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Universal basic income trial in Finland

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  • Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ Gordon Mango Pekinese


    Finland government is trying out a pilot idea at the moment and are giving 2000 of its citizens a minimum of 560euro per month, no conditions, doesn't even matter if you find a job or not you will still continue to receive the 560euro.

    What's your view?

    Who pays for it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,710 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Who pays for it?

    Government (which means ultimately the people/ tax payers of Finland I should imagine)


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,325 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Some form of it is coming any way its how advanced economies are evolving.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,948 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Which in turn means it's paid for by the taxpayers, who pay for governments.
    It's redistribution from the wealthy, who pay more tax, to the not-so-wealthy, who don't pay as much if any (depending on income). I don't have a problem with that.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    The big issue, in my opinion, is that at some stage a good number of the manual or minimum wage jobs will disappear. What do we do for the people who would normally take those jobs? UBI is the future, baby!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I imagine he would/should pay a lot more in tax than he would receive in UBI. Due to his income


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,948 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    That's the point, isn't it? But if tax rates are increased to fund UBI, which is likely, he'd end up paying more extra than he got from UBI. Assuming you can get him to pay his proper tax in the first place.

    UBI's been discussed and argued about for years, and I think by now we can say that the obvious objections have been considered and have been factored in. I do have some questions about the effect on immigration, namely that any country that introduces UBI on its own would become an immediate "economic migration" target, which means that it would have to exclude new immigrants just to avoid this. If it's to be given to everyone, then it would have to be a global initiative - which is not likely to happen.

    See also previous threads on UBI, here and here.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭donegaLroad


    It's an interesting idea, what is the logic behind it I wonder?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    It's an interesting idea, what is the logic behind it I wonder?

    Fairness and ease of administration.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    The Dole in Ireland is 187 a week in Ireland I believe which is 748 a month.

    This is without top ups such as fuel allowance etc

    This has unfortunately led to a segment of society who choose not to work which is generational.

    It should be on a sliding scale. Longer you are on it, less you get. Cutting a tenner a month for example to a minimum threshold.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,214 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    so?

    I'd imagine his taxes cover it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,214 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    It's an interesting idea, what is the logic behind it I wonder?

    fairness and tackling a parasitic welfare culture.




  • lawred2 wrote: »
    so?

    I'd imagine his taxes cover it.

    Bono? Paying taxes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,017 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    would that not be per week?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,214 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Bono? Paying taxes?

    Yes. Bono. Paying taxes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,703 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    lawred2 wrote:
    fairness and tackling a parasitic welfare culture.


    I'd argue there's more evidence that shows industries such as the financial and corporate sectors are far more parasitic to society


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,439 ✭✭✭brevity


    It's an interesting idea, what is the logic behind it I wonder?

    The machines are taking the unskilled jobs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭Rumpy Pumpy


    Excellent podcast on the Finnish experiment here:
    https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-finnish-experiment/

    By all accounts, the Finnish social welfare system is very generous as it is. A man can easily sustain a life drinking cheap lager and hitting the bong hourly on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    bnt wrote: »
    Which in turn means it's paid for by the taxpayers, who pay for governments.
    It's redistribution from the wealthy, who pay more tax, to the not-so-wealthy, who don't pay as much if any (depending on income). I don't have a problem with that.

    It's a redistribution of money from the working to those who can't find work those who don't want to work

    One of the many reasons why Switzerland overwhelmingly rejected the notion


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    Finland government is trying out a pilot idea at the moment and are giving 2000 of its citizens a minimum of 560euro per month, no conditions, doesn't even matter if you find a job or not you will still continue to receive the 560euro.

    What's your view?

    It's stupid.

    In a country of 5.5million people, choosing 2000 winners will have zero effect on tax rates. So the government is choosing 2000 winners, and no one will feel like a loser.

    These winners will have extra cash to pay for rent and food, without driving up the cost of rent and food overall (those 2000 people aren't suddenly going to create a national shortage of rent and food).

    So the pilot will appear to be successful. 2000 people are happier. It just won't prove anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    The only way for UBI to work is through some kind of money creation. Like QE, except for the peasants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    It's a redistribution of money from the working to those who can't find work those who don't want to work

    One of the many reasons why Switzerland overwhelmingly rejected the notion

    No, its also for people who work. I mean, do some research. Also the term universal should be a clue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    No, its also for people who work. I mean, do some research. Also the term universal should be a clue.

    It's for "people who work" in the tiny Finnish trial

    On a national level that would be a pyramid scheme. Earn a certain income, you'd be paying more in tax to cover UBI than you'd be receiving in UBI - therefore the working covering those who don't want to work


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,171 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    We have had universal basic income in Ireland for years. We're way ahead of the curve


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,703 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    The only way for UBI to work is through some kind of money creation. Like QE, except for the peasants.


    Could Steve keens idea of government money creation be the solution?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,067 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Excellent podcast on the Finnish experiment here:
    https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-finnish-experiment/

    By all accounts, the Finnish social welfare system is very generous as it is. A man can easily sustain a life drinking cheap lager and hitting the bong hourly on it.

    How much is it? because a can of beer there costs €2.5 doesn't it. It's one of the most expensive places in europe to drink.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Imagine a world where automation does 40% of jobs and will do 90% of jobs. And I dont mean that new jobs will be created in this scenario but that the unemployment rate will be 90%.

    Yet we potentially have a very efficient AI driven society. The problem is that without money nobody guys anything, and without people buying anything the AI will in fact not be very useful. Actually either society will collapse or automation will be banned.

    There are a few solutions here, a form of communism where the governments own the AI, and people get "according to their needs". I personally would not like that.

    Alternatively a capitalism with UBI might work. How money is created could be the problem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    It's for "people who work" in the tiny Finnish trial

    On a national level that would be a pyramid scheme. Earn a certain income, you'd be paying more in tax to cover UBI than you'd be receiving in UBI - therefore the working covering those who don't want to work

    Of course you will be paying more in tax on the higher levels but this would still be a universal benefit.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    It could either be a great success or bring about economic ruination.

    It will be very interesting to see how this trial goes. I will be watching with interest. But it is something we will have to examine. More and more machines will take the jobs of humans freeing up the population for more leisure or cultural activities.


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