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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Licence revoked on allegation

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Comments

  • #32
    slipperyox
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    As a side note.

    I believe a will left to the minister of finance cannot be contested.:)


  • #33
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    meathstevie wrote: »
    That still leaves the senior Garda with the deciding authority and responsibility unless they have made an error in their decision when the judge will tell them to correct it.
    I think we're on the same page, but just to clarify, they don't have to have made a mistake. The courts were introduced in the 2009 Act so refusals cannot be made arbitrarily. A Super/Chief Super will make their decision and even if they use legal sound reason the courts are still an avenue if the person feels it's wrong.

    IOW, and as discussed about the public safety issue, a high court case(s) ended with the judge saying that while public safety is paramount it cannot be used as grounds for refusal with no supporting evidence that there is an actual threat to public safety.
    You can’t say no, or yes, because you can. You have to explain why and document the reasoning for it.
    They always had to, since 2009, but were never "pushed" to do so. The Commissioner's updated guidelines clarified this and improved upon it by stating Supers/Chief Supers had to be concise and specific as to the grounds for their refusals.
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  • #34
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Could it be said in this case that there was evicence of intemperate behaviour ?


  • #35
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Possibly, but i'm not going to risk breaching technical contempt of court by second guessing the judgement/ruling.
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  • #36
    Brontosaurus
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Brontosaurus


    Burden of proof, innocent before proven guilty and property rights are alien concepts in Ireland, it would seem.


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  • #37
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Those are rights, firearm ownership is not a right. Under the law its a privilege and the law says specifically that a license can be revoked at any time for whatever reason the authorising person deems necessary.

    So in this case the Super would claim public safety and there is not a judge, as is evident by the OP, that would argue against that.
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  • #38
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    Brontosaurus wrote: »
    Burden of proof, innocent before proven guilty and property rights are alien concepts in Ireland, it would seem.

    The granting or revoking of a license is not a criminal matter. It’s an administrative decision that happens to be made by a senior Garda as that is who is appointed by law to make that decision.

    Appeals against that decision are dealt with by the District Court, again not as a criminal matter but as a review of a decision making process.

    Nobody will walk away from that District Court hearing with a conviction as it’s not a criminal trial. There may be criminal matters connected to the revoking of a license but that’s a different story altogether.

    If there’s no criminal issues at the basis of the refusal or revoking decision the worst that you can expect as the outcome of the hearing is a big bill and no license.


  • #39
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Liscensing Def...
    When the Govt takes away your right to do somthing and sells it back to you with lots of terms& conditions attached.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #40
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    When the Govt takes away your right...........
    No right to firearms. Only applies to America.
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  • #41
    Brontosaurus
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Brontosaurus


    Cass wrote: »
    No right to firearms. Only applies to America.

    Could argue that a firearm is your property. Which makes one question if we have any property rights in the first place.

    Licensing means you're essentially getting a lease for a firearm from the state, which can evidently be revoked at mere hearsay.


    But I suppose the same could be said for vehicles and anything else that requires a license.

    Even worse than that however, it has to be renewed every 3 years for firearms, and at any point they could arbitrarily decide you no longer "need" it, and if you wrongly get refused that's a lot of money and time needed in order to appeal that not everyone has.

    It is indeed essentially "You're lucky I'm even allowing you to have this thing, now pay up or I'll take it back".

    I mean of course we don't want any eejit being able to access any firearm, but one has to be careful about where you decide to draw the line.


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  • #42
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Brontosaurus wrote: »
    Could argue that a firearm is your property.
    It is your property. You can buy as many guns as you like, just not possess them without a license.
    Which makes one question if we have any property rights in the first place.
    Unlike a car where if you don't have a driver's license you can still have the car at your door firearms are legislated for in such a way that to possess one without a license is an offence.

    So firearms are not property in the "typical" way.
    Licensing means you're essentially getting a lease for a firearm from the state,
    No. It means they [Government] are saying they grant you the authority to possess a firearm. You own the firearm so it cannot be leased, loaned or borrowed to you by anyone.
    which can evidently be revoked at mere hearsay.
    In essence, yes.
    But I suppose the same could be said for vehicles and anything else that requires a license.
    As said above firearms stand alone in their status as property and the ability to possess them via licensing.
    Even worse than that however, it has to be renewed every 3 years for firearms, and at any point they could arbitrarily decide you no longer "need" it,
    I wouldn't say arbitrarily, and not splitting hairs, but the law is clear that a good reason must be provided if a license is revoked and that reason must be given in writing to the licensee.
    and if you wrongly get refused that's a lot of money and time needed in order to appeal that not everyone has.
    Its a lot of hassle alright and the money aspect can get high, but there is also the possibility of being awarded costs if you win your case and the judge grants you costs. But that is not a guarantee.
    It is indeed essentially "You're lucky I'm even allowing you to have this thing, now pay up or I'll take it back".
    In a simplified way, yes.
    I mean of course we don't want any eejit being able to access any firearm, but one has to be careful about where you decide to draw the line.
    Hence the licensing process. It is not a foolproof method but it will eliminate the numpties from the off and those that are successful will be under constant scrutiny.
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  • #43
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Cass wrote: »
    No right to firearms. Only applies to America.
    No need to be so pendantic... It can apply to many things that are liscensed.:)

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #44
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    No need to be so pendantic...
    Pedantic - excessively concerned with minor details or rules; overscrupulous.

    Its far from a minor detail. The Americans have the second amendment, we have no such constitutional right, nor any right to firearms through any of the acts, SIs or even EU directives.

    So, far from being pedantic, it's a major point. If firearm ownership was a right we could demand most things instead of begging for them or hoping they're not taken away.
    It can apply to many things that are liscensed.:)
    Such as?

    I've seen this said in America where their constitution gives them such rights, but no other country in the world has the same rights as Americans, or more accurately in the same language/vein as America.

    So what rights are the Government taking from us and "selling back" under the guise of licensing?

    BTW that is not a trick question. I cannot think of one but if you have any or believe any exist i'd be interested to know as a right is constitutional given and cannot be taken from you.
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