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Government considering dedicated Transport Police

2

Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,123 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I don't get the DART regularly anymore but I used to get it daily.

    I thought back then that there were security personnel working on the DART line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    I don't get the DART regularly anymore but I used to get it daily.

    I thought back then that there were security personnel working on the DART line.

    There are but not on every train.

    Also lot of linked up units where can't walk through all carriages.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    If they do go for a transport police it needs to have the same power, but be separate of the Garda much like the BTP.

    Officers specifically trained to deal with incidents on the railway (PTS cards etc).

    Keeping them separate will also mean that they are 100% dedicated to that role and are not going to have to deal with other issues.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    If they do go for a transport police it needs to have the same power, but be separate of the Garda much like the BTP.

    Officers specifically trained to deal with incidents on the railway (PTS cards etc).

    Keeping them separate will also mean that they are 100% dedicated to that role and are not going to have to deal with other issues.

    I don't think we have a railway network big enough to justify it's own dedicated police force like the BTP. As I'm sure you're aware Britain unlike most countries in Europe doesn't a single national police force but rather a series of regional police forces.

    I think there should be a Garda unit set aside to police rail and light rail systems obviously with proper railway related training. Perhaps could they could have a unit in most major stations such as Connolly, Pearse, Hueston even Busaras aswell and units patrolling both Luas lines and the Dart. You could also have some on the problem services such as those with an alcohol ban and services notorious for anti social behaviour.

    A dedicated police would cost too much to set up and would largely duplicate AGS as it would need to have it's own commisoner, detectives, inspectors, superintendents and sergeants which would be a waste of resources for a small enough railway network.

    Also then you got the issue of if there is to be an incident across the road from say a unit based in Connolly which would be across the road from a transport police unit but they would have to wait for a Garda response as the transport police would be leaving their jurisdiction likewise there could be an incident on board a train, on the track or in the station and the Gardai could be nearer the incident but yet they would have wait for s transport police unit to respond which might be further away. I can't see it being all that practical.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I don't think we have a railway network big enough to justify it's own dedicated police force like the BTP. As I'm sure you're aware Britain unlike most countries in Europe doesn't a single national police force but rather a series of regional police forces.

    I think there should be a Garda unit set aside to police rail and light rail systems obviously with proper railway related training. Perhaps could they could have a unit in most major stations such as Connolly, Pearse, Hueston even Busaras aswell and units patrolling both Luas lines and the Dart. You could also have some on the problem services such as those with an alcohol ban and services notorious for anti social behaviour.

    A dedicated police would cost too much to set up and would largely duplicate AGS as it would need to have it's own commisoner, detectives, inspectors, superintendents and sergeants which would be a waste of resources for a small enough railway network.

    Also then you got the issue of if there is to be an incident across the road from say a unit based in Connolly which would be across the road from a transport police unit but they would have to wait for a Garda response as the transport police would be leaving their jurisdiction likewise there could be an incident on board a train, on the track or in the station and the Gardai could be nearer the incident but yet they would have wait for s transport police unit to respond which might be further away. I can't see it being all that practical.

    The BTP has one law but 2 ways of doing it. English law or Scottish for offences.

    And BTP officers can still intervene and have full powers of arrest if they see a crime being committed.

    The whole plan of amalgamation of the BTP in Scotland with Police Scotland was shelved because they knew that officers were going to get called away.

    I have tried to find a post on the UK rail forum about why the BTP is valuable. Suicide was one example. The line is shut down because there are local police running around on a live railway. The DART was probably shut down the other night for the same reason. Garda on the tracks with no PTS cert.

    An Irish version of the BTP could, with training, get trains moving quicker.

    And an Irish transport police would cover all public transport. Trains, Luas, (DB & BE in certain cases). Everything thing from suicide to a bit graffiti.

    And if you were to join the existing airport and port police to form a new transport unit, most of the infrastructure is there.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The BTP has one law but 2 ways of doing it. English law or Scottish for offences.

    And BTP officers can still intervene and have full powers of arrest if they see a crime being committed.

    The whole plan of amalgamation of the BTP in Scotland with Police Scotland was shelved because they knew that officers were going to get called away.

    I have tried to find a post on the UK rail forum about why the BTP is valuable. Suicide was one example. The line is shut down because there are local police running around on a live railway. The DART was probably shut down the other night for the same reason. Garda on the tracks with no PTS cert.

    An Irish version of the BTP could, with training, get trains moving quicker.

    And an Irish transport police would cover all public transport. Trains, Luas, (DB & BE in certain cases). Everything thing from suicide to a bit graffiti.

    And if you were to join the existing airport and port police to form a new transport unit, most of the infrastructure is there.

    I see the need for such a force in a country like Britain with a large railway network but you have to remember here in Ireland we only have 362km of mainline track compared to nearly 16,000km of track in the UK so there's a fairly considerable difference between the UK and Ireland in terms of the need for a transport police. I'm not denying that the BTP is very suitable force for the nature of the British railway network but I just think it would be suitable here as we are a small country with a small network.

    There is no reason why a Garda unit to tackle transport couldn't be set up and I believe it would be more cost effective and easier to set up than a separate police. No reason why members of dedicated Garda unit couldn't have PTS pass and proper training.

    In the case of accidents and one unders you'd also have the issue of firefighters and paramedics on the tracks with no PTS certs not just police officers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    You do see the police here in Sydney at the train stations with dogs, on the trains checking tickets and maintaining a presence on the lines where there is a greater chance of anti social behavior. I think that would be better, to have a section within AGS dedicated to policing transport.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I see the need for such a force in a country like Britain with a large railway network but you have to remember here in Ireland we only have 362km of mainline track compared to nearly 16,000km of track in the UK so there's a fairly considerable difference between the UK and Ireland in terms of the need for a transport police. I'm not denying that the BTP is very suitable force for the nature of the British railway network but I just think it would be suitable here as we are a small country with a small network.

    There is no reason why a Garda unit to tackle transport couldn't be set up and I believe it would be more cost effective and easier to set up than a separate police. No reason why members of dedicated Garda unit couldn't have PTS pass and proper training.

    In the case of accidents and one unders you'd also have the issue of firefighters and paramedics on the tracks with no PTS certs not just police officers.

    In the case of one unders.. The fire/ambulances know to wait. I will dig out that post.

    How would a Garda with PTS deal with a incident if they were sitting with a 89 year old, taking ab aggravated burglary statement?

    Drop what they do? The BTP got that TOX guy in London for £100,000s of damage to transport.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Daemonic


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    ... here in Ireland we only have 362km of mainline track ....
    362Km can't be right, Dublin to Cork is 260Km by road so assume the rail distance is similar.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    It's about 2000km, plus the Luas system and city buses which would have a need for policing. We desperately need proper policing in stations and on vehicles, AGS are not going to be the provider of it

    It would be impossible to even schedule PTS training for sufficient AGS members for that to be an option


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Daemonic wrote: »
    362Km can't be right, Dublin to Cork is 260Km by road so assume the rail distance is similar.

    Sorry read the wrong stat correction is 2,600km of track


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    In the case of one unders.. The fire/ambulances know to wait. I will dig out that post.

    How would a Garda with PTS deal with a incident if they were sitting with a 89 year old, taking ab aggravated burglary statement?

    Drop what they do? The BTP got that TOX guy in London for £100,000s of damage to transport.

    It would be a Garda unit dedicated to transport incidents they wouldn't respond to other non transport. You'd get the same benefit of a transport police without the cost of setting up a brand new police with it's own commisoner, detectives, sergeants and inspectors.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    It would be a Garda unit dedicated to transport incidents they wouldn't respond to other non transport. You'd get the same benefit of a transport police without the cost of setting up a brand new police with it's own commisoner, detectives, sergeants and inspectors.

    We all know that if they are part of the Gardai, they would soon be pulled off transport duties and end up doing "regular" duties, just like the Traffic Division.

    We need to keep them separate in order for them to stay focused on the task at hand.

    As for the comments about costs and overheads. Well we have a separate Airport Police and Harbour Police and their overheads, so I don't see why setting up another service would be a major problem.

    If you want to save a little on the costs, you could merge the Airport Police and Harbour Police into a new Transport Police Service.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    bk wrote: »
    As for the comments about costs and overheads. Well we have a separate Airport Police and Harbour Police and their overheads, so I don't see why setting up another service would be a major problem.

    If you want to save a little on the costs, you could merge the Airport Police and Harbour Police into a new Transport Police Service.

    The Airport and harbour police forces are tiny with limited ability to investigate crime. Also they have been around quite a while I think the Dun Laoghaire harbour police for example date back to 1836 making them the oldest uniformed force in the state. While the airport and port police forces have the power of arrest they then have to hand suspects over to the Gardai for questioning afaik.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    The Airport and harbour police forces are tiny with limited ability to investigate crime. Also they have been around quite a while I think the Dun Laoghaire harbour police for example date back to 1836 making them the oldest uniformed force in the state. While the airport and port police forces have the power of arrest they then have to hand suspects over to the Gardai for questioning afaik.

    I know all that, the point is to give them as examples of organisations that also have all those overheads and costs. If a relatively tiny Harbour and Airport Police can exist, then there is certainly no reason that a larger Transport Police can't exist.

    BTW you mentioned a transport police needing, "commisoner, detectives, sergeants and inspectors", with the exception of a commissioner, all those others would be needed anyway even if they were a separate division within the Gardai.

    The only real extra cost would maybe be IT and HR and if you wanted you could share those with the Gardai, while keeping everything else separate. Many county councils do that throughout the country.

    I think people are greatly overestimating how much it would cost as a separate division.

    Even if it was a division within the Gardai, you'd still want them to hire extra Gardai/Transport Police rather then taking from other divisions. You'd still want to open a new police station at/nearby Hueston. You still want to train them up in the specifics of working around rail. You'd still need detectives, sergeants and inspectors. All those costs would still be the same either way.

    The only question would it be more effective if it was independent or not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    bk wrote: »
    I know all that, the point is to give them as examples of organisations that also have all those overheads and costs. If a relatively tiny Harbour and Airport Police can exist, then there is certainly no reason that a larger Transport Police can't exist.

    BTW you mentioned a transport police needing, "commisoner, detectives, sergeants and inspectors", with the exception of a commissioner, all those others would be needed anyway even if they were a separate division within the Gardai.

    The only real extra cost would maybe be IT and HR and if you wanted you could share those with the Gardai, while keeping everything else separate. Many county councils do that throughout the country.

    I think people are greatly overestimating how much it would cost as a separate division.

    Even if it was a division within the Gardai, you'd still want them to hire extra Gardai/Transport Police rather then taking from other divisions. You'd still want to open a new police station at/nearby Hueston. You still want to train them up in the specifics of working around rail. You'd still need detectives, sergeants and inspectors. All those costs would still be the same either way.

    The only question would it be more effective if it was independent or not.

    You'd need Sergeants alright and perhaps some Superintendents for the force but I doubt you'd need detectives and inspectors as these roles could be shared with regular Gardai.

    No reason why you couldn't assign a mixture of serving Gardai and ones fresh out of Templemore to a transport police unit with extra training for rail. I don't think it would really make a huge difference if it was independent but I think but I think a Garda unit would be more cost effective and would work in the same way if done right. A Garda unit may have better public relations than a new police force too.

    Also a with a new police force you'd mostly have to train up all new officers bar ones who moved from AGS, the PSNI and ones who were merged in from the harbour/airport police forces. You'd need a new training centre whereas with a Garda unit it could all be done in Templemore and on IE property.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    In the UK BTP cadets train alongside other police cadets in whatever police force college is local. They then undergo extra training (PTS etc).

    For example, the Scottish Police College in Tullyalan trains all officers for Police Scotland and and BTP officers that will be based in Scotland.

    If the same were to be applied here, any ITP officer would train to the same standard as a Garda in Templemore first.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    If we had transport police they might focus on the real issues, like that bus driver convicted last week for killing a cyclist( but not for manslaughter because thats too much responsibility to heap on a person driving a multi tonne vehicle into a defenceless person)

    Every day I cycle in Dublin, I see bus and coach drivers driving in mandatory cycle lanes
    When I used to work near the Swan on Aungier st. Dublin, I saw a bus driver go through red lights every other day
    Irish rail boast about the number of fare dodgers they get but never mention any convictions or even prosecutions for those drivers who crash into bridges


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    If we had transport police they might focus on the real issues, like that bus driver convicted last week for killing a cyclist( but not for manslaughter because thats too much responsibility to heap on a person driving a multi tonne vehicle into a defenceless person)

    Every day I cycle in Dublin, I see bus and coach drivers driving in mandatory cycle lanes
    When I used to work near the Swan on Aungier st. Dublin, I saw a bus driver go through red lights every other day
    Irish rail boast about the number of fare dodgers they get but never mention any convictions or even prosecutions for those drivers who crash into bridges

    Had has a transport police got to do with cyclists and bus drivers. Transport police forces or police units like we are talking about here typically only police rail infrastructure such as stations, trains and track while road is usually governed by traffic police ie the Garda Traffic Corps.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    If we had transport police they might focus on the real issues, like that bus driver convicted last week for killing a cyclist( but not for manslaughter because thats too much responsibility to heap on a person driving a multi tonne vehicle into a defenceless person)

    Every day I cycle in Dublin, I see bus and coach drivers driving in mandatory cycle lanes
    When I used to work near the Swan on Aungier st. Dublin, I saw a bus driver go through red lights every other day
    Irish rail boast about the number of fare dodgers they get but never mention any convictions or even prosecutions for those drivers who crash into bridges

    They are traffic issues not transport. Google the British Transport Police.

    This is what we are talking about. An Irish equivalent. Cyclists need not be concerned.

    Cyclists are as thick as car drivers. I hate RT but here is a link of a cyclist breaking a red and audible alarms at a LC in the UK.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r2BQFpp8P0s


    This person was lucky. If they were not, there could be 1000+ body parts spread over a 1-3 mile stretch.

    And the transport police would need to find every last bit.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭n!ghtmancometh


    bk wrote: »
    I know all that, the point is to give them as examples of organisations that also have all those overheads and costs. If a relatively tiny Harbour and Airport Police can exist, then there is certainly no reason that a larger Transport Police can't exist.

    BTW you mentioned a transport police needing, "commisoner, detectives, sergeants and inspectors", with the exception of a commissioner, all those others would be needed anyway even if they were a separate division within the Gardai.

    The only real extra cost would maybe be IT and HR and if you wanted you could share those with the Gardai, while keeping everything else separate. Many county councils do that throughout the country.

    I think people are greatly overestimating how much it would cost as a separate division.

    Even if it was a division within the Gardai, you'd still want them to hire extra Gardai/Transport Police rather then taking from other divisions. You'd still want to open a new police station at/nearby Hueston. You still want to train them up in the specifics of working around rail. You'd still need detectives, sergeants and inspectors. All those costs would still be the same either way.

    The only question would it be more effective if it was independent or not.

    Think you're underestimating the cost. Airport Police and Harbour Police have tiny areas to police so only need one station, a few vehicles and a limited number of supervising officers and regular beat officers. For a properly equipped transport police we would need multiples of that, then you would have to decide if the transport police would actually hold and process prisoners, execute bench warrants of people they come across who have them, take them to court, give evidence in court (this all takes a lot of time, usually OT, so money) and all the stuff that harbour and airport police do not do. If they don't, then Garda budget would have to be accordingly increased to deal with those situations. I think it would be quite expensive to do.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Think you're underestimating the cost. Airport Police and Harbour Police have tiny areas to police so only need one station, a few vehicles and a limited number of supervising officers and regular beat officers. For a properly equipped transport police we would need multiples of that, then you would have to decide if the transport police would actually hold and process prisoners, execute bench warrants of people they come across who have them, take them to court, give evidence in court (this all takes a lot of time, usually OT, so money) and all the stuff that harbour and airport police do not do. If they don't, then Garda budget would have to be accordingly increased to deal with those situations. I think it would be quite expensive to do.

    You really wouldn't need many stations. Just two would nicely cover the Dublin Region. One at/near Hueston and Connolly.

    At Connolly, they would have access to DART, Northern line, Maynooth Line, Red Luas Line and Busaras and only a short distance to all the buses at O'Connell St, Quays and Green Luas line. And of course Store Street Garda station is right there and if there was space they could be housed there or at Connolly if not.

    At Hueston you can cover the Cork line, Red Luas line, lots of the buses heading to the East of the city.

    No one is saying that they wouldn't work with and have a close relationship with the Gardai. Gardai could still of course respond to an incident on a bus if they are closer or if a transport police offer arrested some one further out, they could drop them off to the nearest Garda station.

    It is more about having a force that is completely focused on and dedicated to policing public transport and the unique issues it experiences.

    If they are another division in the Gardai, I can guarantee they will be pulled off to other areas in no time and we will be back at square one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    The way the transportation network is at the moment it is only inevitable before something like this needs to be established. The best way of setting it up would be to have no associated links to STT who currently do the trains and luas as security guards only.

    Management and boards can established within the Department of Justice as it will be governed by that Department.


    For such a force it would require a complaints commission which needs to set up separate from GSOC.

    As for IT I believe it is a simple link of a Tetra based channel as all law/security enforcement are currently using it. The UK currently use a three way channel with Transport police/Regular police and PCOS's who are employed by the council. If an incident somehow comes to attention of all three agencies they refer to the three way channel.

    With transport police it can work independently just like people working in the airport immgratation areas. They are Dept of Justice Clerical officers/Border agents and are not affiliated with anybody other than Justice and immigration. The officers in immgration interlink the investigations with An Garda Siochana so that would be a great template to build on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    bk wrote: »
    If they are another division in the Gardai, I can guarantee they will be pulled off to other areas in no time and we will be back at square one.

    I would assume such a unit would have to be funded by either or a mixture of CIE, IE, DoT, NTA, TII and/or Transdev also the DAA, DLHC and DPC (if airport and harbour police were to be included) rather than by the DoJ. I would sincerely hope that the organisations mentioned above would be holding AGS fully to account and ensuring that adquete Garda cover is ensured at all times. Just like the way concert promoters have to pay for their own Garda cover and Network Rail and TOCs fund the BTP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    It would only make sense if a transport police was funded through the Department of Transport Vote. Separate budget, reporting lines and accounting officer.

    Transport policing is not and never will be a priority for the Department of Justice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    It would only make sense if a transport police was funded through the Department of Transport Vote. Separate budget, reporting lines and accounting officer.

    Transport policing is not and never will be a priority for the Department of Justice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Keeping them far FAR away from Templemore would also be advantageous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    I agree there is other priorities for justice. It won't be set up in the near future knowing our government (past & present) maybe not at all. They cannot even run a reserve force as it is so this is something out of sorts for them to set up.

    I do believe law enforcement is and should be kept under the remit of Justice. For better workings in court and using the DPP handling clerk's like Gardai do. Garda services centre would need to work Transport police given any any arrest and conviction and fines that are required for pulse. Pulse is bought and administered by Dept of Justice this wouldn't and will not be shared externally so I can't imagine NTA or anyone CIE have any sort of access for ops reasons. I can't imagine how a transportation policing system could work with Gardai requiring this information also.

    Internally conflicts of interests would most definitely arise considering as public transportation strikes that would have an impact policing, where as AGS/PSNI cannot strike. I believe Policing cannot fall under NTA as this would mean that Union's and boards and it's own separate Court appearance officers would need to be separate yet work in tandem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,372 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog




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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    I was assaulted recently by a taxi driver while doing my job.

    I kid you not I waited 3hrs30mins for Gardaì.


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