team so don’t watch it, if you hate everything about it then turn it off....life too short.....

aloooof · 15-11-2019 9:32am

Niallof9 wrote: »

people twisting words qputing stuff that a wasnt said and b evidence was offered etc....

I never said irish players have clauses, i said whos to say their isn't. And 99.9 per cent likdly there isnt....

So if pppl misrepresent what i said fair enough next time i wont come up with a dickish reply.

Twisting words, quoting stuff that wasn't said, and misrepresenting? Here's exactly what was said.

aloooof wrote: »

Sorry, what? Are you suggesting centrally contracted players have to be selected for Ireland?

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yes i am and i think you'll soon realise that with the first 6 nations team to start.

And don't give me Toner he was dropped.

Its a factor i think, who's to say there isn't clauses involved?

What did I twist, misquote or misrepresent there? You've been given 2 examples of players on central contracts who were not selected and you're still playing the victim. You're even now admitting it's 99.9% likely there isn't, but have still taken the hump when called out on it.

That's without even going near your takes on Robin Copeland and the IRFU paying players more than they'd command abroad.

You're tying yourself up in knots here.

Niallof9 · 15-11-2019 9:40am

I look forward to seeing you proven wrong, time and again in the coming weeks. It will warm the soul. Shefwed has been completely wrong throughout the world cup. I didn't insult anybody. I offered you to come training to see the passion i have for rugby. I am a coach with my club team. I meant put you through a fitness session! I apologise for that

But you're both very passionate about rugby so fair play. Maybe you guys are completely right.

Now lets all move on.

The idea that Irish players moving abroad is good for Irish rugby has been pretty much successfully debunked by many on here. And to re-iterate i only said maybe its up for discussion, maybe a 50 cap plus rule. Thats all.

aloooof · 15-11-2019 9:53am

Niallof9 wrote: »

I look forward to seeing you proven wrong, time and again in the coming weeks. It will warm the soul. Shefwed has been completely wrong throughout the world cup.

Every centrally contracted player could start versus Scotland in the 6 Nations and it still wouldn't prove you right. JackMcGrath and Devin Toner have proven you wrong tho.

Niallof9 wrote: »

I didn't insult anybody. I offered you to come training to see the passion i have for rugby. I am a coach with my club team. I meant put you through a fitness session! I apologise for that

Ya, I don't buy it, but fair play for apologising at least.

Niallof9 wrote: »

But you're both very passionate about rugby so fair play. Maybe you guys are completely right.

The idea that Irish players moving abroad is good for Irish rugby has been pretty much successfully debunked by many on here. And to re-iterate i only said maybe its up for discussion, maybe a 50 cap plus rule. Thats all.

You claimed far, far more than just that. If that was all you suggested, I don't think you'd have gotten nearly the same backlash.

Niallof9 wrote: »

Now lets all move on.

One thing I absolutely agree on, so I'm gonna leave it there too.

Niallof9 · 15-11-2019 10:04am

aloooof wrote: »

Every centrally contracted player could start versus Scotland in the 6 Nations and it still wouldn't prove you right.

Ya, I don't buy it, but fair play for apologising at least.

You claimed far, far more than just that. If that was all you suggested, I don't think you'd have gotten nearly the same backlash.

One thing I absolutely agree on, so I'm gonna leave it there too.

It was a position i took, and through a series posts i attempted to back it up through A) more knowledgeable folks than me,

stuff i've heard about Joe and his relationship with people who are deemed "funny characters" such as Cronin, Zebo and yes the obviously not good enough Copeland (was never my point that he should be selected) and C) some selection pointers such as Bowe (which you fairly argued against with McGrath, and i proffered Toner myself - but i countered with the idea that these two lads aren't "stars" ) and D) central contracts giving the incumbent an advantage in selection, a chicken and egg situation. Then when some counters came in about the pro 14, and ridiculing fair, as well as outlandish points, i attempted to justify that by pointing out how few games the front line guys get.

Then you tried to say i was arguing for both. I'm not. Anyway we are in a natural position of transition so its all wasted breath now. Come the Six Nations, if the same 15 somehow takes the field, yes i'll despair but i can wait now and i've heard from someone close to camp that Andy Farrell is completely different in approach. He's in regular contact with Stu Lancaster and even attends the same leadership workshops and all that. Larkham in Munster seems to be working too.

You often try to strike a low blow yourself insulting my posting style or whatnot, its happened twice at least. But fine do i whinge about that, no. You argue your position, i mine. I respect that.

None of us have time to really get into nitty grittys and full evidence. Rugby pass is a great stats site to back up some of the talk on here. Look at james Ryans numbers and then look at POM's numbers. It blows alot of the talk away about captaincy and actual performance. Its in black and white. Yet we have people still talk up super pete as captain ahead of Ryan. There's just no arguing against such entrenched positions. We had the Kearney debate on here for years. We still have people argue Zebo is pants even tho Racing pay 750 k for his services.

Joe did change his tune in the second part of his career and picked more on form and backed younger guys so that argument was gone. But we had the way Ireland play and people shouting down anybody with the temerity to suggest that its not the way to play.

so I really only got backlash from the sum total of three posters. But anyway you are a knowledgeable poster about rugby and we'll never agree so there's no point.

aloooof · 15-11-2019 10:48am

Niallof9 wrote: »

so I really only got backlash from the sum total of three posters.

But I didn't see many people agreeing with you either.

Niallof9 wrote: »

You often try to strike a low blow yourself insulting my posting style or whatnot, its happened twice at least. But fine do i whinge about that, no. You argue your position, i mine. I respect that.

Last thing I'll say on this is apologies, I don't mean any of my posts to be insulting, I just find some of your posts really long and difficult to follow at times.

Clegg · 15-11-2019 10:50am

This thread is a mess.

Well done to those concerned with making it so.

Shefwedfan · 15-11-2019 10:57am

Clegg wrote: »

This thread is a mess.

Well done to those concerned with making it so.

When I tried to move it off the WC and look towards the 6 nations, we all got a warning from a mod!!! so this sh*t storm followed!!! :P

salmocab · 15-11-2019 11:04am

Clegg wrote: »

This thread is a mess.

Well done to those concerned with making it so.

Amen

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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