Budget 2020, Another tenner or is it twenty

Hotblack Desiato · 09-10-2019 10:24am

Geuze wrote: »

We are not "taxed to the hilt".

Taxes here, as a share of GNI*, are about middling.

Not low, not high, about middling.

That's no good to the average worker.

Income tax is high. The threshold for the higher rate is very low.

VAT is high. Excise duty is very high.

Low corporation tax, executive tax relief etc. is no good to me.

As you said, middle-class over-70s with occupational pensions have it made in relation to tax relief alone, never mind all the ancillary benefits. Meanwhile families on lower incomes than them get totally screwed.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-10-2019 10:26am

rob316 wrote: »

I'll vote SF again in the next general election in the hope someone else finally gets a go. They could be a disaster but I'd atleast like to see something different.

Yeah let's f**k s**t up for the sake of it, worked out great so far with Trump and Brexit. :rolleyes:

Keyzer wrote: »

Does anyone actually know what the current €800M in foreign aid is spent on? Not trying to stoke up the fires, genuinely curious.

Thats a lot of tax payers money, €2B is a collosal amount of money.

Edit: found some information on the Irish aid site.
In 2017, a total of €743M was allocated to Irish aid.

Of that total, €181M was spent on humanitarian assistance - just shy of 25%.

Some of the poorest countries in the world received aid from Ireland - they got a couple of million each.

€192M were pumped into EU institutions with the EU commision providing €143M of this.

Before commenting that we're p1ssing away €800M quid a year on countries and people who don't deserve it, perhaps read the facts first.

Next to no detail there on what it's actualy spent on.

Keyzer · 09-10-2019 10:28am

blueshade wrote: »

Last year the EU Foreign Aid budget was 138 billion, 720 million of it was ''wasted'' one project was supposed to be for accessing food and nutrition, it accounted for 3% of the 720 million, turned out it was spent on a radio drama show instead. Some of it was spent on a giant pigsty for a Polish farm that wasn't entitled to anything. More of it was spent on fixing broken toilets in Haiti, some on installing computers in an empty office block in Jamaica and that's leaving off however much was siphoned off by corrupt officials and sent to their offshore accounts.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7552519/EU-squandered-millions-overseas-projects-year-including-paying-broken-toilets-Haiti.html

Lol, quotes the daily mail.... lol

Keyzer · 09-10-2019 10:29am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Next to no detail there on what it's actualy spent on.

Yes - there is. There is a detailed report on the irish aid website. Perhaps you should read it?

Edgware · 09-10-2019 10:30am

joeysoap wrote: »

Not alone that, you have to be long term on the dole. Out of work temporarily or short time don’t get it. The good citizens who are permanently unemployed do However quality.

I understand the pensioners getting it. Some of them mightn’t need it strictly speaking, but they put in the hard shift when there wasn’t much support.

A lot of these pensioners have been on the dole all their life before getting the old age pension. Check the flights going to the Canaries some day, full of pensioners. They're doing all right. Give them an extra fiver and they'll only use it to bribe the grandchildren to come around

scamalert · 09-10-2019 11:10am

Edgware wrote: »

A lot of these pensioners have been on the dole all their life before getting the old age pension. Check the flights going to the Canaries some day, full of pensioners. They're doing all right. Give them an extra fiver and they'll only use it to bribe the grandchildren to come around

this qualifies for most idiotic post of the year :cool:

Akabusi · 09-10-2019 11:40am

If you think this budget was bad, just wait until the next one, recession and possibly brexit to deal with. When combined with the corrupt decision to build the children's hospital in the city centre and the crazy rural broadband scheme which together will cost something like 6 billion euro, the opportunity has been lost for possibly the next ten years for real infrastructure and services which will better all our lives.

I agree both are needed but they could both easily be done for half that cost.

As climate change is such the topic now there was a great opportunity missed to use that 3 billion along with a bit more to concentrate on public transport and renewable energy.

They could purchase extra carriages as most or the dart and commuter services are already at max capacity. I get that there will be a lead time on these but that is why it should be done now. Extend the rail service out to Navan at least, its mad to think in 2019 that there is no rail service for the people of Monaghan, Cavan or Donegal.

The midland peat bogs offer ample area for wind turbines and PV, there are hundreds of acres where these renewables could be installed today and not affect anyone. Even if there was a one or two turbines put on the outskirts of towns what would be the harm? I was flying from Croatia to Germany a couple of weeks ago on a cloudless day and was amazed to see all the wind turbines as i flew across the Austrian and German countryside. Nimbyism must only be an Irish thing.

Some countries in Europe really put us to shame in how they do things. You know the way the Spanish send their kids to us in the summers to learn English, we should be sending our kids to Germany, The Netherlands and Sweden to see how things could be done right to benefit everyone. These countries are decades ahead of us in their thinking. We could and should be copying what these countries do so well.

Germany now produce 41% of their energy through a combination of wind solar and bio-mass. They also are testing overhead charging on sections of the autobahn for hybrid or electric trucks to charge whilst they are driving.

Holland are the world's second largest food exporter, just drive around Holland and see all the greenhouses, where we have our worst land that basically grows rushes could we not have grants to build greenhouses on it to intensively grow fruit and vegetables? Also Holland has the more bikes than people, they have separate cycle tracks along most roads. 20% of Dutch kids cycle to school.

Sweden has one of the best health, education and social care systems in the world. Yes they pay high taxes but they get value for money. Our healthcare system is broken and the only solution the politicians have is to throw more money into the black hole.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-10-2019 11:41am

Keyzer wrote: »

Yes - there is. There is a detailed report on the irish aid website. Perhaps you should read it?

Perhaps you should link to it?

Geuze · 09-10-2019 11:49am

lola85 wrote: »

The all party climate council wanted 15 euro per tonne.

It’s 6 euro per tonne.

That’s crazy, so all parties wanted 15??

The carbon tax is not new.

It was introduced years ago at 20 euro per tonne.

It has been increased from 20 to 26 per tonne.

The plan is to increase to 80 per tonne.

Geuze · 09-10-2019 11:52am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That's no good to the average worker.

Income tax is high. The threshold for the higher rate is very low.

VAT is high. Excise duty is very high.

Low corporation tax, executive tax relief etc. is no good to me.

As you said, middle-class over-70s with occupational pensions have it made in relation to tax relief alone, never mind all the ancillary benefits. Meanwhile families on lower incomes than them get totally screwed.

Overall, our income taxes are not high.

This has been shown again and again.

YES, the killer is that the top rate kicks in so early, at 35k.

VAT at 23% is a bit higher than typical across the EU, yes, although not the highest.

Our lower rate of VAT at 13.5% is also among the higher lower rates, yes.

Our excise on beer is similar to the UK.

Our fuel taxes are not the highest.

Our PRSI is very, very low.

Stevieluvsye · 09-10-2019 11:54am

Geuze wrote: »

Overall, our income taxes are not high.

This has been shown again and again.

YES, the killer is that the top rate kicks in so early, at 35k.

VAT at 23% is a bit higher than typical across the EU, yes, although not the highest.

Our lower rate of VAT at 13.5% is also among the higher lower rates, yes.

Our excise on beer is similar to the UK.

Our fuel taxes are not the highest.

Our PRSI is very, very low.

We get fcuk all back for that though. Just change the name to PAYE and be done with PRSI

marcos_94 · 09-10-2019 12:14pm

Akabusi wrote: »

If you think this budget was bad, just wait until the next one, recession and possibly brexit to deal with. When combined with the corrupt decision to build the children's hospital in the city centre and the crazy rural broadband scheme which together will cost something like 6 billion euro, the opportunity has been lost for possibly the next ten years for real infrastructure and services which will better all our lives.

I agree both are needed but they could both easily be done for half that cost.

As climate change is such the topic now there was a great opportunity missed to use that 3 billion along with a bit more to concentrate on public transport and renewable energy.

They could purchase extra carriages as most or the dart and commuter services are already at max capacity. I get that there will be a lead time on these but that is why it should be done now. Extend the rail service out to Navan at least, its mad to think in 2019 that there is no rail service for the people of Monaghan, Cavan or Donegal.

The midland peat bogs offer ample area for wind turbines and PV, there are hundreds of acres where these renewables could be installed today and not affect anyone. Even if there was a one or two turbines put on the outskirts of towns what would be the harm? I was flying from Croatia to Germany a couple of weeks ago on a cloudless day and was amazed to see all the wind turbines as i flew across the Austrian and German countryside. Nimbyism must only be an Irish thing.

Some countries in Europe really put us to shame in how they do things. You know the way the Spanish send their kids to us in the summers to learn English, we should be sending our kids to Germany, The Netherlands and Sweden to see how things could be done right to benefit everyone. These countries are decades ahead of us in their thinking. We could and should be copying what these countries do so well.

Germany now produce 41% of their energy through a combination of wind solar and bio-mass. They also are testing overhead charging on sections of the autobahn for hybrid or electric trucks to charge whilst they are driving.

Holland are the world's second largest food exporter, just drive around Holland and see all the greenhouses, where we have our worst land that basically grows rushes could we not have grants to build greenhouses on it to intensively grow fruit and vegetables? Also Holland has the more bikes than people, they have separate cycle tracks along most roads. 20% of Dutch kids cycle to school.

Sweden has one of the best health, education and social care systems in the world. Yes they pay high taxes but they get value for money. Our healthcare system is broken and the only solution the politicians have is to throw more money into the black hole.

Funny how you mention other countries who put us to shame. Quite possibly the only thing we lead the world in in terms of renewable energy is the integration of wind. Ireland at any instantaneous moment can meet 70% of its power needs with wind (System Non-Synchronous Penetration SNSP). Grid Operators from around the world come here to see how we have integrated such a high level of "variable" wind on our grid.

With regards to building onshore, Ireland has the capacity to power the whole of Europe and more with the wind resource we have off the South and West coast. We have the technology to build offshore wind further offshore so as to minimise environmental impact and keep locals happy that its not ruining their views. Offshore offers more secure and dependable power versus onshore (capacity factor).

Your comments on Germany are quite funny as there is huge backlash against the Energiewende move for local electricity production through wind. they have been incredibly good in the adoption of rooftop solar but their approach to wind has set them back and also angered all parties in the industry (the public, certain political parties, developers, Turbine manufacturers). they are only now correcting their mistakes by building large scale offshore wind 100km off the German North Sea coast.

Germany are indeed testing overhead lines for a 5 mile stretch on the autobahn but my god what a highly inefficient solution. Battery Electric Vehicles orr eve hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are better suited, and they are on the way. For example, Shenzhen has electrified their fleet of electric buses (16,000 in total) while China as a whole has approximately 420,000 electric buses on their roads. that is what we should be aiming for.

Finally, id like to bring attention to your comment on where Germany is getting its energy from. Germany has plans to retire its entire nuclear fleet by the mid to end of the 2020s (a non GHG emitting source of power). This may not seem like a bad thing until you see that Germany is retiring its nuclear fleet before its coal fleet, which is pencilled in to be retired by early 2030s

Hotblack Desiato · 09-10-2019 12:29pm

Geuze wrote: »

Overall, our income taxes are not high.

This has been shown again and again.

Are you overlooking USC which is not linked in any way to benefits? It's just a tax.

Our excise on beer is similar to the UK.

Yet the cost of on-licence and off-licence beer is substantially higher.
We have much higher excise on cider and wine. Excise on sparkling wine and sprits is scandalous.
I can buy a bottle of Irish whiskey in the Canaries for one-third of the price I can buy it in Dublin. That's madness.

Our PRSI is very, very low.

True but we have no pay-related benefit. You get little or nothing more out of the system than someone who has never worked in their life. That's very different in most other European countries - you get a substantial % of your pay at first, which tapers down over time. So genuine working people who lose their job are supported, and have a large incentive to find another job quickly. Our system supports the "no job for life" mentality and even gives extra benefits (Xmas bonus) the longer you manage to avoid work.

Antares35 · 09-10-2019 12:32pm

YFlyer wrote: »

Got to laugh at the smokers organising the fag runs.

Fair play to them sure. I don't smoke myself but sure f*ck it - why give all that money to the government when they are just going to p*ss it waay on HSE middle management doing sweet f*ck all? And sure aren't they keeping O'Leary in profit

Antares35 · 09-10-2019 12:34pm

Geuze wrote: »

We are not "taxed to the hilt".

Taxes here, as a share of GNI*, are about middling.

Not low, not high, about middling.

And what about the benefits we get for our taxes - are they middling too? One feckin dental visit a year...

LiamoSail · 09-10-2019 12:42pm

Geuze wrote: »

Overall, our income taxes are not high.

This has been shown again and again.

YES, the killer is that the top rate kicks in so early, at 35k.

VAT at 23% is a bit higher than typical across the EU, yes, although not the highest.

Our lower rate of VAT at 13.5% is also among the higher lower rates, yes.

Our excise on beer is similar to the UK.

Our fuel taxes are not the highest.

Our PRSI is very, very low.

Our higher rate of income tax kicks in at €35k. In England by way of comparison, it’s approx €50k.

Add to that we have USC and PRSI. End result being a marginal tax rate of close to 50%. It’s a ****ing scandalous rate to be paying.

Mad_maxx · 09-10-2019 1:06pm

scamalert wrote: »

Edgware wrote: »

A lot of these pensioners have been on the dole all their life before getting the old age pension. Check the flights going to the Canaries some day, full of pensioners. They're doing all right. Give them an extra fiver and they'll only use it to bribe the grandchildren to come around

this qualifies for most idiotic post of the year :cool:

Explain?

Mad_maxx · 09-10-2019 1:11pm

Geuze wrote: »

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

A grand a week after tax couple getting medical cards????

Don’t care what age they are

On that whack they can afford their own medical expenses

YES.

My parents earn 48k-49k approx.

They pay 8% tax.

They get:

two full med cards
two free travel passes
35 pm off elec / 420 pa
free TV licence

Is any country as generous?

Other countries may have more benefits, but they charge more income tax.

For 8% tax on 4,000 pm income, it's a very sweet deal.

Received by tens upon tens of thousands of pensioners.

You only have to read this thread or listen to any radio station, the Irish population supports the policy of spoiling pensioners, it's no surprise that politicians keep doing it

Edgware · 09-10-2019 1:21pm

scamalert wrote: »

this qualifies for most idiotic post of the year :cool:

The truth hurts. There are thousands in this country who have never worked in their life. Then they turn 65/66 get the O.A.P. and we are supposed to be sorry for them. No Sir, not me.

Keyzer · 09-10-2019 1:22pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Perhaps you should link to it?

Perhaps you should open google and look for the report yourself - unbelievable laziness.

Geuze · 09-10-2019 1:29pm

LiamoSail wrote: »

Our higher rate of income tax kicks in at €35k. In England by way of comparison, it’s approx €50k.

Add to that we have USC and PRSI. End result being a marginal tax rate of close to 50%. It’s a ****ing scandalous rate to be paying.

Yes.

48.5% MTR after 35k is crazy.

But it's also true that effective income tax rates are much lower.

Geuze · 09-10-2019 1:32pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

True but we have no pay-related benefit. You get little or nothing more out of the system than someone who has never worked in their life. That's very different in most other European countries - you get a substantial % of your pay at first, which tapers down over time. So genuine working people who lose their job are supported, and have a large incentive to find another job quickly. Our system supports the "no job for life" mentality and even gives extra benefits (Xmas bonus) the longer you manage to avoid work.

Yes.

Leo Varadker said he was a supporter of Social Insurance.

What I then expected was the following:

A bigger gap than 11 euro between the non-con pension and the SPC

A gap between JSB and JSA

Xmas bonus only for people on SI, not SA.

Mad_maxx · 09-10-2019 1:36pm

Edgware wrote: »

scamalert wrote: »

this qualifies for most idiotic post of the year :cool:

The truth hurts. There are thousands in this country who have never worked in their life. Then they turn 65/66 get the O.A.P. and we are supposed to be sorry for them. No Sir, not me.

We need to stop this endless soft headed eulogising of pensioners

Akabusi · 09-10-2019 3:48pm

marcos_94 wrote: »

Funny how you mention other countries who put us to shame. Quite possibly the only thing we lead the world in in terms of renewable energy is the integration of wind. Ireland at any instantaneous moment can meet 70% of its power needs with wind (System Non-Synchronous Penetration SNSP). Grid Operators from around the world come here to see how we have integrated such a high level of "variable" wind on our grid.

With regards to building onshore, Ireland has the capacity to power the whole of Europe and more with the wind resource we have off the South and West coast. We have the technology to build offshore wind further offshore so as to minimise environmental impact and keep locals happy that its not ruining their views. Offshore offers more secure and dependable power versus onshore (capacity factor).

Your comments on Germany are quite funny as there is huge backlash against the Energiewende move for local electricity production through wind. they have been incredibly good in the adoption of rooftop solar but their approach to wind has set them back and also angered all parties in the industry (the public, certain political parties, developers, Turbine manufacturers). they are only now correcting their mistakes by building large scale offshore wind 100km off the German North Sea coast.

Germany are indeed testing overhead lines for a 5 mile stretch on the autobahn but my god what a highly inefficient solution. Battery Electric Vehicles orr eve hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are better suited, and they are on the way. For example, Shenzhen has electrified their fleet of electric buses (16,000 in total) while China as a whole has approximately 420,000 electric buses on their roads. that is what we should be aiming for.

Finally, id like to bring attention to your comment on where Germany is getting its energy from. Germany has plans to retire its entire nuclear fleet by the mid to end of the 2020s (a non GHG emitting source of power). This may not seem like a bad thing until you see that Germany is retiring its nuclear fleet before its coal fleet, which is pencilled in to be retired by early 2030s

Good points Marcos.

I want to explain that they have been working on the whole package of options the wind is only one part of it.

Yes when it blows here we have more than enough wind, however as you know it can only be part of the solution unless we decide to use the excess electricity generated to pump water into giant reservoirs on the west coast for release to power hydro when the wind isn't blowing.

They also have a new stretch of the autobahn electrified near Hamburg for testing. I take you point that it may not be the most efficient solution.

The main point is they are trying things and for the most part doing a good job at it. We haven't.

marcos_94 · 09-10-2019 3:59pm

Akabusi wrote: »

The main point is they are trying things and for the most part doing a good job at it. We haven't.

I completely agree! Over time it gets quite depressing to see all the negative comments against Ireland and our, to date, lack of serious action against climate change. I try to highlight our vast amount of wind as I think its quite incredible we have achieved such a high penetration of wind on our grid system without the need for major storage.

I actually Ireland is in a great position to export vast amounts of clean energy to mainland Europe and the UK. Through this, we would be displacing huge amounts of our own agricultural emissions. One solution to reduce the amount of curtailed wind power is the deeper interconnection of national grids along with storage near high demand centres.

Im very interested to see how the overhead lines pan out as large German truck manufacturers such as Daimler and MAN are investing heavily in electric drivetrains for commercial vehicles

scamalert · 09-10-2019 4:10pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Explain?

explain what ? That according to poster pensioners are living, the dream life ? 250 avg a week for non contributory is f all.

blueshade · 09-10-2019 4:47pm

Keyzer wrote: »

Lol, quotes the daily mail.... lol

Lol, you can't disprove the facts in the article so you slate the source. Lol, you don't like losing the argument so you behave like a petulant teenager, lol. perhaps educate yourself a little with sources a little more to your liking, the facts will remain the same though.

Yer Da sells Avon · 09-10-2019 5:08pm

Antares35 wrote: »

Fair play to them sure. I don't smoke myself but sure f*ck it - why give all that money to the government when they are just going to p*ss it waay on HSE middle management doing sweet f*ck all? And sure aren't they keeping O'Leary in profit

Chemotherapy drugs are enormously expensive too. Paying taxes on your cigarettes is a good way of contributing in advance towards inevitable future health bills.

I'd sooner get annoyed about that than about single parents or the dole, tbh. The sheer entitlement of smoking your brains out, evading tobacco taxes and then expecting the state to pay tens of thousands for your treatment.

Idbatterim · 09-10-2019 5:13pm

hard to believe the world class welfare system spend only increased by a few hundred million! Absolute waste of money, every other area is far more worthy! another waste of several hundred million...

dxhound2005 · 09-10-2019 6:58pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

hard to believe the world class welfare system spend on increased by a few hundred million! Absolute waste of money, every other area is far more worthy! another waste of several hundred million...

It shouldn't be hard to believe. People are living longer, so there are more pensioners every year. They get the biggest slice of the welfare budget.

Budget 2020, Another tenner or is it twenty

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